House Stark of Harrenhal (long, but with TLDR summary)

[Mladen]

King Robert never acknowledged Mya; even she doesn't appear to know who her father is. Alayne, by contrast, has the Lord of Harrenhal saying, "here's my darling daughter."

So, everyone around Mya knows who her father is, but not she? Quite unlikely. Yes, Robert never acknowledged Mya, but let we see those that did, like, for instance, Ned and Jon. Jon had no hopes of having any sort of power in Winterfell, and it was that way with reason. No matter whether LF acknowledged her, she, for any suitors is nothing more but a pretty face. And we already know, that pretty face is not enough.

[Lady Pounce of Whiskerrun]

He is heir of Eyrie, entire Vale and the title Warden of the North. First in line. And she is, bastard of Lord of Harrenhal. No matter who her father is, the difference in their statuses is huge.

Harry is Robert Arryn's heir right now, but Littlefinger is the only one (in my opinion) who seems to think he will actually inherit. The Lords Declarant are all concerned with Robert's well-being, and Yohn Royce wants to take him as a ward so he can grow into a great lord like Jon Arryn--they expect Robert Arryn to grow up, marry, and father children of his own.

Shortly after Catelyn was born, I doubt any of the River Lords thought, "Wow, she's the heir to Riverrun!" At that time, she was, of course, just like Harry is the heir to The Eyrie. But I suspect the River Lords assumed Lord Hoster and his wife would have more children, one of whom could be a son, so that Catelyn might or might not inherit her father's castle.

I apologize for giving a somewhat strained example, but my point is that I don't think Harry being the heir to The Eyrie is as big a deal as you appear to--which is fine, we can agree to disagree.

Also, I assume you meant he would become Warden of the East, not the North...?

Lastly, would you agree that being a lord's bastard carries greater prestige than being a peasant's bastard? And would you also agree that being the child of a great house carries greater prestige than being the child of a minor house? If so, Alayne "wins" on both those fronts, being the daughter of the Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Paramount of the Trident.

Harry is legitimate, but he's the child of a second son (I'm guessing, since his father is titled "Ser" rather than "Lord") of a minor house from the Vale. So, I still don't think whatever gap exists between their statuses is that great--if it were (in my opinion, obviously), I don't think Lady Waynwood would have agreed to the betrothal, gold or not.

[Lady Pounce of Whiskerrun]

So, everyone around Mya knows who her father is, but not she? Quite unlikely. Yes, Robert never acknowledged Mya, but let we see those that did, like, for instance, Ned and Jon.

The only time we hear Mya talk about her father, she mentions him throwing her in the air and catching her; she wasn't afraid because she knew he'd always be there--until one day, he wasn't. She doesn't give any indication that she knew he became king.

Robert certainly knew he was her father, as did Ned and, one would imagine, Jon Arryn. Mya's mother, certainly. But who else did? Did Mya's mother tell her? I don't see any confirmation of that in the text (please just let me know if there's something I'm missing), so I have assumed that since Robert was so young, and since his guardian (Jon Arryn) had so much power and influence, the situation was kept pretty quiet. I could certainly be wrong, though!

[Veltigar]

Gentlemen, if I may suggest, you could carry on discussion by opening another thread or by PMs. Unless of course you have something to say that is related to the topic at hand.

How the hell is what juanml82 (bluntly) said not relevant to this thread? Almost your entire OP consists of “foreshadowing” to prove your point. juanml82 questioned the validity of that what you consider to be foreshadowing and as a result to that he also questioned the validity of the conclusion you reached (namely Sansa as lady of Harrenhal). In my post I merely confessed to sharing his view on the matter (e.g. the Crown/bat thing, the winged wold/dream thing, etc. is not foreshadowing).

You can’t just tell people with a contrary opinion to your own to bug off, if you do that a thread just devolves into a circle jerk (pardon my French). And I’m sure that that isn’t your intention.

[Veltigar]

Harry is Robert Arryn's heir right now, but Littlefinger is the only one (in my opinion) who seems to think he will actually inherit. The Lords Declarant are all concerned with Robert's well-being, and Yohn Royce wants to take him as a ward so he can grow into a great lord like Jon Arryn--they expect Robert Arryn to grow up, marry, and father children of his own.

I think the fact that LF efforts to hide SR weakness is a testimony to your claim. If SR appears to be a normal (although a bit sickly) boy, the chances are much smaller for one of the other lords to try and lay claim to HtH. They will all be too busy trying to get their hands on SR, while LF unknowingly snags the real price from underneath their noses. That’s a classic LF move.

[para]

Interesting questions. Harrenhal is also materialistic satisfaction, but also it gives Sansa a freedom and control over her own life. With Harrenhal, she is neither claim nor anything else. As ruling Lady, Sansa gets the freedom to choose, and that is something she desires above all else.

To do what end? To choose what? I mean let's go with your highly speculative assumption that Jon won't have anything better to do than be Rickon's regent - that his probably Targaryen heritage, his NW vows, his links to the Wildlings, his being made heir to the North by Robb, his probable claim to the Iron Throne itself won't matter at all. That his final fate will be neither death nor glory - just playing nursemaid to lil' Rickon. Whatever. Let's just go with that improbability for a second here.

You think either Jon or Rickon will force Sansa to do anything that she wouldn't want to do? That Sansa would consider either them a risk to her free will? That she would be so afraid of the things that Jon (come on, let's just discount one-digit-age kid here) would make her do that she would rather be forever alone in a cursed ruin? Jon-who just looks like her father-Snow?

IMO, Sansa and Jon would personality transplants first and that's just heaping speculation onto speculation.

But here is a fun question - would your theory work if Sansa was to hold Harrenhal without actually ever living there? Or does the Virgin Queen of Harrenhal Theory require residency?

[J. Stargaryen]

How the hell is what juanml82 (bluntly) said not relevant to this thread? Almost your entire OP consists of “foreshadowing” to prove your point. juanml82 questioned the validity of that what you consider to be foreshadowing and as a result to that he also questioned the validity of the conclusion you reached (namely Sansa as lady of Harrenhal). In my post I merely confessed to sharing his view on the matter (e.g. the Crown/bat thing, the winged wold/dream thing, etc. is not foreshadowing).

You can’t just tell people with a contrary opinion to your own to bug off, if you do that a thread just devolves into a circle jerk (pardon my French). And I’m sure that that isn’t your intention.

To paraphrase, you're reading too much into it!, is the lowest form of discussion possible on these forums. And that's essentially what you and juanml82 are saying when you bestow upon us gems like: "foreshadowing fever" and "a coat is just a coat," etc.

If you think there is a problem with the analysis, show us why. Don't just tell us that there's a problem by using a catch phrase and then expect that the rest of us are going to appreciate your so called contributions.

[Veltigar]

Harry is legitimate, but he's the child of a second son (I'm guessing, since his father is titled "Ser" rather than "Lord") of a minor house from the Vale. So, I still don't think whatever gap exists between their statuses is that great--if it were (in my opinion, obviously), I don't think Lady Waynwood would have agreed to the betrothal, gold or not.

Not so sure about the last line. I think your assessment of the status of HtH and Alayne is correct but even if their actually was a huge gap in status I think the Waynwoods would try and maximize their profit by selling his hand to the highest bidder (or if they had a suitable candidate and think it would be to their advantage marry him off to one of their own). Technically, HtH is not part of their House so they don’t really owe him anything. They want to keep him on their good side just in case but at the same time they want to get everything they can out of the deal.

[Veltigar]

To paraphrase, you're reading too much into it!, is the lowest form of discussion possible on these forums. And that's essentially what you and juanml82 are saying when you bestow upon us gems like: "foreshadowing fever" and "a coat is just a coat," etc.

If you think there is a problem with the analysis, show us why. Don't just tell us that there's a problem by using a catch phrase and then expect that the rest of us are going to appreciate your so called contributions.

Even in those pretty short posts there were some examples already. The Crown/Whent sigil comparison for example is flawed. You can't take a random overlap in numbers and present that as foreshadowing. Otherwise I could just come out and predict a love match between Daenerys Targaryen (who's heavily associated with the number three) and Sandor Clegane (who shockingly sports three hounds on a black field).

There is more but it’s late here. But I’ll come back together and see if I can find the time to check the entire thread out.

[Mladen]

Harry is Robert Arryn's heir right now, but Littlefinger is the only one (in my opinion) who seems to think he will actually inherit. The Lords Declarant are all concerned with Robert's well-being, and Yohn Royce wants to take him as a ward so he can grow into a great lord like Jon Arryn--they expect Robert Arryn to grow up, marry, and father children of his own.

Shortly after Catelyn was born, I doubt any of the River Lords thought, "Wow, she's the heir to Riverrun!" At that time, she was, of course, just like Harry is the heir to The Eyrie. But I suspect the River Lords assumed Lord Hoster and his wife would have more children, one of whom could be a son, so that Catelyn might or might not inherit her father's castle.

I apologize for giving a somewhat strained example, but my point is that I don't think Harry being the heir to The Eyrie is as big a deal as you appear to--which is fine, we can agree to disagree.

Also, I assume you meant he would become Warden of the East, not the North...?

Lastly, would you agree that being a lord's bastard carries greater prestige than being a peasant's bastard? And would you also agree that being the child of a great house carries greater prestige than being the child of a minor house? If so, Alayne "wins" on both those fronts, being the daughter of the Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Paramount of the Trident.

Harry is legitimate, but he's the child of a second son (I'm guessing, since his father is titled "Ser" rather than "Lord") of a minor house from the Vale. So, I still don't think whatever gap exists between their statuses is that great--if it were (in my opinion, obviously), I don't think Lady Waynwood would have agreed to the betrothal, gold or not.

Actually, Yohn Royce organized the Tourney in which Harry won, and we know of some rumors coming to LF. It seems that all of them are well aware of who is inheriting Eyrie. Comparison with Tully situation is wrong, since Hoster and Minisa were healthy married coupled, while here we have a sick boy, of whose fragility everyone is aware. So, it seems that Vale lords are perfectly aware of entire situation with LF and SR.

Your logic is also fallible in comparing Alayne's and Harry's status. LF comes from House on lowest place on social ladder. Yes, he is lord of Harrenhal, but Alayne, herself, is nothing but pretty face. And we know all about marriages in Westeros. It is never about pretty face. So, in no way Alayne is in higher social rank than Harry. And pardon me, but you don't realize the gap between bastard and heir of one of 7 Kingdoms?

The only time we hear Mya talk about her father, she mentions him throwing her in the air and catching her; she wasn't afraid because she knew he'd always be there--until one day, he wasn't. She doesn't give any indication that she knew he became king.

Robert certainly knew he was her father, as did Ned and, one would imagine, Jon Arryn. Mya's mother, certainly. But who else did? Did Mya's mother tell her? I don't see any confirmation of that in the text (please just let me know if there's something I'm missing), so I have assumed that since Robert was so young, and since his guardian (Jon Arryn) had so much power and influence, the situation was kept pretty quiet. I could certainly be wrong, though!

Sansa was told by one of servants... Mya's parentage is well known in the Vale.

To do what end? To choose what? I mean let's go with your highly speculative assumption that Jon won't have anything better to do than be Rickon's regent - that his probably Targaryen heritage, his NW vows, his links to the Wildlings, his being made heir to the North by Robb, his probable claim to the Iron Throne itself won't matter at all. That his final fate will be neither death nor glory - just playing nursemaid to lil' Rickon. Whatever. Let's just go with that improbability for a second here.

Regarding Jon, we all know the current status of NW. It is on lowest rank ever, not to mention that the traitors who stabbed Jon will start fighting with both wildings and Queen's men. I am not speculating anything, I am just connecting the known facts:

1. Robb made Jon legitimate

2. Targeryen throne already have 2 contenders

3. Rickon is alive and he needs guidance

4. Night watch is done, once the battle on the Wall starts

5. Wildings have closest ties with Jon

6. The Others are coming

7. Jon would never go against any of the Ned's children in pursuit for claim

Simply, being Rickon's regent, and uniting all the fractions, since he is the only man to do that in war against Others is the natural course of action.

You think either Jon or Rickon will force Sansa to do anything that she wouldn't want to do? That Sansa would consider either them a risk to her free will? That she would be so afraid of the things that Jon (come on, let's just discount one-digit-age kid here) would make her do that she would rather be forever alone in a cursed ruin? Jon-who just looks like her father-Snow?

You are oversimplifying things. It's not black or white in this situation. But, Sansa is of highest birth, a maiden, and possibly will have her annulment. Once she gets that, every Northern lord will want her as a bride. That of course implies that her brothers will have to make that choice for her, like Rickard did for Lyanna, Ned for Sansa, or Catelyn and Robb for Arya. And that is what we could expect one day. Not to force her on marrying, but to ask of her to do that. Sansa's freedom is in her choice, as was many times said. Not her claim...

But here is a fun question - would your theory work if Sansa was to hold Harrenhal without actually ever living there? Or does the Virgin Queen of Harrenhal Theory require residency?

In theory, yes, but I believe that Sansa will live in Harrenhall and be the ruling Lady of the castle at the end.

To paraphrase, you're reading too much into it!, is the lowest form of discussion possible on these forums. And that's essentially what you and juanml82 are saying when you bestow upon us gems like: "foreshadowing fever" and "a coat is just a coat," etc.

If you think there is a problem with the analysis, show us why. Don't just tell us that there's a problem by using a catch phrase and then expect that the rest of us are going to appreciate your so called contributions.

Thank you very much for this. I appreciate it...

Even in those pretty short posts there were some examples already. The Crown/Whent sigil comparison for example is flawed. You can't take a random overlap in numbers and present that as foreshadowing. Otherwise I could just come out and predict a love match between Daenerys Targaryen (who's heavily associated with the number three) and Sandor Clegane (who shockingly sports three hounds on a black field).

There is more but it’s late here. But I’ll come back together and see if I can find the time to check the entire thread out.

And the bats/swords is something. Numerical foreshadowing isn't the only element of this theory, and neither is the most important. You see, I can discuss when someone points out things like this, but I can't and won't discuss where the only intent is to insult someone through condescending tone...

[J. Stargaryen]

Even in those pretty short posts there were some examples already. The Crown/Whent sigil comparison for example is flawed. You can't take a random overlap in numbers and present that as foreshadowing. Otherwise I could just come out and predict a love match between Daenerys Targaryen (who's heavily associated with the number three) and Sandor Clegane (who shockingly sports three hounds on a black field).

There is more but it’s late here. But I’ll come back together and see if I can find the time to check the entire thread out.

Is this what you're talking about?

The evidence you provide is flimsy at best and you are clearly suffering from the condition I like to call “foreshadowing fever” (seeing symbolism and foreshadowing in absolutely everything even though it isn’t there e.g. the KitN crown/ Whent sigil). It’s something that happens a lot when your involved in such a deep way with such a great story. We are all going a little nuts waiting for tWoW to come out :cheers:

If so, case closed. :rolleyes:

Seriously people, if your only contribution to a thread is to tell the OP that he or she is wrong, with no supporting arguments, just keep it to yourself.

[juanml82]

There is no insult here. It's simply that you are looking too much into things which might very well be unrelated. And you come saying "Hey! I've solved this riddle!". With a series as long as this one, there are bound to be a huge amounts of coincidences, but that doesn't mean the author intended them to be a clue. I've already pointed you to the blunt foreshadowing of Lady's death. But since that's not an outcome you'd like, you disregard it. You can quote a lot of other chunks of text but, at the end of the day, it's just because it doesn't fit the direction you'd like the story to carry. Do you want something else with the number 9? The War of the Nine Penny Kings! And who's in Essos and named her wolf after an Essosian Warrior who invaded Westeros? Arya! So it's foreshadowing of Arya warging one of Danny's dragons to join Aegon Blackfyre! And let the crackpottery go on! The members of House Whent are secret Blackfyres! And Arya will fight for the Blackfyres... because she's a secret Blackfyre as well!

This isn't meant to be condescending. It's to show that almost everything can be connected, but it doesn't mean everything is connected.

And the funny thing is, claiming Sansa is in the line of (legal) succession to Harrenhall doesn't require any of this. It's simple enough to point out. But when you scavenge the text to force it to fill your particular desired outcome, and stick to it as if you were reading GRRM's mind, you have to be ready to read other people say "I'm not buying it"

[Lady Pounce of Whiskerrun]

Actually, Yohn Royce organized the Tourney in which Harry won, and we know of some rumors coming to LF. It seems that all of them are well aware of who is inheriting Eyrie. Comparison with Tully situation is wrong, since Hoster and Minisa were healthy married coupled, while here we have a sick boy, of whose fragility everyone is aware. So, it seems that Vale lords are perfectly aware of entire situation with LF and SR.

With apologies (I've just begun a re-read of AFfC, so it's been awhile since I went through all the relevant chapters), can you expand on the "rumors coming to LF"? Looking just at the tourney, yes, Harry won the melee and was knighted by Yohn Royce, from which we can extrapolate that Lord Royce is impressed with him. But how are we concluding that that means he knows/expects Harry will inherit the Eyrie?

In the Tully example, Hoster and his wife were healthy and of child-bearing age, yes. (And I did acknowledge that it was a stretch as a comparison.) But what evidence do we have that the Vale lords expect Robert Arryn to die without issue? They're definitely not writing him off--if they were, I don't think Yohn Royce would want to foster him and count the experience of his maester (i.e., to get Robert well) as a point in his favor, relative to the other Lords Declarant.

Your logic is also fallible in comparing Alayne's and Harry's status. LF comes from House on lowest place on social ladder. Yes, he is lord of Harrenhal, but Alayne, herself, is nothing but pretty face. And we know all about marriages in Westeros. It is never about pretty face. So, in no way Alayne is in higher social rank than Harry. And pardon me, but you don't realize the gap between bastard and heir of one of 7 Kingdoms?

To be honest, I'm a little distressed that we can't seem to disagree...you think--and tell me if I have this wrong--there is a HUGE gap between Alayne's status and Harry's. I think the gap isn't that big a deal, and I've explained why. (I never said that "Alayne is higher in social rank than Harry.") By BIRTH, Littlefinger is a minor lord, but now he's Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Paramount of the Trident--just like Ramsay (Snow) Bolton is now Lord of the Hornwood. Alayne is his daughter, i.e., Alayne has a father with hugely prestigious titles. That earns her some number of "points." She loses points for being a bastard.

Harry gets points for being Robert Arryn's heir, but not "that many," because Robert can be expected to produce heirs of his own. Robert is frail, but his father was still going strong at age 73.

That's all I'm saying. If you think there is a 10-point gap between Harry and Alayne, I think there's a 5-point gap (or something along those lines).

*Edited to correct for a missing quote mark.

[Lady Pounce of Whiskerrun]

And the funny thing is, claiming Sansa is in the line of (legal) succession to Harrenhall doesn't require any of this. It's simple enough to point out.

Just wanted to say I agree with this. I wish it were clear how Minisa Whent (Sansa's grandmother) was related to Shella Whent, since the ambiguity there means we can't tell if Minisa's heirs (Edmure, Catelyn's children, Robert Arryn) are in line to inherit before Wynafrei Whent (married to a Frey)...but certainly Sansa's a candidate anyway!

[Mladen]

With apologies (I've just begun a re-read of AFfC, so it's been awhile since I went through all the relevant chapters), can you expand on the "rumors coming to LF"? Looking just at the tourney, yes, Harry won the melee and was knighted by Yohn Royce, from which we can extrapolate that Lord Royce is impressed with him. But how are we concluding that that means he knows/expects Harry will inherit the Eyrie?

First, there is this:

“Robert should have an older boy about him too. A promising young squire, say. Someone he could admire and try to emulate.” Petyr turned to Lady Waynwood. “You have such a boy at Ironoaks, my lady. Perhaps you might agree to send me Harrold Hardyng.”

Anya Waynwood seemed amused. “Lord Petyr, you are as bold a thief as I’d ever care to meet.”

“I do not wish to steal the boy,” said Petyr, “but he and Lord Robert should be friends.”

Bronze Yohn Royce leaned forward. “It is meet and proper that Lord Robert should befriend young Harry, and he shall... at Runestone, under my care, as my ward and squire.”

And:

“Our cousin Bronze Yohn had himself a mêlée at Runestone,” Myranda Royce went on, oblivious, “a small one, just for squires. It was meant for Harry the Heir to win the honors, and so he did.”

So, Yohn Royce organized the Tourney for Youg Falcon, as they called Harry. Yohn is perfectly aware of health of SR, so he organized the tourney for Harry to win. Yohn Royce is no fool. SR's health as we said, is publicly known, and everyone expects the boy to die. Otherwise, what's the point of becoming closer to Young Falcon?

In the Tully example, Hoster and his wife were healthy and of child-bearing age, yes. (And I did acknowledge that it was a stretch as a comparison.) But what evidence do we have that the Vale lords expect Robert Arryn to die without issue? They're definitely not writing him off--if they were, I don't think Yohn Royce would want to foster him and count the experience of his maester (i.e., to get Robert well) as a point in his favor, relative to the other Lords Declarant.

They are all well aware of his health, and will be even more since SR is in Gates of the Moon. You forget, Lords Declarant have Harry, but they also needed Robert. They know how fragile SR is, but they also know that he is their lord, and that his guardian has all the power. The conversation doesn't suggest us that they are misinformed about SR's health but that they wanted SR out of LF's hands.

To be honest, I'm a little distressed that we can't seem to disagree...you think--and tell me if I have this wrong--there is a HUGE gap between Alayne's status and Harry's. I think the gap isn't that big a deal, and I've explained why. (I never said that "Alayne is higher in social rank than Harry.") By BIRTH, Littlefinger is a minor lord, but now he's Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Paramount of the Trident--just like Ramsay (Snow) Bolton is now Lord of the Hornwood. Alayne is his daughter, i.e., Alayne has a father with hugely prestigious titles. That earns her some number of "points." She loses points for being a bastard.

The gap is big, because he is one of the most desirable bachelors. And Alayne is bastard. You don't think there is some highborn maiden more proper for him? Alayne has a father with prestigious title, but alas, she has nothing. If LF dies, and she is bastard, she can't inherit. She has no influence. He can and will become Lord of one of the Kingdoms, and she has almost to nothing. Ramsay became lord only after marriage, and later legitimization. All in all, I can't see why would they all watch LF grabbing Vale heir, when he already has Vale lord...

Just wanted to say I agree with this. I wish it were clear how Minisa Whent (Sansa's grandmother) was related to Shella Whent, since the ambiguity there means we can't tell if Minisa's heirs (Edmure, Catelyn's children, Robert Arryn) are in line to inherit before Wynafrei Whent (married to a Frey)...but certainly Sansa's a candidate anyway!

OK, here's deal. Minisa marries to Lord Hoster Tully, Lord of Riverrun and Lord Paramount of Riverlands, and Wynafrei marrys 8th or 9th son of Walder Frey. Tell me, of the two of them, which one do you believe is the closer to the main line? Also, have in mind that Wtnafrei has no progeny...

[juanml82]

OK, here's deal. Minisa marries to Lord Hoster Tully, Lord of Riverrun and Lord Paramount of Riverlands, and Wynafrei marrys 8th or 9th son of Walder Frey. Tell me, of the two of them, which one do you believe is the closer to the main line? Also, have in mind that Wtnafrei has no progeny...

The one who wins the war

[Lady Pounce of Whiskerrun]

They are all well aware of his health, and will be even more since SR is in Gates of the Moon. You forget, Lords Declarant have Harry, but they also needed Robert. They know how fragile SR is, but they also know that he is their lord, and that his guardian has all the power. The conversation doesn't suggest us that they are misinformed about SR's health but that they wanted SR out of LF's hands.

The Lords Delcarant know that Robert has "frailties" (Lady Waynwood's term), but to say what specifics they know (the nature and magnitude of his illness, his prognosis) is conjecture. You provide a reason for why the Lords Declarant want Robert in their custody, which is understandable. But that doesn't indicate that they expect him not to live long enough to marry and have a child.

The gap is big, because he is one of the most desirable bachelors. And Alayne is bastard. You don't think there is some highborn maiden more proper for him? Alayne has a father with prestigious title, but alas, she has nothing. If LF dies, and she is bastard, she can't inherit. She has no influence. He can and will become Lord of one of the Kingdoms, and she has almost to nothing. Ramsay became lord only after marriage, and later legitimization. All in all, I can't see why would they all watch LF grabbing Vale heir, when he already has Vale lord...

I did not say that there isn't a gap, or that the gap is small, or that Alayne is the "best" that Harry could do. I have explained what I believe are mitigating factors for Alayne's bastardy: being a lord's bastard is better than being a peasant's bastard, for example. All I'm hoping we can agree on is that you think the gap is bigger than I think it is.

And the Ramsay example I gave was just meant to illustrate that he's in a situation where the circumstances of his birth don't matter any more--he was born a Snow, heir to nothing, and now he's Lord of the Hornwood. Similarly, while Lord Baelish was born the heir to minor holdings on the Fingers, that's irrelevant now that he's Lord Paramount of the Trident and Lord Protector of the Vale.

OK, here's deal. Minisa marries to Lord Hoster Tully, Lord of Riverrun and Lord Paramount of Riverlands, and Wynafrei marrys 8th or 9th son of Walder Frey. Tell me, of the two of them, which one do you believe is the closer to the main line? Also, have in mind that Wtnafrei has no progeny...

Ouch. I don't feel great about the tone being used here.

Wynafrei was born a Whent. Sansa was born a Stark; her mother was born a Tully; it's not till you get to Sansa's grandmother that you have someone with the Whent name. Is Winterfell more likely to go to Arya, the last in line of Eddard Stark's remaining children, or to the descendant of the Vale lord that Ned's aunt married (I forget the exact relationship)?

Wynafrei's lack of children would not affect her rights to inherit, although (and perhaps this was your point) it could mean that if she died childless, Harrenhal could pass to one of Catelyn's children afterwards (assuming Wynafrei wound up with it first).

*Edited to fix capitalization error

[Mladen]

Ouch. I don't feel great about the tone being used here.

Wynafrei was born a Whent. Sansa was born a Stark; her mother was born a Tully; it's not till you get to Sansa's grandmother that you have someone with the Whent name. Is Winterfell more likely to go to Arya, the last in line of Eddard Stark's remaining children, or to the descendant of the Vale lord that Ned's aunt married (I forget the exact relationship)?

Wynafrei's lack of children would not affect her rights to inherit, although (and perhaps this was your point) it could mean that if she died childless, Harrenhal could pass to one of Catelyn's children afterwards (assuming Wynafrei wound up with it first).

*Edited to fix capitalization error

Tone? I am a bit confused. It's a simple thing. Between Minisa and Wynafrei, what we know of both of them, suggest us that Minisa was much closer to main line. Yes, only Sansas grandmother is Whent, but so what? Robert claimed Iron Throne based on his Targaryen grandmother (remember that Renly's line isn't that correct as he thinks). All of Minisa's descendants have claim on Harrenhal, and IMO, of all of them, Sansa is the closest getting it.

[Lady Pounce of Whiskerrun]

Tone? I am a bit confused. It's a simple thing. Between Minisa and Wynafrei, what we know of both of them, suggest us that Minisa was much closer to main line. Yes, only Sansas grandmother is Whent, but so what? Robert claimed Iron Throne based on his Targaryen grandmother (remember that Renly's line isn't that correct as he thinks). All of Minisa's descendants have claim on Harrenhal, and IMO, of all of them, Sansa is the closest getting it.

It read as condescending and exasperated to me. "OK, here's the deal"--as in "let me explain what I think is very obvious, but you don't understand."

Shella Whent is/was the last "main line" Whent. Her father, Lord Whent, had three brothers and a sister. What if Wynafrei is the only surviving child of one of those brothers (lady Whent's cousin)? Wouldn't a cousin inherit before the grandaughter of a cousin (assuming that's what Minisa was to Shella)?

I know these relationships are made up and so could be completely wrong. I'm just trying to illustrate why I think there's ambiguity around whether Harrenhal--if it goes to someone from House Whent--would go to Wynafrei versus one of Minisa's descendants.

[Mladen]

It read as condescending and exasperated to me. "OK, here's the deal"--as in "let me explain what I think is very obvious, but you don't understand."

First, I didn't mean that way and I am sorry if I have accidentally offended you. It was not my intention. Second, I enjoy this discussion, for unlike some I have on this thread, it is productive... You rarely meet someone who will politely attack your arguments, and not call you bias, or sick from "foreshadowing fever" without even trying to debate about some proofs presented. Some should learn from you...

Shella Whent is/was the last "main line" Whent. Her father, Lord Whent, had three brothers and a sister. What if Wynafrei is the only surviving child of one of those brothers (lady Whent's cousin)? Wouldn't a cousin inherit before the grandaughter of a cousin (assuming that's what Minisa was to Shella)?

I know these relationships are made up and so could be completely wrong. I'm just trying to illustrate why I think there's ambiguity around whether Harrenhal--if it goes to someone from House Whent--would go to Wynafrei versus one of Minisa's descendants.

We are not certain whether Minisa could have been Shella's aunt or whether Wynafrei is Sheila's cousin. But, all come down to this. According to what we know from both of them, it seems that Minisa was much closer to main line than Wynafrei. Wynafrei was married to 8th son of Walder Frey. That is relatively low in social status. Also, there is the fact Wynafrei is childless, while Minisa has plenty of descendants. Simply, between Wynafrei and Tully/Arryn/Stark, I choose those that have bigger chance of getting it and keeping it.