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House Stark of Harrenhal (long, but with TLDR summary)


Mladen

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Since I believe that Sansa's identity is already known at least to Yohn Royce, given that he has been entire AGoT in KL. Plus there is that cryptic line of Anya Waynwood (“The girl is young and gently bred, and has suffered enough horrors. Mind your tongue, ser.”) and the Yohn's line at the end of the LF's meeting with Lord declarants (Not all of us are fooled.). Who knows what might be going on with Vale lords? Thing is I don't believe that Sansa will marry either Harry or Littlefinger, but I do believe we'll see her out of her marriage with Tyrion. And the moment Cersei is deposed, Sansa is safe to reveal her identity.

I think it's not that cryptic a line if the context is looked at - Lady Waynwood is referring to Alayne having seen Marillion murder lady Lysa. (Or so she thinks.)

Yohn Royce is the most suspicious of her, having met Sansa. He may know more than he lets on.

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Well, one thing is certain. Littlefinger has acquired progeny, in form of his adoptive son Robert Arryn and his bastard daughter Alayne and more disturbingly is what he plans next. The revelation of his future plans with his “daughter” we can find in the past, in the story about Bael the Bard and Stark maiden daughter Ygritte told Jon. Bael was the King beyond the Wall, who was offended when Lord Brandon Stark named him a craven. He then climbed the Wall and headed towards Winterfell, under the alias Sygerrik of Skagos. Since the singers were highly valued, Lord Stark asked what reward he should give to him. Bael asked for the most beautiful flower in Winterfell, and Stark ordered one blue winter rose to be plunked from the gardens. Following morning, Bael and Stark maiden daughter was gone, and on her bed they found blue winter rose. Since she was the only child of Lord Stark, Stark line was near extinction when one day she was found with the infant in her own room. According to the legend, she never left Winterfell and stayed in the crypts. Her son became the Lord of Winterfell and later killed his own father. After receiving the news, his mother killed herself jumping off the tower.

The parallels between Baelish and Bael the bard surpass the name. After being offended by Brandon Stark in the duel for Catelyn’s hand, LF avenged his pride by winning his brother Ned in the Game, and causing War of 5 Kings that ended with the ruin of House Stark. Sansa, maiden daughter of Ned Stark, was taken from King’s landing by Littlefinger. Especially disturbing are Baelish’ hidden agendas and sexual connotation of his father/daughter relationship with Sansa. But, that is where parallels with Bael end. Sansa in no way is in love with Baelish, and the idea of her committing suicide over her love for Baelish is, in my opinion, ridiculous.

You forgot another parallel, Bael is killed by his natural son. This hints at Baelish being killed by his "natural" daughter, Alayne.

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I enjoy this discussion, for unlike some I have on this thread, it is productive...

Great! I'm glad to hear it.

We are not certain whether Minisa could have been Shella's aunt or whether Wynafrei is Sheila's cousin. But, all come down to this. According to what we know from both of them, it seems that Minisa was much closer to main line than Wynafrei. Wynafrei was married to 8th son of Walder Frey. That is relatively low in social status. Also, there is the fact Wynafrei is childless, while Minisa has plenty of descendants. Simply, between Wynafrei and Tully/Arryn/Stark, I choose those that have bigger chance of getting it and keeping it.

I understand where you're coming from, but I think you can argue that there are other examples of the participants in a marriage having mismatched statuses (for lack of a better term). Genna Lannister is the daughter of the wealthiest lord in Westeros, but she married the second son of Walder Frey--the scion of a poorly regarded house who had a very low likelihood of inheriting. Doran Martell, the Prince of Dorne, married a Norvoshi woman who might have had a high status in her city but didn't gain her husband anything in terms of prestige or alliances. So maybe Wynafrei was "higher status" than seems apparent from her marriage to Danwell Frey.

Alternatively, Lady Shella Whent was apparently the only child of her father, Lord Whent. If Wynafrei was (and again, I acknowledge I'm just making this up for the sake of discussion) the "nth" daughter of that Lord Whent's youngest brother, then yes, she wouldn't seem to be very "high status"...but if she's now the only one left from that generation (due to plague, the Rebellion, etc.), then she becomes Lady Whent's heir.

If we imagine a scenario (and this depends on a lot of if's coming to pass) where the war is done, and Harrenhal is given back to House Whent, and it winds up with Wynafrei...what happens if she dies childless, as seems likely? Well, who would be Wynafrei's heir? Her father was a Whent, but what was her mother's house? Would it go to some maternal relative of Wynafrei's (sort of similar to the situation with Darry), or would whoever's in charge of such decisions (Iron Throne? Lord Paramount of the Trident/Riverrun?) essentially go back to the drawing board to find another living direct descendant of a Whent?

I don't know the answer, but fundamentally, my thoughts on the disposition of Harrenhal are:

1. If it reverts back to House Whent, it could go to Wynafrei.

2. If it reverts back to House Whent, it could alternatively go to Minisa's heirs; I would expect Edmure, Edmure's child, Bran Stark, Rickon Stark, Sansa Stark, Arya Stark, then Robert Arryn to be the "official" order in which her heirs were considered (but I could be mistaken).

3. I believe it's possible that Sansa Stark would end up in possession of Harrenhal.

*Edited for clarity.

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I think it's not that cryptic a line if the context is looked at - Lady Waynwood is referring to Alayne having seen Marillion murder lady Lysa. (Or so she thinks.)

Yohn Royce is the most suspicious of her, having met Sansa. He may know more than he lets on.

Royce is my first guest, and I admit this Waynwood's line is most likely nothing special, but on my reread, I have thought of an idea that Waynwood and Royce are playing LF. Royce finds out who is Alayne, and when LF offers Alayne for Harry, she and Royce secretly starts plotting against Baelish by accepting the proposal... I wouldn't dismiss any of Lords Declarants so easily...

You forgot another parallel, Bael is killed by his natural son. This hints at Baelish being killed by his "natural" daughter, Alayne.

I thought of that, but I intentionally left it out due to clarity. I have compared Sansa with Stark maiden daughter, which de facto she is and Baelish with Bael. Comparing her with their son might have been confusing in one post... So I was waiting someone to bring that up. Thanks for that. Well, assuming that snow castle scene was foreshadowing for Sansa killing Baelish, I can see the clear parallel...

If we imagine a scenario (and this depends on a lot of if's coming to pass) where the war is done, and Harrenhal is given back to House Whent, and it winds up with Wynafrei...what happens if she dies childless, as seems likely? Well, who would be Wynafrei's heir? Her father was a Whent, but what was her mother's house? Would it go to some maternal relative of Wynafrei's (sort of similar to the situation with Darry), or would whoever's in charge of such decisions (Iron Throne? Lord Paramount of the Trident/Riverrun?) essentially go back to the drawing board to find another living direct descendant of a Whent?

If Wynafrei dies, it goes back to Minisa. Maternal line of Wynafrei wouldn't have any claim here, just as Tyrion without Sansa can't claim Winterfell. Also, there is the fact that Harrenhal will be won by someone and not inherited. That is why Sansa is so perfect candidate for it. She has the current claim, if legitimized, as Alayne. Once LF is done, and Aegon goes against Lannisters, Sansa is free to reveal her identity, and exercise her claim on Harrenhall as Sansa Stark, granddaughter of Minisa Whent. Who would stop her? Riverlords would be happier with Stark in Harrenhal, Freys will have enough troubles as it is with Lady Stoneheart, while Sansa's brothers will be involved in Winterfell. I assume Bran is not coming back, and that Rickon will, at the end, have Winterfell. Edmure is most likely to die, and if he, by some miracle, survives, he has Riverrun. From whatever side you look at it, Sansa is the perfect choice for destroyed castle in need of repair. After all, snow castle scene was rebuilding Winerfell...

I don't know the answer, but fundamentally, my thoughts on the disposition of Harrenhal are:

1. If it reverts back to House Whent, it could go to Wynafrei.

2. If it reverts back to House Whent, it could alternatively go to Minisa's heirs; I would expect Edmure, Edmure's child, Bran Stark, Rickon Stark, Sansa Stark, Arya Stark, then Robert Arryn to be the "official" order in which her heirs were considered (but I could be mistaken).

3. I believe it's possible that Sansa Stark would end up in possession of Harrenhal.

There is one small fallacy in your thinking. If it reverts to Whents, it goes straight to Minisa's descendants, because that would mean that LF is deposed and Lannisters are no longer controlling Harrenhal, thus Freys are no longer in anyone's mercy.

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I think we're blurring the lead here. Whether or not Sansa inherets anything she is the most important person (in Post war westeros.)

Once the dust settles after the new war for dawn there's still going to be a fractured and angry 7Ks. They'll need someone who can bring them all to the table.

Sansa can do that.

At this point She can bring the north, the vale, and the Riverlands to the table. Even if she's not directly Lady of any of them. Family is family. And if sweet robin lives she'll run the vale either way.

It's not unlikely she'll have some connection to the rock (she might even be Lady of the rock).

Margary Tyrell knows her well enough that a line of communication could be opened to Highgarden. Heck she almost married into that family too.

She can bring those five to the table to talk and try to hammer out a lasting peace.

Also her brother is the last green seer so she's also making peace with the cotf.

Sansa's misadventures have set her up to be westeros' last best hope for peace. It's the grrm twisted fate for Sansa. She won't be a lady of a great castle where singers sing and knights fight for her. She be just Sansa. But they'll sing songs about how knights stopped fighting for her.

Eta grammar, phrasing, etc

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<snip>

Thank you very much for this. I appreciate it...

<snip>

You're welcome. I missed this until just now, btw.

It bugs me when someone comes into a thread and just knows that the OP is wrong. It's not enough to say "you're over thinking it." How do you know? Maybe you're under thinking it. Explain yourself. State your case.

There is lots of symbolism in the series. Don't just assume that someone else has mistakenly applied some of it to their idea just because you hadn't thought of it first. If there is such an obvious flaw in their presentation, you should have little difficulty in communicating it to the rest of us.

Blah. Sorry about the mini-rant.

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I feel this could work if everything in your theory comes through. I like the point brought out about wow LF will have Sansa legitimized before hand and then have her marry Harry. Also if she does this and comes out as a Stark this will give LF some room with the Lords of the Vale and the Riverlands.

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If Wynafrei dies, it goes back to Minisa. Maternal line of Wynafrei wouldn't have any claim here, just as Tyrion without Sansa can't claim Winterfell. Also, there is the fact that Harrenhal will be won by someone and not inherited. That is why Sansa is so perfect candidate for it. She has the current claim, if legitimized, as Alayne. Once LF is done, and Aegon goes against Lannisters, Sansa is free to reveal her identity, and exercise her claim on Harrenhall as Sansa Stark, granddaughter of Minisa Whent. Who would stop her? Riverlords would be happier with Stark in Harrenhal, Freys will have enough troubles as it is with Lady Stoneheart, while Sansa's brothers will be involved in Winterfell. I assume Bran is not coming back, and that Rickon will, at the end, have Winterfell. Edmure is most likely to die, and if he, by some miracle, survives, he has Riverrun. From whatever side you look at it, Sansa is the perfect choice for destroyed castle in need of repair. After all, snow castle scene was rebuilding Winerfell...

so Sansa could claim Riverrun & the Riverlands but would choose the cursed, impossible to maintain, ruined halls of Harrenhall.

And that disregarding the fact that her only wish in AFFC is to go back to Winterfell.

Oh, and btw, you do realize the thread's title is misleading because it won't be House Stark of Harrenhall, but whichever House Sansa's husband belongs to, right?

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so Sansa could claim Riverrun & the Riverlands but would choose the cursed, impossible to maintain, ruined halls of Harrenhall.

And that disregarding the fact that her only wish in AFFC is to go back to Winterfell.

Oh, and btw, you do realize the thread's title is misleading because it won't be House Stark of Harrenhall, but whichever House Sansa's husband belongs to, right?

Sansa wouldn't be claiming Riverrun, because most likely Riverrun would be of Edmure's child. As for Harrenhal, it's no one's. Also, there is that possibility that she might get LF's significant fortune...

I don't disregard her wishes of returning home, and I see her in Winterfell at some point, but that doesn't mean she will stay there for good.

The title isn't misleading since, and there is wonderful case with Mormont women, if Sansa, by any chance marries a husband below her, she could keep her surname.

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Sansa wouldn't be claiming Riverrun, because most likely Riverrun would be of Edmure's child. As for Harrenhal, it's no one's. Also, there is that possibility that she might get LF's significant fortune...

I don't disregard her wishes if returning home, and I see her in Winterfell at some point, but that doesn't mean she will stay there for goods.

The title isn't misleading since, and there is wonderful case with Mormont women, if Sansa, by any chance marries a husband below her, she could keep her surname.

You've called Edmure's son "Frey spawn (the River Lords wouldn't want)" a few pages back.

Maege Mormont husband isn't known. I don't even recall if she's known to be married at all (for all we know, the tale of her daughters being born of a bear might be because they are legitimized bastards and the tale keeps people from asking too much). And while Sansa would keep her surname if she were to inherit her home turf (or may not, as in Alys Karstark case. Her brother's death would institute House Then of the Karhold), but if she's getting a different keep, she might not. Even more, her taking up her husband's name might prevent others to think the Starks are getting too much power/lands/etc.

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You've called Edmure's son "Frey spawn (the River Lords wouldn't want)" a few pages back.

Maege Mormont husband isn't known. I don't even recall if she's known to be married at all (for all we know, the tale of her daughters being born of a bear might be because they are legitimized bastards and the tale keeps people from asking too much). And while Sansa would keep her surname if she were to inherit her home turf (or may not, as in Alys Karstark case. Her brother's death would institute House Then of the Karhold), but if she's getting a different keep, she might not. Even more, her taking up her husband's name might prevent others to think the Starks are getting too much power/lands/etc.

Frey spawn, like it or not, is the heir of Riverrun. That might bring him/her Riverrun, but never the allegiance of Riverlords. That's why most likely House that rule Harrenhal will be Paramount of Riverlands. As for Maege Mormont, she provides us wonderful example that women can hold their surname. We know that Alysanne's children are born out of wedlock, but it would be wrong to assume the same for Maege. Also, it is not unheard of that husband takes his wife's last name if he is beneath her. Your entire case is based on possibility. If Sansa gets the castle before the wedding, she would be creating House Stark of Harrenhal. In that case, the name will stick even after her wedding. As for others, I believe that in the end, we'll see North, Riverlands and Vale united in one Kingdom - with Stark king reigning from Winterfell.

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The obvious problem with all this is Rickon/Bran

Sansa is heir to Winterfell, and (after Edmure) Riverrun and probably Harrenhall. But ONLY if Rickon is declared DEAD.

There is a Stark on Stark war brewing and it ain't gunna be pretty.

How? Even with Rickon alive, Harrenhal needs someone to govern it. Sansa taking it would be the best for Starks. As for Star on Stark, it is never going to happen... Simply, everything Martin wrote regarding each of Stark children strongly suggest that they would never go against each other.

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The obvious problem with all this is Rickon/Bran

Sansa is heir to Winterfell, and (after Edmure) Riverrun and probably Harrenhall. But ONLY if Rickon is declared DEAD.

There is a Stark on Stark war brewing and it ain't gunna be pretty.

Well, if Rickon is alive, Westerosi customs indicate he can't claim Winterfell+Riverrun+Harrenhall. So he gets the best one (Winterfell) and everything else trickles down the succession line.

As for a war between wolves... it might happen. I don't see Littlefinger hearing Rickon is alive, shrugging off and saying "Well, I've never wanted to influence the North anyway". Getting (un)Jon involved might be tricky, but it's doable. I think the issue is resolution: there are two books remaining and the White Walkers ought to be attacking the Wall soon, so it doesn't seem it can last long.

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Unlike yours :rolleyes:

Yes, unlike mine, for I follow textual evidence, pieces of foreshadowing. I have analyzed the situation and came with a theory. Is it going to 100% certainly happen? Possibly not. But, unlike in your arguments, people can see the logic behind my thinking. My opinion, unlike yours is not based on the other people being bias. Since you haven't been able to write a decent argument that would go against this theory, you attacked me. You personalized this debate for some pathetic problem you have with me. I am sorry, I wish I could help you, but I won't turn this thread in what your trollish goal is. I would sincerely appreciate if you, unless having something smart to say, and contribute this thread with arguments and counter-arguments for the theory, to leave it and find another thread that will tolerate your trollish behavior. So, unless you have something smart to say, and we have seen you haven't, goodbye.

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Yes, unlike mine, for I follow textual evidence, pieces of foreshadowing. I have analyzed the situation and came with a theory. Is it going to 100% certainly happen? Possibly not. But, unlike in your arguments, people can see the logic behind my thinking. My opinion, unlike yours is not based on the other people being bias. Since you haven't been able to write a decent argument that would go against this theory, you attacked me. You personalized this debate for some pathetic problem you have with me. I am sorry, I wish I could help you, but I won't turn this thread in what your trollish goal is. I would sincerely appreciate if you, unless having something smart to say, and contribute this thread with arguments and counter-arguments for the theory, to leave it and find another thread that will tolerate your trollish behavior. So, unless you have something smart to say, and we have seen you haven't, goodbye.

Well, the argument is that your "pieces of foreshadowing" mean nothing at all
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Yes, unlike mine, for I follow textual evidence, pieces of foreshadowing. I have analyzed the situation and came with a theory. Is it going to 100% certainly happen? Possibly not. But, unlike in your arguments, people can see the logic behind my thinking.

To be fair here - your theory is highly speculative. It hinges on a bat metaphor that is mentioned once. It hinges on thinking we know LF's plans. It hinges on speculation that Rickon will matter. It hinges on speculation that Jon's final fate will be a boring anti-climax. It hinges on speculation that Harrenhal will be a prize worth having and that Sansa can break its curse and will want it even more than being "home" with her leftover family. It hinges on speculation that post-War Westeros will make Harrenhal a power base rather than the sort of albatross that you hand over to people like Janos Slynt.

It hinges on speculation upon speculation. Its flimsy bat symbolism is the least of its problems. To be honest with you, it's too much speculation to be taken without a pound of salt. There are plenty of possible fates for Sansa that have better symbolism, more foreshadowing, better set-ups and more narrative impact. Maiden Lady of Harrenhal is super-duper static. It requires little of Sansa. She just has to stay put, get Harrenhal from LF, stay a maiden, stay alive, watch LF self-implode... Profit. No character growth required.

Sansa dying has better foreshadowing and potential character growth. Her getting married and getting her barge, puppies and replacement siblings has better foreshadowing and narrative potential. Her becoming a terrible person has better narrative potential and character growth.

Your theory is nice and not unlikely but I don't think it's an interesting end game for any POV character. A step to some other end game? Sure. But being the actual end game? It just doesn't have enough proof for something that is just a tad too boring.

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Frey spawn, like it or not, is the heir of Riverrun. That might bring him/her Riverrun, but never the allegiance of Riverlords. That's why most likely House that rule Harrenhal will be Paramount of Riverlands.

A couple thoughts on this: First, Edmure's child is just as much "Tully spawn" as "Frey spawn." Second, Edmure's wife (the child's mother) is a daughter of Walder Frey and his Rosby wife. She and her siblings have been demonstrably pro-Tully/Stark:

1) Roslin prays her child will be a girl, because she knows that a boy will put Edmure's life in danger; she wants Edmure to live.

2) Olyvar was Robb Stark's squire and wanted to remain with him even after Robb married Jeyne Westerling.

3) Perwyn was one of Robb's protectors during the battles near Riverrun and escorted Catelyn to meet with Lord Renly. Both he and Olyvar are NOT at the Red Wedding.

I believe the River Lords will want Edmure Tully's child--Lord Hoster's grandchild--to have Riverrun, and I also believe that they will want Riverrun to be restored to its historical position as the seat of the Lord Paramount of the Trident. To be clear, these are just my beliefs, based on what we've seen of the River Lords' devotion to House Tully throughout the series. So while I could be wrong, I think this scenario is a plausible one (i.e., Edmure's child will inherit Riverrun, and the River Lords will approve).

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If Wynafrei dies, it goes back to Minisa. Maternal line of Wynafrei wouldn't have any claim here, just as Tyrion without Sansa can't claim Winterfell. Also, there is the fact that Harrenhal will be won by someone and not inherited. That is why Sansa is so perfect candidate for it. She has the current claim, if legitimized, as Alayne. Once LF is done, and Aegon goes against Lannisters, Sansa is free to reveal her identity, and exercise her claim on Harrenhall as Sansa Stark, granddaughter of Minisa Whent. Who would stop her? Riverlords would be happier with Stark in Harrenhal, Freys will have enough troubles as it is with Lady Stoneheart, while Sansa's brothers will be involved in Winterfell. I assume Bran is not coming back, and that Rickon will, at the end, have Winterfell. Edmure is most likely to die, and if he, by some miracle, survives, he has Riverrun. From whatever side you look at it, Sansa is the perfect choice for destroyed castle in need of repair. After all, snow castle scene was rebuilding Winerfell...

I'm confused here. I don't know that there are any "facts" about what will happen to Harrenhal (see above: "the fact that Harrenhal will be won...not inherited"). Maybe this is just a semantics/word choice issue, but if it's a case of "to the victor goes the spoils," and Aegon prevails (as you seem to suggest; if it looks like the Lannisters will beat him, I doubt Sansa would reveal her identity), couldn't Aegon just as easily grant Harrenhal to Duck or to a member of the Golden Company or to a minor Westerosi lord that joined his cause early?

Also (and this is another thing that has me confused, in light of the above), if Harrenhal is going to be "won," then why does Sansa's Whent heritage even matter? Couldn't she just say, in effect, "I'm not even first in line among Minisa Whent's descendants, but I'm taking Harrenhal anyway because [fill in the blank; because she has Vale support, because she has Littlefinger's gold, or because of whatever else]."

You also talk about Sansa exercising "her claim on [sic] Harrenhall"...if she has a claim, then she doesn't need to "win" it, it seems to me; she just gets it, because that's what the law says.

There is one small fallacy in your thinking. If it reverts to Whents, it goes straight to Minisa's descendants, because that would mean that LF is deposed and Lannisters are no longer controlling Harrenhal, thus Freys are no longer in anyone's mercy.

I don't understand this. The war's over, and Harrenhal (for whatever reason, based on whomever's decree) is going to go back to House Whent (in the scenario we're discussing). Why does it go "straight to Minisa's descendants"? Because Wynafrei is married to a Frey, and no one likes House Frey? Just let me know if I've misconstrued your point.

Here are my thoughts: Lady Shella Whent, the last main line descendant of House Whent was of an age with Hoster Tully (give or take). This suggests that Minisa Whent, who married Hoster Tully, could be from the same generation as Shella. If this is the case, Minisa could be Shella's sister (although the wiki, for whatever it's worth, shows Shella as an only child), or she could be a cousin. Wynafrei Whent could also be Shella's [probably much younger] sister, or a cousin.

If Wynafrei's a sister, and Minisa's a cousin, Wynafrei is Shella's heir. If Wynafrei and Minisa are both cousins, depending on which of Shella's uncles fathered them, it could go to either one. All I'm trying to illustrate is that, based solely on what we've been shown of Westerosi laws of inheritance (i.e., and not on whether River Lords dislike Freys or like Starks), it is possible that Wynafrei could be Shella Whent's heir.

*Edited for typo

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