Why Did House Tully Join Rebellion, Really ?

[Willard/Mitt Lannister]

It was a smart strategic decision, because the Targs were in serious trouble. When Tywin Lannister didn't immediately declare for Aerys, that was taken as a sign that the tide--in the North at least--was turned against the Targaryens in that half of Westeros. Only the Houses around the Bay of Claws supported the Targaryens and they were of not threat to the Tullys.

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

Now I imagine Hoster Tully saying that line ("It's time to take out the trash") as he dons sunglasses while overlooking the Red Fork. Cue the minstrels.

Are minstrels able to nail that classic song of heroism and justice, The Ballad of CSI:Miami? Perhaps a high lute chord of YEEEEAAAAAAAAHH?

I mean...I think they pull it off. Maybe the Blue Bard can dub in some SFX there.

[The-Paul-Arron00]

I wish we actually new more of hoster. I wonder how different the war would've been if he wasn't dying.

[Frey Pie]

As everyone else said already and self preservation. Mallister is one of the most powerful secondary lords in Westeros aswel so I'm thinking he was pushing hard for justice

[JungWheats]

I'm of the opinion that the tourney at Harrenhall was meant for Rhaegar to get all the lords together and see who would support his removal of Aerys. Its been suggested that Varys' warnings to Aerys were legit: Rhaegar was plotting to remove him from power do to deepening madness. Word of his madness had to have been spreading throughout the land. It would seem that Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully, and Jon Arryn were all colluding with one another, in preparation for this moment. They all intermarry and trade wards, cementing the alliance before any battles are fought. There were probably 2 conspiracies against Aerys, at least one of them headed up by Rhaegar. The tourney at Harrenhall was probably Rhaegar's chance to meet with these other Lords and turn them from open rebellion to just a peaceful bloodless coup.

"Heads up, boys, I'm about to be king."

Rhaegar was well-liked, he probably had high hopes. Then things popped off differently than he had planned. I think the Huis Clos and various other posts lay out the theory in more detail. I'll try and find a link.

[Fat Mac]

Hoster seemed to want friends in high places. He could get higher in a new regime then he would under Aerys.

In addition, as others have mentioned, I'm assuming the Lord Mallister (maybe Jason) wanted vengeance for the murder of Jeffrey Mallister. Given the Mallister's strength I'm assuming they always have the ear of the Tullys.

It also keeps the Riverlands from being flanked by the North and the Vale if it had to come to it. In the end Hoster was smarter to ally with the rebels than with the crown.

[Djinn]

Hoster was the Horatio Caine of Westeros. It is know.

[JungWheats]

I did a search for the old Southron Ambitions thread, but I can't find it anywhere.

Edit, nope, I'm wrong:

[AvengerofWinterfell]

I wish we actually new more of hoster. I wonder how different the war would've been if he wasn't dying.

Alot...the most noticeable difference I can think of is that a seasoned soldier and commander like Hoster wouldnt fall the Tywin's trap by as Ned put it "defending every inch of his land" the way Edmure did. Hoster would've likely consolidated his forces and either attacked Lannister positions, or simply waited for Tywins main force to be brought to bear. In either case, the young Knights of the Riverlands likely arent allowed to go to Kings Landing, thereby removing Neds decision to send a patrol after the Mountain, and keeping Neds troops in Kings Landing (making the Purge of his house much more difficult.)

[Grip]

I think it was a mixture of connections and optimism, here was a perfect chance to strengthen your own position if successful. I mean out of the Great Houses Tully to me appear as the weakest, with their lands lacking natural defences such the Arryns nor do they have the gold of the Lannisters etc. Hoster might have thought that joining the Rebellion would help strengthen his own House in the long run.

[Petyr Patter]

Family, Duty, Honor.

In this case, family and honor won out. Hoster's family was in danger. When Aerys called for Robert's head, he did so because he was bethrothed to Lyanna and might object to abduction. Would Aerys start demanding Tully heads because Catelyn was bethrothed to Brandon? He definitely could have followed Tywin and Walder Frey's example of calling his men, walling up in Riverrun, and waiting to see which side won before negotiating a peace. Actually, that strikes as exactly what he did to start the Rebellion.

Then Robert "Drop the Hammer" Baratheon happened. Go read the wiki on Robert's Rebellion and some of the battles, it's great stuff. The war began with Gulltown under Marq Grafton siding with Aerys. Robert needed the port to leave and gather the Stormlands behind him. Robert stormed the walls and killed Grafton himself, uniting the Vale behind the rebels. Royalists houses also tried to unite against the rebellion in the Stormlands. Robert won three battles in one day to prevent the three hosts from joining up and outnumbering his own nascent host. Not only did he win all three battles, but the Houses he fought ended up liking Robert so much they joined his cause. Eddard Starks summons the Northern houses without incidence.

If you are Hoster Tully... the rebels are looking pretty good right now. Aerys had clearly committed atrocities and the rebels cause was honorable. Yet, he would be putting his family at risk and forsaking his duty to his king. In order justify that, the rebellion needs to benefit FAMILY. So, he insisted Eddard marry Catelyn, making him "family," and secured a "very good" marriage for his "spoiled" younger daughter making Jon Arryn family. The fact that marriage failed probably had more to do with Lysa Arryn then Jon Arryn, but that is another issue.

[redtree]

Good political move, yes. But still, it looks like preemptive moves to me since Aerys hadn't touch them. Targaryen LIFTED their status well above their standing yet rebellion was how they repaid them,Tullys wouldn't even give benefit of the doubt. Hoster strikes me as an opportunist. Family and Duty? sure. Honor? questionable

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Good political move, yes. But still, it looks like preemptive moves to me since Aerys hadn't touch them. Targaryen LIFTED their status well above their standing yet rebellion was how they repaid them,not even benefit of the doubt. Hoster strikes me as an opportunist. Family and Duty? sure. Honor? questionable

I've always thought so. Had Tywin still been Hand I'm pretty sure he would of stayed neutral or tried to pitch his offspring to some of the powerful Royalist families.

An interesting hypothetical is half way through Roberts Rebellion after he had burnt his bridges with the Targs and made enemies with some of the RiverLords had both Ned and Jon Arryn said to him 'sorry we've decided that we are not going to marry your daughters' what his reaction would of been?

[Fish Swim]

Good political move, yes. But still, it looks like preemptive moves to me since Aerys hadn't touch them. Targaryen LIFTED their status well above their standing yet rebellion was how they repaid them,Tullys wouldn't even give benefit of the doubt. Hoster strikes me as an opportunist. Family and Duty? sure. Honor? questionable

But he had: he had killed the man who was betrothed to Lord Hoster's oldest daughter. Like someone noted upthread, Aerys had also demanded Ned's head for no other reason than because he was Brandon's brother; what was to say he wouldn't go after Brandon's betrothed next? IMO Lord Hoster's joining the rebellion wasn't so much opportunistic as it was trying to avoid being the next Lord Paramount Aerys decided to cook.

An interesting hypothetical is half way through Roberts Rebellion after he had burnt his bridges with the Targs and made enemies with some of the RiverLords had both Ned and Jon Arryn said to him 'sorry we've decided that we are not going to marry your daughters' what his reaction would of been?

Only Lord Hoster didn't join the rebellion until both his daughters were safely wedded, so there was no chance of that. I imagine that he wanted to make sure that Jon Arryn in particular kept his part of the bargain first (not because Lord Jon wasn't trustworthy, but because it would have been much more difficult to find a new match for Lysa than for Cat). But it is an interesting hypothetical. I don't think Lord Hoster would or even could have taken his ball swords and gone home, though; he would have been committed at that point.

As someone else said upthread, I wish we could have known more about Hoster. Now, we only see him as a dying and in the end delirious old man, and the only POV we have on him is Cat's memories. Even though it's obvious he was a good father to her, that doesn't say much about him as a lord and commander.

[redtree]

But he had: he had killed the man who was betrothed to Lord Hoster's oldest daughter. Like someone noted upthread, Aerys had also demanded Ned's head for no other reason than because he was Brandon's brother; what was to say he wouldn't go after Brandon's betrothed next? IMO Lord Hoster's joining the rebellion wasn't so much opportunistic as it was trying to avoid being the next Lord Paramount Aerys decided to cook.

Brandon hasn't wed Cat yet so they weren't officially family so Aerys hadn't really touch the Tullys at that point. If Hoster were a honorable loyal man who remember that the Tully has a liege status only because Targs raised them, he wouldn't rebel. BUT he did because he wanted his daughters to be wed to 2 lord Paramount, East=Arryn and North=Stark. That's why he insist for Cat and Lysa to be wedded first. If Jon Arryn refuse Lysa,would he rebel? Nope. His motive is pure opportunist

[Petyr Patter]

Good political move, yes. But still, it looks like preemptive moves to me since Aerys hadn't touch them. Targaryen LIFTED their status well above their standing yet rebellion was how they repaid them,Tullys wouldn't even give benefit of the doubt. Hoster strikes me as an opportunist. Family and Duty? sure. Honor? questionable

Honor is a very broad concept. It means not only respecting ancient alliances and agreements, but also thinks like telling the truth and protecting the innocent. Were Ned and Robert innocent? Yes. Heck, Brandon and RIckard were innocent as well. An honorable man does not sit by and let the innocents suffer. That is mostly what I meant by honor.

Now, their DUTY was clearly to House Targaryen. I won't argue that. Though, I think you are wrong when you say the "Targaryens LIFTED their staus well above their standing." We don't know much about their history compared to the Starks or the Baratheons. Yet, it does seem House Tully of Riverrun were one of the oldest and most powerful houses of the Riverlands. For their aid in the rebellion, they were made Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. A step up, but not nearly as shocking as making the Tyrells Lord Paramount of the Reach, much less Littlefinger. The Tyrells were the equivalent of House Poole, stewards. They held no lands of their owns, just helped the administration for House Gardener. Most of the other river lords seem to accept Tully as the rightful Lords Paramount, with the Freys being the real upstarts with less than a 1,000 year history for their house.

Anyways, by marrying his daugthers to Eddard and Jon, Hoster could rebel in the name of FAMILY, instead of just HONOR, because DUTY comes before HONOR.

[Arya kiddin']

They had a chance to ally themselves directly with two of the most powerful houses in the 7 Kingdoms, and a third indirectly (Baratheon). They were caught in the line of fire with the Starks to the north and Arryns to the east. The west was of uncertain loyalty. They were in a precarious position. Furthermore, the King butchered his daughter's fiance. The way the Mad King was, he could have asked for Hoster's head to for being friends to traitors.

Edited for grammar

This. :agree:

Connections... They were already connected with Starks. Hoster was also great politician, and he must have sensed that the Targaryens are done. Also, with Brandon, died Mallister heir, so that also included Riverlands...

Cat described Hoster as the staunchest man who ever lived. Surely he could not ignore such a slight to his bannerman.

[Lonin]

This is an interesting question.

Remember, the rebels were the underdogs... most thought the royalists would win.

What did the Tully's actually get out of the rebellion? was marrying off two daughters really worth the risk of losing all? What rewards did Tullys get after rebellion?

I guess the strategic alliances via the two marriages were deemed rewards enough.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

This is an interesting question.

Remember, the rebels were the underdogs... most thought the royalists would win.

What did the Tully's actually get out of the rebellion? was marrying off two daughters really worth the risk of losing all? What rewards did Tullys get after rebellion?

I guess the strategic alliances via the two marriages were deemed rewards enough.

That's an interesting point. Especially considering how many of the Blackfyre rebellions failed. But in general, the strength of the Targaryens had waned significantly by this point. Aerys had been crazy for a while. It was just a good time to take a gamble. They gambled that the other houses wouldnt fight too hard to keep the Targaryens in power.

Remember most of the Westeros houses existed long before the Targaryens. Without dragons and with a loss of influence.. i believe the houses began to imagine a future without them as well. It was just the matter of who would take the throne.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

I'm of the opinion that the tourney at Harrenhall was meant for Rhaegar to get all the lords together and see who would support his removal of Aerys. Its been suggested that Varys' warnings to Aerys were legit: Rhaegar was plotting to remove him from power do to deepening madness. Word of his madness had to have been spreading throughout the land. It would seem that Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully, and Jon Arryn were all colluding with one another, in preparation for this moment. They all intermarry and trade wards, cementing the alliance before any battles are fought. There were probably 2 conspiracies against Aerys, at least one of them headed up by Rhaegar. The tourney at Harrenhall was probably Rhaegar's chance to meet with these other Lords and turn them from open rebellion to just a peaceful bloodless coup.

"Heads up, boys, I'm about to be king."

Rhaegar was well-liked, he probably had high hopes. Then things popped off differently than he had planned. I think the Huis Clos and various other posts lay out the theory in more detail. I'll try and find a link.

I think this is partly right. I think Rhaegar was about to take over. However, he seemed to be staging his coup using secondary houses as his allies. In particular, we know that the Whents were in on the plot. It's rumored that they hosted the Tourney at Harrenhall to help Rhaegar build his strength. If the Whents were pro-Rhaegar the possibility of the seat of power in the Riverlands moving back to Harrenhall would have been a real concern for Hoster Tully. The Whents and Freys are both at the Tourney but there's no mention of Hoster, Edmure, Catelyn or Lysa.