Renly's plan when Robert died

[ImpinAintEasy]

Gotta add in that Ned had already at that point warned Cersei that he knew of King Turds parentage

A bloodless grab pretty much impossible at that point.

[Mountain Tribesman]

It is worth mentioning a strike to "obtain" Joffrey before Robert died might not have worked, even with 100 swords. Cersei's household guard numbered a couple hundred, I think. And the Hound alone was probably worth a dozen men in a fight. Regardless, it would have been a bloodbath. Eddard's plan of getting the much larger force of Goldcloaks to side with him making victory numerically impossible for the Lannister household guard sounds a lot cleaner.

It didn't turn out clean... because Ned was far too trusting of the wrong people (Littlefinger, Slynt) and too suspicious of the right people (Varys). I'd rather have 100 good men and a good ally (Renly) than several hundred Goldcloak men who'd impale my own men and turn me over to the Lannisters...

In the end, it all comes down to Littlefinger's endless scheming.

[A Man Has Said]

Thanks for posting that. I think that explains what Renly wanted. He simply wanted to help Ned. I guess the idea to become King was really Mace's idea

You're welcome. To be fair to usrnmhsnmning it explains what Renly says he wanted at this point in time.

Mace's idea was to make Margaery Queen. His first attempt was apparently to have Robert shed himself of Cersei and marry her, and Renly seems to have known about that and co-operated before Robert was gored by the boar.

I would say that Renly's first goal was exactly as he stated; to keep Joffrey and Cersei the hell away from the iron throne. What a lot of people find contentious about that is that he didn't seem to think Stannis was a good option when he found out (much later) that he had also declared. But by that point, to be fair to Renly, the younger brother was already committed to his own plan, and that commitment was sealed by his marriage to Margaery.

~~~

[...]

I know what was said. I however don't think that Renlys attempts at the crown in ACoK were a spur of the moment occurrence. I don't think the Tyrells saw Robert's death as a random chance to usurp the throne. I think that Renly and the Tyrells were planning the removal of the Lannisters for a very long time. I believe the fact that they were able to immediately assemble an army near a hundred thousand strong is evidence enough that usurping the throne was always on the table, and I think when Renly discusses Margaery and Lyanna with Ned it was an indication of the goals of removing Cersei and co from the picture and replacing them with Tyrells.

If you really think Renly just decided after leaving Kings Landing "Oh, I'll just crown myself now. Why not?" and hadn't been plotting with the Tyrells for a while, then I don't really know what to say. I think it's quite naive to think Renly and the Tyrell's actions were opportunistic and spur of the moment, and not intentionally planned.

And why would Renly mention to Ned "Oh by the way I intend to take the throne for myself"? He wouldn't. He'd instead use him to take control of the throne and then get rid of him as well. Those 100 swords may have been in Neds "hand", but they serve the Tyrells and Renly, not Ned. You seem to be acting on the basis that Renly apparently can't have been lying or misleading Ned. What makes him such a paragon of virtue and honesty? The guy adamantly intends to usurp his nephew (and his older brother if he chooses to believe the incest claims), but apparently weeks before this you're suggesting he was a supporter of Joffrey and Ned as rulers with no intentions whatsoever of taking the throne? I don't buy it.

The way I interpret things is to read the book that GRRM wrote and judge the characters and their actions by what it says in the book. Your whole analysis goes against the grain of that method. You've chosen beforehand to take a dim view of Renly, and then you interpret everything you read in the worst possible way to condemn him, while making assumptions about his character that I don't think derive from the text.

His main goal is to remove the Lannisters from power as much as possible. Renly is quite astute politically, far more than either of his elder brothers, and he has indeed been working to make alliances with the Tyrells "and other friends besides, knights and lords." He actually strikes me as the most intelligent of the Baratheons by far, and far from being power hungry he really does seem to be acting in the best interests of the realm - including in his opposition to Stannis.

Let's not forget that he's been sitting on Robert's Small Council for some time, and he witnessed the incident at the Ruby Ford with Mycah. Give the man some credit. He's seen Cersei and Joffrey up close and personal, and he doesn't like what he sees - not at all.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

The way I interpret things is to read the book that GRRM wrote and judge the characters and their actions by what it says in the book. Your whole analysis goes against the grain of that method. You've chosen beforehand to take a dim view of Renly, and then you interpret everything you read in the worst possible way to condemn him, while making assumptions about his character that I don't think derive from the text.

No I haven't, no I don't, and everything I've said about his character is supported in the text, to the point the character himself outright declares himself exactly the way I've described him. You've just basically declared that I have come to my conclusions in a particular way with absolutely no way to prove that I "chose beforehand to take a dim view of Renly". How on earth could you possibly know what my opinion of Renly was, and before WHAT exactly? This thread? You've just made massive broad assumptions to belittle my opinion.

The rest of your post is just supporting my opinion that Renly planned this out, what with his "other friends", his political mind, etc etc etc.

[A Man Has Said]

OK, fine. Show me somewhere in the text where any character (other than Stannis, who hates him for usurping his 'rightful' throne) expresses an opinion that Renly is dishonest, which is what your entire post is based on - "I don't buy it."

If you're saying he's a liar, back it up with something from the text. If you can't do that I will continue to assume exactly what I said - that you've formed assumptions that don't come from the book.

I actually quite like the character, and I can point to places in the book where he is written as being a likable character, and other places where people give good opinions of him.

They stood quietly at the back of the hall as Arya spoke. When she got to the part where she threw Joffrey's sword into the middle of the Trident, Renly Baratheon began to laugh. The king bristled. "Ser Barristan, escort my brother from the hall before he chokes."

Lord Renly stifled his laughter. "My brother is too kind. I can find the door myself." He bowed to Joffrey, "Perchance later you'll tell me how a nine-year-old girl the size of a wet rat managed to disarm you with a broom handle and throw your sword in the river." As the door swung shut behind him, Ned heard him say, "Lion's Tooth" and guffaw once more.

Comedic gold, that.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

I think Renly wanted to keep his head. He knows that Cersei is after him and with Robert dead, he knows he could be next. His only alternative is to ally himself to Ned.

Yes, the Tyrells wanted to make Margaery Queen but the plan was to marry her to Robert, not Renly. They only came up with the idea to make Renly King when Robert was dead.

[Sullen]

I agree with our polar friend here, there is no signs of Renly being dishonest if we dismiss the very objectivity-empty rantings of Stannis.

[LuisDantas]

After Robert dictated his will to Ned, Renly offered Ned 100 men to seize the children.

First of all, how likely is it that Renly would have succeeded in doing so? What would the casualties on both sides be if he did attempt to take the children? And finally what was he planning to do?

He was clear that he considered speed of the essence (so much so that he left King's Landing as soon as Ned refused his support). Had he acted quickly, particularly with Ned's support, he had a very good chance of solving the crisis with a minimum of bloodshed. Cersei and Joffrey would be captured fairly quickly, Tywin would be tied by their well-being and busy with the Riverlands at the same time.

Would he have given Ned the children? Would he have kept them himself? Taken them to Storm's End? Was he planning to claim the Throne with Ned there

He admitted to Ned that he saw himself as the next King and I see no reason to doubt him. He might well give Cersei or at least her children to Ned, but that is uncertain.

or would he have gone to Storm's End anyway once he had his hostages?

I don't think he would leave King's Landing just after consolidating his power there. He would have no reason to.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

there is no signs of Renly being dishonest if we dismiss the very objectivity-empty rantings of Stannis.

That's great, because I used Renlys actions as evidence and not other characters opinions of his honor to come to my conclusion. Which is why I'm not gonna trawl through the books to find something irrelevant to my point. My conclusion is drawn from Renlys conversation about Lyanna and Margaery, and his immediate declaration and crowning once Robert died. I dunno why I'm then being asked to find quotes about Renlys dishonesty. What does that actually have to do with my conclusions being drawn from his actions? People don't have to agree with me if they don't want to. Besides, Ned and Renly himself both consider his actions (kidnapping and usurping respectively) dishonorable.

[LuisDantas]

But wouldn't he also have to deal with Ned who wanted to give the throne to Stannis?

He hoped to convince Ned away from that. And he should have succeeded, particularly under the circunstances. Ned almost accepted his offer.

As I see it, Renly was plenty willing to negotiate some arrangement with Ned, keeping him as Regent for Joffrey or Hand for himself, as long as Tywin, Stannis, Joffrey and Cersei could be kept away from power.

All things considered, as good a choice as anyone could hope for at that point in time.

By offering 100 men to Ned it was clear that he wanted Ned's support before he tried anything. But what if Ned told him that he was going to give the Throne to Stannis? Renly surely wouldn't like that.

Which is why he gave up on King's Landing at that time.

[LuisDantas]

Besides, Ned and Renly himself both consider his actions (kidnapping and usurping respectively) dishonorable.

Renly certainly did not, and Ned was divided at worst. I do not know how you can have concluded otherwise.

Do you have anything from the books to back that conclusion? Particularly the "Renly considered his own actions dishonorable" part? I'm pretty certain that can't be concluded by the text alone.

[Mountain Tribesman]

Comedic gold, that.

Yes, Renly definitely made it a great scene. A pity Robert didn't have a bit more balls so he could tell Cersei and her dumb idiot son to piss off instead of having Lady killed.

It's a pity, I almost would've liked to see Joffrey living a bit longer, only so Arya could get around to a second encounter, with more permanent results.

[ImpinAintEasy]

I think Renly wanted to keep his head. He knows that Cersei is after him and with Robert dead, he knows he could be next. His only alternative is to ally himself to Ned.

Yes, the Tyrells wanted to make Margaery Queen but the plan was to marry her to Robert, not Renly. They only came up with the idea to make Renly King when Robert was dead.

Agreed

Also, its hard to take Renly's actions when its Cersei/Joffrey on the IT and assume that he would act the same way with Ned in power. Ned had a reputation as a fair and honorable lord, and being an uncle and small council member he knew how Cersei/Joffrey would rule. Renly went for the IT and oposed Stanis because he truly believed he'd be the better king and in peace time I'd have to agree but in a war against the Others, between the two, I go with Stanis.

Anyone truely believe Renly wouldn't swear Ned to fealty and let him go if he wasn't killed by Stanis' shadow and had taken King's Landing?

[Petyr Patter]

Most of the quotes below are gleaned from a Clash of Kings. Renly seems to have a lot to say on being king. I think he was always thinking that direction. He wouldn't kill Robert to make that happen, but he was never going to be satisfied with Eddard as Lord Protector.

Why the oldest son, and not the best-fitted? The crown will suit me, as it never suited Robert and would not suit Stannis.

The Targaryens called Robert usurper. He seemed to be able to bear the shame. So shall I.

Tyrell swords will make me king. Rowan and Tarly and Caron will make me king, with axe and mace and warhammer. Tarth arrows and Penrose lances, Fossoway, Cuy, Mullendore, Estermont, Selmy, Hightower, Oakheart, Crane, Caswell, Blackbar, Morrigen, Beesbury, Shermer, Dunn, Footly . . . even House Florent, your own wife’s brothers and uncles, they will make me king. All the chivalry of the south rides with me, and that is the least part of my power. My foot is coming behind, a hundred thousand swords and spears and pikes. And you will destroy me? With what, pray? That paltry rabble I see there huddled under the castle walls? I’ll call them five thousand and be generous, codfish lords and onion knights and sellswords. Half of them are like to come over to me before the battle starts. You have fewer than four hundred horse, my scouts tell me-freeriders in boiled leather who will not stand an instant against armored lances. I do not care how seasoned a warrior you think you are, Stannis, that host of yours won’t survive the first charge of my vanguard.

Tell me, what right did my brother Robert ever have to the Iron Throne?... Robert won the throne with his warhammer.

He swept a hand across the campfires that burned from horizon to horizon. “Well, there is my claim, as good as Robert’s ever was."

King is only a word, but fealty, loyalty, service . . . those I must have.

I mean to be king, my lady, and not of a broken kingdom. I cannot say it plainer than that.

You may well have the better claim, Stannis, but I still have the larger army.

I have it in me to be a great king, strong yet generous, clever, just, diligent, loyal to my friends and terrible to my enemies, yet capable of forgiveness, patient...

[TheWizard]

There s waaaay to many bad asumptions in this thread. He wanted to support Ned, get the Lannisters out of power, and keep his council position maybe upgrade to hand. He only crowned himself after shit hit the fan.

[Petyr Patter]

There s waaaay to many bad asumptions in this thread. He wanted to support Ned, get the Lannisters out of power, and keep his council position maybe upgrade to hand. He only crowned himself after shit hit the fan.

Yet, later he refuses to recognize Stannis as the rightful heir, even as Catelyn tells him that she's convinced Cersei's children are Jaime's. Joining forces with Stannis was the smart move, and all he had to do was not be king. He would have kept his council seat, Storm's End, and still be Stannis's heir. He refused. What does this tell us about Renly?

Heck, even before that he could have stuck out King's Landing with Ned, while finding more men. Renly could have also made a better sales pitch to make sure the Goldcloaks were on their side. Yet, he did not. He ran to Highgarden and quickly got crowned king.

I'm not saying Renly was a bad person, or that he was committed to seizing the crown. But, I definitely think he was thinking it, longterm.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Heck, even before that he could have stuck out King's Landing with Ned, while finding more men. Renly could have also made a better sales pitch to make sure the Goldcloaks were on their side. Yet, he did not. He ran to Highgarden and quickly got crowned king.

Cant hold that against Renly, even Stanis didn't stick out King's Landing

Renly is definately complicated: not as bad as some make him out and not as altruistic as others make out.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Renly certainly did not, and Ned was divided at worst. I do not know how you can have concluded otherwise.

Do you have anything from the books to back that conclusion? Particularly the "Renly considered his own actions dishonorable" part? I'm pretty certain that can't be concluded by the text alone.

Why don't you open the books yourself, read the conversation Ned and Renly have and the follow-up thoughts Ned has in which the words 'dishonour' and 'not honourable' make a fair few appearances. Read through Cat's PoV in Renlys camp, or better yet, read the quotes that have already been posted and tell me Renly see's what he's doing as honourable and right. He blatantly states he knows he's usurping and doesn't care. I don't even know how anyone could argue that Renly doesn't consider his actions as dishonourable. They are; he just does not care.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Yes but there is dishonour and Dishonour

Ned dishonoured himself by lying about about his "treason" to save his children and Walder Frey Dishonours himself with the Red Wedding for a power grab

Gota say Renly falls somewhere in between, leaning a little towards Ned because IMO he believed he was doing what was right for the realm but not alot because he definately got seduced by the power and idea of being king

[Winter's Knight]

Bah.

Renly and Ned, GoT:

Cayn and Tomard were helping Ned across the bridge when Lord Renly emerged from Maegor’s Holdfast. “Lord Eddard,” he called after Ned, “a moment, if you would be so kind.”

Ned stopped. “As you wish.”

Renly walked to his side. “Send your men away.” They met in the center of the bridge, the dry moat beneath them. Moonlight silvered the cruel edges of the spikes that lined its bed.

Ned gestured. Tomard and Cayn bowed their heads and backed away respectfully. Lord Renly glanced warily at Ser Boros on the far end of the span, at Ser Preston in the doorway behind them. “That letter.” He leaned close. “Was it the regency? Has my brother named you Protector?” He did not wait for a reply. “My lord, I have thirty men in my personal guard, and other friends beside, knights and lords. Give me an hour, and I can put a hundred swords in your hand.”

“And what should I do with a hundred swords, my lord?”

“Strike! Now, while the castle sleeps.” Renly looked back at Ser Boros again and dropped his voice to an urgent whisper. “We must get Joffrey away from his mother and take him in hand. Protector or no, the man who holds the king holds the kingdom. We should seize Myrcella and Tommen as well. Once we have her children, Cersei will not dare oppose us. The council will confirm you as Lord Protector and make Joffrey your ward.”

Ned regarded him coldly. “Robert is not dead yet. The gods may spare him. If not, I shall convene the council to hear his final words and consider the matter of the succession, but I will not dishonor his last hours on earth by shedding blood in his halls and dragging frightened children from their beds.”

Lord Renly took a step back, taut as a bowstring. “Every moment you delay gives Cersei another moment to prepare. By the time Robert dies, it may be too late ... for both of us.”

“Then we should pray that Robert does not die.”

“Small chance of that,” said Renly.

“Sometimes the gods are merciful.”

“The Lannisters are not.” Lord Renly turned away and went back across the moat, to the tower where his brother lay dying.

I don't see any dishonour in Renly's proposal. I do see buckets of idiocy in Ned's refusal.

ETA: Ned agrees.

By the time Ned returned to his chambers, he felt weary and heartsick, yet there was no question of his going back to sleep, not now. When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die, Cersei Lannister had told him in the godswood. He found himself wondering if he had done the right thing by refusing Lord Renly’s offer. He had no taste for these intrigues, and there was no honor in threatening children, and yet ... if Cersei elected to fight rather than flee, he might well have need of Renly’s hundred swords, and more besides