Renly's plan when Robert died

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Bah.

Renly and Ned, GoT:

I don't see any dishonour in Renly's proposal. I do see buckets of idiocy in Ned's refusal.

ETA: Ned agrees.

Is that because you choose not to see it?

and there was no honor in threatening children, and yet ..

I will not dishonor his last hours on earth by shedding blood in his halls and dragging frightened children from their beds.”

Ned blatantly sees it as dishonourable. What part of any of what you quoted paints Renly in anything but a negative light?

[Winter's Knight]

Is that because you choose not to see it?

Ned blatantly sees it as dishonourable. What part of any of what you quoted paints Renly in anything but a negative light?

It's sensible, for a start. You need only to look at the jostling over custody of Edward VI in English history to realise that holding the heirs to the throne is crucial if said heirs are children. Had Ned had custody of Cersei's children, do you really believe she'd have attacked him? It was an insurance he needed, especially since it was quite clear that she had no notion of fleeing. Ned starts doubting his decision almost as soon as Renly left him.

[David Selig]

Is that because you choose not to see it?

Ned blatantly sees it as dishonourable. What part of any of what you quoted paints Renly in anything but a negative light?

Renly was smart and realistic in this case, Ned was hopelessly naive as usual. I'd say the former is a lot more positive than the latter.

[James Arryn]

Is that because you choose not to see it?

Ned blatantly sees it as dishonourable. What part of any of what you quoted paints Renly in anything but a negative light?

Er.

Being slightly less honourable than Ned at his most naive...and even Ned qualifies it...is not being dishonourable or portrayed in a negative light.

With Renly, people always add to the text. There are levels of criticism aimed his way based either on the TV version, things he did not know (cite the many in here asking why not Stannis with the incest thing, which he did not know about) or just wanting to.

Renly's plan was the best option. It was the smartest, the most practical, would have lead to the least bloodshed, and it was the best for the kingdom. And it was in Renly and Ned's as well, as both were clear enemies of the Lannisters, just as Renly said.

And there is NOTHING to suggest it was the Tyrell's plan.

And Renly later deciding to be king is just that...LATER. And his reasons were given here to Ned: the best option, and self-preservation.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

It's sensible, for a start. You need only to look at the jostling over custody of Edward VI in English history to realise that holding the heirs to the throne is crucial if said heirs are children. Had Ned had custody of Cersei's children, do you really believe she'd have attacked him? It was an insurance he needed, especially since it was quite clear that she had no notion of fleeing. Ned starts doubting his decision almost as soon as Renly left him.

Renly was smart and realistic in this case, Ned was hopelessly naive as usual. I'd say the former is a lot more positive than the latter.

That's all well and good, but what was being discussed was actually whether or not Renly and Ned considered the action of taking the kids as honourable or not. I'm well aware of the benefits of the act. That's certainly not in question.

Er.

Being slightly less honourable than Ned at his most naive...and even Ned qualifies it...is not being dishonourable or portrayed in a negative light.

The words DISHONOUR and NOT HONOURABLE are used explicitly in Neds thoughts. How is it NOT being portrayed in a negative light?

Renly's plan was the best option. It was the smartest, the most practical, would have lead to the least bloodshed, and it was the best for the kingdom. And it was in Renly and Ned's as well, as both were clear enemies of the Lannisters, just as Renly said.

Whether or not it was a good option isn't relevant to how the two men viewed it in a sense of morality. Why is it every poster keeps saying "Oh but it was the best option". And? Did I dispute that? You guys are just shifting the debate away from whether or not Renly and Ned thought it was an honourable move. They clearly didn't. And even that discussion moves away from my OPINION that Renly had ulterior motives over it.

And there is NOTHING to suggest it was the Tyrell's plan.

And Renly later deciding to be king is just that...LATER. And his reasons were given here to Ned: the best option, and self-preservation.

There IS something to suggest it; the first action taken by the Tyrells with Roberts death was to marry Marge to Renly and declare them King and Queen. Followed immediately by mass mobilization of their armies to usurp the throne. It's pretty BLATANTLY obvious that it was the Tyrells plan, and Renlys prior discussion about Margaery looking like Lyanna was a pretty major hint that he wants to remove the Lannisters altogether and replace them with the Tyrells. Do you think he was alone in this plan? Cause I don't. Of all the things GRRM writes subtly into the text, this was one of his more blatant ones. The Tyrell-Renly movement in ACoK was not spur of the moment. I don't know how anyone could think that.

[Lost Melnibonean]

He admitted to Ned that he saw himself as the next King and I see no reason to doubt him.

Only in the show--not the books.

[LuisDantas]

Is that because you choose not to see it?

Ned blatantly sees it as dishonourable. What part of any of what you quoted paints Renly in anything but a negative light?

All of it, really. Ned is not even objecting to Renly's plan as such. He is just bugged that he is being invited to shed blood while Robert has just recently died.

He states as much.

[LuisDantas]

Only in the show--not the books.

Hmm, sorry. You are correct.

[SeanF]

That's all well and good, but what was being discussed was actually whether or not Renly and Ned considered the action of taking the kids as honourable or not. I'm well aware of the benefits of the act. That's certainly not in question.

The words DISHONOUR and NOT HONOURABLE are used explicitly in Neds thoughts. How is it NOT being portrayed in a negative light?

Whether or not it was a good option isn't relevant to how the two men viewed it in a sense of morality. Why is it every poster keeps saying "Oh but it was the best option". And? Did I dispute that? You guys are just shifting the debate away from whether or not Renly and Ned thought it was an honourable move. They clearly didn't. And even that discussion moves away from my OPINION that Renly had ulterior motives over it.

There IS something to suggest it; the first action taken by the Tyrells with Roberts death was to marry Marge to Renly and declare them King and Queen. Followed immediately by mass mobilization of their armies to usurp the throne. It's pretty BLATANTLY obvious that it was the Tyrells plan, and Renlys prior discussion about Margaery looking like Lyanna was a pretty major hint that he wants to remove the Lannisters altogether and replace them with the Tyrells. Do you think he was alone in this plan? Cause I don't. Of all the things GRRM writes subtly into the text, this was one of his more blatant ones. The Tyrell-Renly movement in ACoK was not spur of the moment. I don't know how anyone could think that.

Ned sees it as dishonourable, but should we do? Not if it had led to peace and stability in Westeros.

OTOH, if as you say, it would have just resulted in Renly carrying out a coup, backed by the Tyrells, then how would that outcome have been any better? Ned would have been at best a puppet, and perhaps in as much danger from Renly as he was from Cersei. I can't imagine that Renly would have had any qualms about killing either the children or Cersei.

[LuisDantas]

Ned sees it as dishonourable, but should we do? Not if it had led to peace and stability in Westeros.

OTOH, if as you say, it would have just resulted in Renly carrying out a coup, backed by the Tyrells, then how would that outcome have been any better?

I just don't see why you would even have any doubts on the matter, personally.

Ned would have been at best a puppet,

Is that so? Even assuming for a moment that it is a fact, how would that be any worse than the alternatives?

and perhaps in as much danger from Renly as he was from Cersei. I can't imagine that Renly would have had any qualms about killing either the children or Cersei.

Why would Renly even have any animosity towards Ned? And why do you think he would want to kill the children or even Cersei?

[Sansa_Stark]

If Renly killed Ned or had him imprisoned, he would face defiance from Robb and he later wanted fealty from the North.

I don't think he would have attacked him.

[SeanF]

Why would Renly even have any animosity towards Ned? And why do you think he would want to kill the children or even Cersei?

They're rivals. And enemies. Renly wanted the Iron Throne, after Robert's death, and was prepared to fight his older brother for it. Renly had no qualms about wanting to assasinate Daenerys, so why would he baulk at Cersei, Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella?

Ned would have objected to these killings, and in any event, he would have supported Stannis. So. his life would have been in great danger.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Ned sees it as dishonourable, but should we do? Not if it had led to peace and stability in Westeros.

OTOH, if as you say, it would have just resulted in Renly carrying out a coup, backed by the Tyrells, then how would that outcome have been any better? Ned would have been at best a puppet, and perhaps in as much danger from Renly as he was from Cersei. I can't imagine that Renly would have had any qualms about killing either the children or Cersei.

I'm not arguing whether or not it was better. I simply stated my opinion that Renly wanted to use Ned to gain control for himself. I'm just defending that opinion.

[LuisDantas]

They're rivals. And enemies. Renly wanted the Iron Throne, after Robert's death, and was prepared to fight his older brother for it. Renly had no qualms about wanting to assasinate Daenerys, so why would he baulk at Cersei, Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella?

He lacked a reason to kill then and he would worry about backslash.

Ned would have objected to these killings, and in any event, he would have supported Stannis.

The more I think about it, the more I doubt Ned would object to Renly's claim.

So. his life would have been in great danger.

I just don't see why.

[LuisDantas]

I'm not arguing whether or not it was better. I simply stated my opinion that Renly wanted to use Ned to gain control for himself. I'm just defending that opinion.

Everyone used Ned during AGOT, truth be told. Late Jon Arryn, Catelyn, Robert, Varys, Petyr Baelish. Even Cersei.

[A Man Has Said]

Renly was smart and realistic in this case, Ned was hopelessly naive as usual. I'd say the former is a lot more positive than the latter.

Pretty much. :agree:

If Ned draws any fire in this forum, it's for being TOO damned honourable to his own detriment. Being too honourable (and rejecting Renly's sage advice) is what led to Ned's death. Also, in the book the very next conversation he has is with Littlefinger - significantly AFTER he's had a chance to regret rejecting Renly's offer. So he ends up making a deal that is in many respects less honourable, and far less practical. (Because it looks exactly like what it is; a coup d'etat.)

Er.

Being slightly less honourable than Ned at his most naive...and even Ned qualifies it...is not being dishonourable or portrayed in a negative light.

With Renly, people always add to the text. There are levels of criticism aimed his way based either on the TV version, things he did not know (cite the many in here asking why not Stannis with the incest thing, which he did not know about) or just wanting to.

Renly's plan was the best option. It was the smartest, the most practical, would have lead to the least bloodshed, and it was the best for the kingdom. And it was in Renly and Ned's as well, as both were clear enemies of the Lannisters, just as Renly said.

And there is NOTHING to suggest it was the Tyrell's plan.

And Renly later deciding to be king is just that...LATER. And his reasons were given here to Ned: the best option, and self-preservation.

I've already spoken to Ned's naivete above.

"With Renly, people always add to the text."

Yes, there is a lot of hate directed at Renly that doesn't come from the text. We may as well acknowledge where it does come from; people trying to justify Stannis killing him by making him out to be a much worse person than he is in the book.

"Renly's plan was the best option."

Yes it was, and Ned immediately realized he'd made a mistake by rejecting it. I think that his accepting Littlefinger's offer minutes later was meant to be seen as him overcompensating for his mistake.

And how dishonourable was it really? I think that's been WAY overblown. It's common standard practice to take peoples' children hostage in Westeros when they've shown themselves to be untrustworthy. The Lannisters have done that in spades; Jaime the kingslayer, Tywin the sack of KL, Cersei having Lady killed, and Ned believes Tyrion responsible for the assassination attempt on Bran. He was wrong about that, but it was still a Lannister - Joffrey. Taking some hostages was the right thing to do under the circumstances. Renly saw that, Ned did too, but too late.

"And Renly deciding to be king is just that...LATER."

Not just later in time, but significantly AFTER Ned had been beheaded, showing just what kind of rule could be expected from Joffrey. And knowing his brother Stannis, Renly well knew that if he ended up on the throne he would be beheading (or as it turns out, burning) people left and right for any slight real or imagined. Stannis may have been an option, but he wasn't necessarily a better option.

I agree that Renly's offer of 100 swords and plan to take Joffrey was not a Tyrell plan, but the later idea to declare himself king almost certainly was - and came with a deal sealed by marriage to Margaery.

[Victor227]

One thing is that Renly did not know about the incest. He also didn't know that Ned intended to crown Stannis.

In the end, so little is known about Renly that we'll never be able to discern his true motivations. His trying to replace Cersei with Margery can be seen as either him loyally trying to replace the woman who was poisoning Robert's life, and eventually ending it, or him acting on behalf of the power-hungry Tyrells and their ambition (for Robert, the result would have been pretty positive either way). Likewise, his offer to Ned could have been deceitful or it could have been honest. Even his crowning could have been a last-ditch effort, a Tyrell plan with him as the pawn, or a result of long scheming of his own.

I'm inclined to think his offer to Ned was on the honest side. If they did secure Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella and break the Lannisters in King's Landing, Ned is the one who walks away with all the power. Naturally Renly could potentially backstab him, he'd have more allied swords than Ned had guards, but it would not only be a bloody business, as he'd be doing it from the lower position of power, but a far riskier one than we've seen him have the stomach for as well. Allies today may not be allies tomorrow. His swords were friends, not the sworn-swords of Ned's guard.

There's a good clue in literally the first words to come from Renly's lips. He wanted to know if Ned was the Lord Protector. He wanted the shield of Ned's new-found power when they chased out the Lannisters and secured the throne. Stannis would have soured the issue, but Renly didn't -know- that Ned had warned Cersei and intended to install Stannis. At the time, the issue for him was securing the King and beating Cersei and the Lannisters, which is a consistent goal of his.

Show-Renly really poisons the waters regarding any discussion of the character. As they're almost completely different between the two mediums.

[illrede]

OK, fine. Show me somewhere in the text where any character (other than Stannis, who hates him for usurping his 'rightful' throne) expresses an opinion that Renly is dishonest, which is what your entire post is based on - "I don't buy it.

Renly's essential dishonesty is enabled by his charm. To whit, compare the scene of Brienne gaining her blue cloak, Brienne's recollection of Renly's progress to Tarth, and what Loras offhands about it all to Jaime. He despised her as much as anyone, he simply cultivated her devotion as a matter of course and resolved to profit by it when the matter came up. But you would never know to see his conduct; he's charming. He charms people. They then ascribe him good motives.

[Mad Monkey]

If Ned draws any fire in this forum, it's for being TOO damned honourable to his own detriment. Being too honourable (and rejecting Renly's sage advice) is what led to Ned's death. Also, in the book the very next conversation he has is with Littlefinger - significantly AFTER he's had a chance to regret rejecting Renly's offer. So he ends up making a deal that is in many respects less honourable, and far less practical. (Because it looks exactly like what it is; a coup d'etat.)

I've never understood what Eddard's plan with LF was honorable when Renly's identical plot wasn't? Eddard's reason for rejecting him always struck me as vague and poorly thought-out (did he really think that Robert was going to pull through??? That's laughable even by their standards of medical science -- Eddard already knew that Robert was dying soon after he saw the injuries and after he took down Robert's last will) We often think of Eddard's mistake being choosing an honorable if foolish plan to work with LF over a dishonorable but effective plan with Renly, but honestly I don't see any difference between what Renly suggests and what Eddard actually does.

The only difference is that instead of attacking Joffrey and Cersei at night Eddard decides to do it in the morning. It certainly wasn't to keep Cersei or her children safe; I would argue that they were in more physical danger in a fight between the Kingsguard/redcloaks and northmen/goldcloaks. Sneaking up on them in the night and arresting them would have been unpleasant and scary for the children but certainly not more so than a full-out brawl in the throne room.

I understand the argument that Renly might have been planning to betray Ned at some point. But the key word here is that Renly was planning to betray Ned later on, after everything was over. Even if Renly decided to overthrow Ned the next week, that's still a week that he could have used to make his own plans or at the very least get his daughters out of the city and to safety. Instead, Eddard took a hugely risky course of action that would have remained dangerous even if LF and Janos had been loyal to him.

[Jasta11]

As I see it, the plan was;

1. Seize the Lannister children. With them Cercei will never move against you.

2. Confirm Ned as Regent. Every kingdom but the Lannisters would agree with this (in the plan, I mean), so they have no choice but to bend the knee.

3. In exchange for his help, Renly asks Ned for a high office? He can't ask to be made king since Ned would be Joffrey's regent. The Regent could appoint a Hand I suppose, maybe that was Renly's initial objective.

I don't know what Renly's long-term plans were besides. At this point he does not wish to be king I think, nor does he have the full backing of the Tyrells as that happens after he weds Maergery. I truly think he wants personnal power (which he would obviously lose with Cercei on top) but also acts to prevent the Lannisters from taking power. He's been at court with them for a long time, he knows how they are, and while Renly is no saint I think even he is pretty disgusted with them.

Honestly, while I'm no fan of Renly and I really like Ned, this was the best offer he had. In one fell swoop he would have broken the Lannister's influence, made a powerful friend, and secured his position against any counter-attack, not to mention bring peace to the Realm. A little time away from Cercei might have made Joffrey less of a cunt even. But while what he says to Renly is that he won't drag children out of their beds (a Ned-like thing to say if there ever was one), I think the real reason for brushing Renly off was that Joffrey was a bastard. He wanted to install Stannis, he just didn't want to say it to Renly so he made up a convincing excuse. If he had to, if he felt it had to be done, I'm pretty sure Ned would have taken children in their sleep. He did something similar with Theon at any rate.