Shae

[butterbumps!]

I wonder if these same people judge Ayra the same way they judge Tyrion? She has murdered people also. She murdered the nights watch deserter and the insurance merchant. Is she absolved of these things because we love her? All of you who scorn Tyrion for his actions should equally hate Arya, is this the case?

It's not a matter of who any of us love, it's an issue of acknowledging what's in the text. I think most readers acknowledge when Arya kills in cold blood. Not only would it be dishonest to argue that these are not murders, it negates how Arya's character evolves.

Similarly, it is completely dishonest to mitigate Tyrion's disproportionate response wrt Shae (and frankly their whole twisted relationship) with some argument about justification. Further, this and Tywin's murder, is a critical turning point in Tyrion's evolution. There's a difference between feeling sympathetic to Tyrion here, but it's something else to pretend that Tyrion is justified-- that is, morally excused, and by extension, that Shae is objectively villainous to have given that testimony and "deserved" it.

The frustration is in the whitewashing/ excusing Tyrion's actions and shifting that blame onto other parties, rendering Tyrion as some kind of victim or circumstances despite his having played the largest role in orchestrating said circumstances, having a longtime history of "women issues," and becoming murderous over her continuing the lie he paid her to sell (he strangles her for calling him "giant of Lannister," not the testimony, just to point this out).

[DaveSnow House Stark]

Heck yeah, Arya is a dangerous murderer, more so than Tyrion.

This being said, I totally disagree with labelling "hate" a perfectly valid observation. How is it hating them to note that they murder people without trying to whitewash it?

Right, they are both equally murderous, and I like their characters, doesn't make me a bad person. To me it's very hypocritical to hate Tyrion and judge him a monster while dismissing Arya's actions. Need to be fair.

[Jasta11]

Shae was far from a good person, she lied at Tyrion's trial and humiliated him (despite knowing fully well that this guy has serious issues) when she thought she was safe from his retribution. She fully recognized that he was a sad, desperate guy, and was more than happy to feed his delusions if it meant more money for her.

However, that doesn't make it OK to kill her at all. She was a whore, providing a service, and she did it very well. Their relashionship evolved somewhat over time, but that fact never changed. She was with Tyrion because of the money; any other reason is the Halfman deluding himself, and he knows it besides. Moving on to Tywin was simply good business for her (albeit it speaks very badly for Tywin himself, as if the man needed yet another bad notch on his karma) and not a ''betrayal'' at all, since betrayal implies loyalty was promised in the first place. Bumps makes a good point; Bronn does basically the same thing as Shae, and Tyrion accepts it with a laugh because he knows sellswords are fickle like that. But whores are just as fickle. Shae went above and beyond Bronn by publicly humiliating her former employer, which I hold against her, but she was under no obligation to die for him or something. Which is probably what would have happenned if she refused Cercei.

As for the point that Tyrion dragged Shae through this, true, but the Imp made it very clear from the beginning that this was what he required of her. He imposed a set of conditions the first time they met, and Shae agreed. She's just as guilty of following through with this as Tyrion is of putting her life in danger by bringing her to King's Landing.

[TalalOfDorne]

I wonder if these same people judge Ayra the same way they judge Tyrion? She has murdered people also. She murdered the nights watch deserter and the insurance merchant. Is she absolved of these things because we love her? All of you who scorn Tyrion for his actions should equally hate Arya, is this the case?

Hating and/or loving a character should be separated from justifying their unjustifiable actions or whitewashing them. Yes, both Arya and Tyrion have murdered, and yes both of them are wrong to do so. I say this and I like both of their characters.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

there area no good or bad in ASOIAF

there are grey characters

Tyrion did bad, Arya did bad, Lyanna did bad, Robert did bad, Randyll did bad, Jon did bad, Robb did bad, Catelyn did bad, Jaime did bad, Cersei did bad, Tywin did bad, Rhaegar did bad, Jorah Mormont did bad, Viserys did bad, Daenerys did bad (yes, she did), Khal Drogo did bad, Varys did bad, Littlfinger did bad, Pycelle did bad, Roose Bolton did bad, Walder Frey did bad, Little Walder did bad, Quentyn did bad, Hoster Tully did bad, Lysa Arryn did bad

the true evil so far: Joffrey and Ramsay

people who were good so far: Eddard Stark (not that he was perfect, I'm saying about honor)

If we keep discussing good and bad we are going to stay here forever

[nirolo]

No, see, the rule is that she's not to get visitors. He discovers Symon once the horse is out of the barn. He says this to Shae while simultaneously threatening Symon to silence. She's not to get any further visitors. He gives her a pretty bird to keep her company in the absence of visitors.

No. Without Tyrion Shae had no reason to leave. It's as simple as that. Shae really did not have much choice in whether to stay with Tyrion. He made that decision for her. Yes, she did not want to leave the city, but looking at their conversation in aSoS, Tyrion II, it's clear that she would have preferred to split from Tyrion and move on to more promising prospects as per her occupation as a prostitute.

Could you provide the quote? I have a bunch on my hand, and none of them indicates to me that Shae never had a choice.

As I mentioned upthread, Tyrion's feelings for Shae are conflicted between wanting a "real love" recreation of Tysha, and his feeling of ownership over her. He likes that he can command her as his employee, yet doesn't want the illusion of love to be broken. It's a really interesting dichotomy to be sure, but the text strongly indicates that Tyrion doesn't love "Shae the person" but rather "Shae as Tysha 2.0."

Well, maybe we should move this discussion to a different thread?

Here's what I have:

Quote 1:

This was what I was made for, and gods forgive me, but I do love it... And her. And her.

Quote 2:

Gladly would he have given her the promise she wanted, and gladly walked her back to his own bedchamber on his arm to let her dress in the silks and velvets she loved so much. Had the choice been his, she could have sat beside him at Joffrey’s wedding feast, and danced with all the bears she liked. But he could not see her hang.

Quote 3:

She bent over to give him one last kiss, upon the brow. “My giant of Lannister. I love you so.” And I love you as well, sweetling. A whore she might well be, but she deserved better than what he had to give her. I will wed her to Ser Tallad. He seems a decent man. And tall...

All these quotes indicate to me that Tyrion did love Shae.

It's not an issue of his succumbing to primal needs. The issue is the extent to which Tyrion genuinely cared for her as a person, what actually put Shae in danger, how reciprocal their "relationship" actually was, and whether Shae "owed" him anything.

Like I said, I blame Tyrion to the extent that he brought Shae to KL and for acquiescing to Shae wish to remain in there. It is Shae's fault for not listening to Tyrion's repeated warning of danger.

[Alhazred]

You think sending Silvertongue away would keep him shut about Shae? Come on, once the cat is out of the bag there is no putting it back.

Well, if he is going to murder anyone who knows about Shae, then obviously he should not see Shae.

To keep Shae safe, all he need do is send her away; or not send her away and simply stop seeing her.

Tywin's threat applied only to the future, not the past. To keep Shae safe, all he needed to do was stop seeing her.

[nirolo]

From these quotes nothing indicates to me that Symon expected that his action would threaten Shae's life, let alone Tyrion's (which we know is not true).

None of your quotes demonstrate that he was aware of any "consequences" beyond personal shame and embarassment to Tyrion.

You mean just like no where is it specifically stated that Tyrion paid Shae to love him?

[TalalOfDorne]

there area no good or bad in ASOIAF

there are grey characters

Tyrion did bad, Arya did bad, Lyanna did bad, Robert did bad, Randyll did bad, Jon did bad, Robb did bad, Catelyn did bad, Jaime did bad, Cersei did bad, Tywin did bad, Rhaegar did bad, Jorah Mormont did bad, Viserys did bad, Daenerys did bad (yes, she did), Khal Drogo did bad, Varys did bad, Littlfinger did bad, Pycelle did bad, Roose Bolton did bad, Walder Frey did bad, Little Walder did bad, Quentyn did bad, Hoster Tully did bad, Lysa Arryn did bad

the true evil so far: Joffrey and Ramsay

people who were good so far: Eddard Stark (not that he was perfect, I'm saying about honor)

If we keep discussing good and bad we are going to stay here forever

Yes, everyone did bad (Ned included). However, the extent of the "bad deed" differs from one character/action to another, and circumstances also play a part. For example, Shae humiliating Tyrion, is nowhere near as bad as him killing her. The problem is when people bash a character for doing something morally wrong, yet go out of their way to try to justify another characters even bigger atrocity. And unfortunately, its not something uncommon here.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

I have forgotten about the singer, but he ordered his assassination to keep Shae safe, in order to PROTECT her

[Errant Bard]

Right, they are both equally murderous, and I like their characters, doesn't make me a bad person.

No, but seeing you find repugnant rethoric to excuse murder can indicate that you are a bad person, because it indicates what you believe, how you think, and what your world view is. Does not matter if the subject is fictional or not, the reasoning and the justification are always real.

I don't know if you can quantify the murderousness, but you should not try to find excuses for their murders just because you like them. Overall, I find Tyrion to be an unlikable jerk, and Arya to be a likable scary brat, but it does not erase what they do.

[nirolo]

Well, if he is going to murder anyone who knows about Shae, then obviously he should not see Shae.

To keep Shae safe, all he need do is send her away; or not send her away and simply stop seeing her.

Tywin's threat applied only to the future, not the past. To keep Shae safe, all he needed to do was stop seeing her.

It's not that simple. Tyrion loved Shae, a fact if made known would mean that Shae would not be safe no matter where she went.

[Alhazred]

You mean just like no where is it specifically stated that Tyrion paid Shae to love him?

Why would I mean that? Why the comparison?

As far as I know, Tyrion never paid Shae at all. He gave her clothes and jewels, and then took them away again. He put her to work as a chamber maid and used her whenever convenient to him.

When he told her she "had to" leave King's Landing, she reminded him that he had promised to pay her. He ignores her hint, thereby depriving her of the option of leaving. How is she supposed to just leave King's Landing without money?

[Angalin]

Closing for length.