Shae

[James Arryn]

I in no way think Shae deserved to die, and that murder was a huge turning point for me re: Tyrion, but I also think it maringalizes what she did to just call it embarrassing him or perjury.

In a trial in which she knew his life or death was on the line, she lied on the 'death' side, and included details which went beyond what could be demanded of her ( in that no one else knew them). That was a significant betrayal, and I think Tyrion would rightly think of her as someone who tried to have him killed.

[nirolo]

How is it a strawman when in this thread it was already posted a few times that Shae deserved to die because she embarassed and humiliated Tyrion publicly? Here for example:

Let me just ask you this... what kind of a person would humiliate a dying man -- a dying man who has protected you and treated you well?

[Minsc]

Let me just ask you this... what kind of a person would humiliate a dying man -- a dying man who has protected you and treated you well?

When did Shae do that? I thought she only humiliated Tyrion, you know the man that placed her in danger and repeatedly just used her?

[David Selig]

Let me just ask you this... what kind of a person would humiliate a dying man -- a dying man who has protected you and treated you well?

Look, I think Shae is a pretty terrible person, and that's one of the reasons why. But that's quite different from saying she deserved to die, which is what the topic is about.

[Blueberry Stark]

Let me just ask you this... what kind of a person would humiliate a dying man -- a dying man who has protected you and treated you well?

The type of person with no money, no connections, who is a prostitute by trade, and is being paid by Tyrion's sister to do it, at worst. There is also the possibility tha t Cersei coerced her into testifying, and we all know how dangerous Cersei can be.

[nirolo]

Worse then who?

Worse than Tyrion, of course.

Because Cersei told her to and Shae doesn't owe Tyrion shit thus there isn't reason for her to decline Cersei's wishes.

This is just your speculation. The text doesn't back this up. Cersei only reflects on the fact that Shae asked her for all that Tyrion has promised her. If anything, it seems Shae made up all her accusations by her self in an attempt to get on Cersei's good side.

Any-who, here's the relevant text:

Quote 1:

"Shae, her name was Shae. They had last spoken the night before the dwarf’s trial by combat, after that smiling Dornish snake offered to champion him. Shae had been asking about some jewels Tyrion had given her, and certain promises Cersei might have made, a manse in the city and a knight to marry her. The queen made it plain that the whore would have nothing of her until she told them where Sansa Stark had gone. “You were her maid. Do you expect me to believe that you knew nothing of her plans?” she had said. Shae left in tears."

You can decide for yourself whether Cersei fed the accusations to Share or that she made them up herself.

[nirolo]

Look, I think Shae is a pretty terrible person, and that's one of the reasons why. But that's quite different from saying she deserved to die, which is what the topic is about.

I never said she deserved to die. I only said the world is no worse without her.

In fact, I believe killing her only made Tyrion worse as a person. I hope this is enough for us to reach an understanding.

[Minsc]

Worse than Tyrion, of course.

Hardly, seeing how Tyrion had already done a number of worse acts then just humiliating someone even before his murder of Shae.

[nirolo]

When did Shae do that? I thought she only humiliated Tyrion, you know the man that placed her in danger and repeatedly just used her?

Jeez, I don't know, the part where she made up all these false accusation against Tyrion, like how Tyrion planned on killing the entire royal family, how he killed her husband, and how he raped her?

And I'm not sure I agree with your statement that Tyrion "just used her." I think Tyrion treated Shae better than most would treat a whore. Hell, the little fellow fell in love with her. Some might condemn him for that, But I find it rather admirable that Tyrion is naive enough to fall in love with a whore.

The type of person with no money, no connections, who is a prostitute by trade, and is being paid by Tyrion's sister to do it, at worst. There is also the possibility tha t Cersei coerced her into testifying, and we all know how dangerous Cersei can be.

I have considered the possibility and I don't completely agree with it. The fact that Shae revealed the most intimate part of the relationship between her and Tyrion indicates to me that she is at least partially willing to see Tyrion die.

[nirolo]

Hardly, seeing how Tyrion had already done a number of worse acts then just humiliating someone even before his murder of Shae.

We might have to simply disagree on this.

[MotherAnduin]

If Tyrion loved Shae, he wouldn't have married Sansa.

Saying Tyrion treated Shae is laughable.

[Minsc]

I think Tyrion treated Shae better than most would treat a whore.

All he did for was pay her then take back his payment, and then he forced her to work as a maid for a while. Thus, I highly doubt Shae saw him taking especially good care of her more then in the sense he could pay her more then some other customers.

We might have to simply disagree on this.

Tyrion had people murdered before his trial (Symon, Antler Men), so are you really saying publicly humiliating someone is worse then having someone murdered?

[Handle]

Going into his trial, Tyrion did not look very good with regard to means, motive and opportunity, but it was all circumstantial evidence.

Means: Whether Tyrion actually had the means is left somewhat unclear because his POV never states exactly which vials he took from Pycelle's quarters. However, it is clear from POV that if he did have a vial of Strangler, he didn't use it to kill Joff.

Motive: There were many witnesses that might have convincingly established Tyrion's possible motives for killing Joffrey since Tyrion did not keep his thoughts on the king to himself in public or private.

Opportunity: There was a whole room filled with people (including the judges) who had witnessed Tyrion serving the wine.

It seems that the following individuals committed outright perjury (whereas others may have told half-truths by leaving out mitigating information):

1. Osmund Kettleblack stated that Joff feared Tyrion would kill him and take the throne himself

-there's no POV to dispute this, but given Joff's character, it seems highly unlikely. In any event, this hearsay testimony by itself is irrelevant until Shae testified that Tyrion "confessed" his plot to take the throne

2. Pycelle stated that his supply of the Strangler poison wasn't found in Tyrion's quarters because Tyrion "used it all" to poison Joff.

-Pycelle's circumstantial evidence established credible means by which Tyrion could have killed Joff. It's not specified in POV which vials Tyrion took from Pycelle's chambers after he had him sent to the black cells or whether these vials included the Strangler. It seems possible that:

a. Tyrion never took the Strangler vial and Pycelle committed outright perjury

b. Tyrion took the Strangler vial, it was found in his quarters with the other poisons and Pycelle committed outright perjury

c. Tyrion took the Strangler vial, someone (LF?, Olenna?) arranged to have it stolen and Pycelle believes his own testimony

3. Taena Merryweather stated she saw Tyrion place something in the wine. (from POV, this is outright perjury)

-Taena's direct evidence is damning since she claimed she saw Tyrion seize the opportunity and poison the wine.

4. Shae stated that she overheard Sansa and Tyrion conspiring and that on the morning of the wedding, Tyrion confessed to her a plot to kill Joffrey Cersei, Tywin and Tommen. She further claims that she's not a whore, but was engaged to a squire that Tyrion sent to the front lines to be killed. (from POV, this is outright perjury).

-Shae's testimony that she heard the defendant conspire and confess is probably the most damning testimony (although the judges might wonder why Cersei, et al. did not exact some sort of revenge on Shae for remaining silent and allowing Joff to be poisoned, but whatever)

It's not clear what the penalty is for perjury in Westeros (perhaps the assumption is that the gods will sort the perjurer out). At the very least, I think it's fair to say that Shae and Taena (possibly Pycelle and Kettleblack) deserve whatever punishment that is since they are clearly guilty of perjury.

Shae gave false testimony regarding a confession in a death penalty case which I'd argue is tantamount to murder (in case of conviction and execution) or attempted murder (in case of acquittal or conviction/escape). In a setting as brutal as Westeros, I think the general rule is that when others try to kill you, their lives are forfeit. By some modern moral standards, I think Shae deserved a lengthy prison sentence, but by medieval Westerosi moral standards I think she deserved to die.

[nirolo]

Tyrion had people murdered before his trial (Symon, Antler Men), so are you really saying publicly humiliating someone is worse then having someone murdered?

No. I said kicking a dying man makes Shae a worse person than Tyrion. You can flip my statement all you like, but if you want to continue this discussion, you might have to open another thread.

[Blueberry Stark]

Handle - we don't know if Cersei coerced Shae into testifying against Tyrion; most people don't think so because the Giant of Lannister nickname confession seems extraneous, but we really don't know definitively. Furthermore, even if all of these people who lied about Tyrion were somehow convicted of perjury against Tyrion, he would still be acting against westerosi law by strangling Shae to death. If Shae were sentenced to death by strangulation, and Tyrion was chosen as her executioner, then Tyrion's murder of Shae would legally be justified. That's not what happens.

Edited for clarity.

[Minsc]

No. I said kicking a dying man makes Shae a worse person than Tyrion. You can flip my statement all you like, but if you want to continue this discussion, you might have to open another thread.

Shae's worst act is "kicking of a dying man" aka her humiliating of Tyrion.

Tyrion is a multiple murder before the trial.

Thus, if you think she is a worse person then Tyrion then you must rate his murders as less then her publicly humiliating someone.

[Le Cygne]

She didn't deserve to die, that's just silly. But I wasn't sad when she checked out and will be thrilled when she does in the show.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

She was a whore, of course Tyrion was a fool about her feelings

but, she did loads more she was supposed to do, she public humiliated him and later she was in bed with his father?

He snapped, he was sick of being betrayed everywhere and he really loved her, he felt wounded, of course it's not all her fault, but she knew Tyrion trusted her and he gave all the comfort to her, he was even concerned about her safety, when Stannis was about to sack the city

She could have at least spare him from humiliation

[Minsc]

later she was in bed with his father?

So?

While, I hate Tywin as much as the next person I don't see why Shae should say no to a wealthy customer just because he is the father of her last customer (though that is really screwed up on his part).

[Blueberry Stark]

So?

While, I hate Tywin as much as the next person I don't see why Shae should say no to a wealthy customer just because he is the father of her last customer (though that is really screwed up on his part).

Another situation where we have no idea how much choice Shae had in the situation. Tywin is a powerful man, and while I'm not suggesting that he raped Shae, I think it's likely that she may have feared saying no to him. Or, maybe she went out of her way to seduce him. We just don't know.