Shae

[butterbumps!]

Let me just ask you this... what kind of a person would humiliate a dying man -- a dying man who has protected you and treated you well?

You said this a few times here. In what way do you believe that Tyrion treated Shae well?

I seem to recall that he brought her to KL despite the threat of her death as basically an act of defiance to Tywin. Despite some witty initial banter, he kept her caged once in KL, sometimes telling himself it was for her safety, yet often this was a lie he told himself to keep her secluded out of jealousy. I also remember his giving her a healthy slap when he was stressed out about Stannis. He refused to cut her loose and leave the city, where she'd actually be safe, because he wanted her for himself. In fact, their whole relationship smacked of a strange sense of ownership.

I don't particularly like Shae, and I don't relish that I feel the need to stand up for her here, but seriously, Tyrion's reaction is so wildly disproportionate with her crime, and further, the lie and murder is really just an intensification of their unhealthy relationship rather than a true "betrayal."

What makes Tyrion's reaction, and the vilification of Shae, a bit disturbing for me is how wildly different both fans and Tyrion react to Bronn's "betrayal" just before this than Shae's. When Tyrion wants Bronn to fight for him at trial, Bronn tells him that he's been basically bought by Cersei, and that he likes his wealth and status too much now to risk losing it to fighting in Tyrion's name. Tyrion calls him a rogue, chuckles, and doesn't strangle him. I understand that this is slightly different, but the basic parallels are there: both parties are bought off by Cersei to turn against Tyrion, and in the case of Shae it's implied that there was significant pressure (i.e. threats) to give a full testimony like this. Yet, Bronn's refusal to compromise his newfound winnings is laughed about, while Shae is said to "deserve" her strangling.

[Cas Stark]

Shae was a bad person, with no known redeeming qualities.

That does not excuse Tyrion's murder of her in a fit of self pity that the whore with no compassion even for a rape victim who he deluded himself into believing loved him back, in fact, was just a whore, doing it all for the money. She did not deserve to die for his stupidity and self delusion.

[Handle]

he would still be acting against westerosi law by strangling Shae to death.

I agree. By no stretch of the imagination can the circumstances of her death be considered "legal" or "justice." I was trying to address whether Shae "deserved to die" in general according to Westerosi morality, not whether she deserved the particular death she received (strangulation without trial).

Shae may have been coerced, but I think that would only be a mitigating factor in "modern" justice. Also, the sense I got from the subsequent Cersei POV was that Shae''s testimony had been bought with the promise getting to keep the gifts Tyrion had given her, but I might be remembering that incorrectly.

[Minsc]

Another situation where we have no idea how much choice Shae had in the situation. Tywin is a powerful man, and while I'm not suggesting that he raped Shae, I think it's likely that she may have feared saying no to him. Or, maybe she went out of her way to seduce him. We just don't know.

I don't see why it matters if she seduced him or just went willing with him.

[Blueberry Stark]

You said this a few times here. In what way do you believe that Tyrion treated Shae well?

I seem to recall that he brought her to KL despite the threat of her death as basically an act of defiance to Tywin. Despite some witty initial banter, he kept her caged once in KL, sometimes telling himself it was for her safety, yet often this was a lie he told himself to keep her secluded out of jealousy. I also remember his giving her a healthy slap when he was stressed out about Stannis. He refused to cut her loose and leave the city, where she'd actually be safe, because he wanted her for himself. In fact, their whole relationship smacked of a strange sense of ownership.

I don't particularly like Shae, and I don't relish that I feel the need to stand up for her here, but seriously, Tyrion's reaction is so wildly disproportionate with her crime, and further, the lie and murder is really just an intensification of their unhealthy relationship rather than a true "betrayal."

What makes Tyrion's reaction, and the vilification of Shae, a bit disturbing for me is how wildly different both fans and Tyrion react to Bronn's "betrayal" just before this than Shae's. When Tyrion wants Bronn to fight for him at trial, Bronn tells him that he's been basically bought by Cersei, and that he likes his wealth and status too much now to risk losing it to fighting in Tyrion's name. Tyrion calls him a rogue, chuckles, and doesn't strangle him. I understand that this is slightly different, but the basic parallels are there: both parties are bought off by Cersei to turn against Tyrion, and in the case of Shae it's implied that there was significant pressure (i.e. threats) to give a full testimony like this. Yet, Bronn's refusal to compromise his newfound winnings is laughed about, while Shae is said to "deserve" her strangling.

The Bronn /Shae comparison is a valid point. It's often pointed out that Shae's a whore when people are justifying Tyrion's actions, which is pretty funny. First of all, is killing a whore acceptable? Secondly, doesn't that make it more understandable that Shae would betray Tyrion for safety and financial gain since she wasn't in love with him - remember, she was a prostitute. He was supposed to be paying her. Plus, he stopped paying her IIRC.

[Blueberry Stark]

I don't see why it matters if she seduced him or just went willing with him.

It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. She was a prostitute, so sleeping with men for money was what she did. My point is that if anyone wants to argue that she is wrong for sleeping with Tywin, Tyrion's "greatest enemy" as someone upthread defined him, then he or she has no definitive proof that sleeping with Tywin was actually a choice on Shae's part. It may be gross, but that, again, is more on Tywin than Shae.

[butterbumps!]

The Bronn /Shae comparison is a valid point. It's often pointed out that Shae's a whore when people are justifying Tyrion's actions, which is pretty funny. First of all, is killing a whore acceptable? Secondly, doesn't that make it more understandable that Shae would betray Tyrion for safety and financial gain since she wasn't in love with him - remember, she was a prostitute. He was supposed to be paying her. Plus, he stopped paying her IIRC.

Well, the difference between the way these two "betray" Tyrion is that in Bronn's case, the pressure is placed on him to not act. His "betrayal" is simply an absence of defense. In Shae's case, the same sort of pressure was placed on her to act, and I think it's easier for Tyrion and probably us as well to look at the active "betrayal" less positively than we would a mere omission.

I would also point out though that Varys was privy to all of Tyrion and Shae's conversations for the most part-- he'd know of the "Giant of Lannister" thing, and other private matters. Plus, we know that Varys and Shae had a bit of a relationship-- that is, Shae and Varys would often exchange words while waiting for Tyrion, and Varys was their go between. I sincerely doubt that Shae came up with this testimony all by herself. That is, I think there was significant coaching by Varys. Keep in mind, Varys wants Tyrion to be condemned (he's the one who gave the fullest testimony), because he's been planning to spirit Tyrion away to Aegon.

[Alhazred]

Shae stated that she overheard Sansa and Tyrion conspiring [...]

No. She never said she overheard them conspiring. She merely said that [she believes] they conspired.

She does say she overheard some things. What, precisely, is unclear.

and that on the morning of the wedding, Tyrion confessed to her a plot to kill Joffrey Cersei, Tywin and Tommen.

No. She never said Tyrion confessed this to her.

She further claims that she's not a whore, [...]

No. She never said this. She merely said she never MEANT to be a whore. Given that she fled her father in order to avoid being his whore, it is perfectly possible she told the truth.

but was engaged to a squire

For all we know, this is true. He may have promised to marry her. He (probably) did not mean to keep his promise, but that is neither here nor there are far as Shae's hopes and dreams are concerned.

that Tyrion sent to the front lines to be killed.

In aGoT we can see that Shae was lying awake in the tent when Bronn and Tyrion had a conversation behind the tent where words were spoken about Shae's man being Tyrion's "enemy" and something was said about somebody being sent to the vanguard. If Shae misheard the conversation ...

(from POV, this is outright perjury).

It is possible that Shae believes everything she said. Especially after interrogation by Cersei. And especially if her memory for details is as poor as yours.

[James Arryn]

Butter bumps-

Re: Shae and Bronn, it's not "slightly" different, though. I agree about Shae not deserving death, and find that thinking a little creepy, but I also think you are really stretching for a point.

Bronn opts to not actively support Tyrion. Shae opts a for actively supporting Tyrion's enemy and contributing to his death.

If Shae had refused to testify on Tyrion's behalf, that would be equivalent. If Bronn had decided to fight against Tyrion's champion and used inside information gained from Tyrion to beat said champion, again, similar.

But as is there's a huge difference, IMO.

Edit: you sort of addressed this in later post, but I feel you are seriously downplaying significance of difference.

[butterbumps!]

Butter bumps-

Re: Shae and Bronn, it's not "slightly" different, though. I agree about Shae not deserving death, and find that thinking a little creepy, but I also think you are really stretching for a point.

Bronn opts to not actively support Tyrion. Shae opts a for actively supporting Tyrion's enemy and contributing to his death.

If Shae had refused to testify on Tyrion's behalf, that would be equivalent. If Bronn had decided to fight against Tyrion's champion and used inside information gained from Tyrion to beat said champion, again, similar.

But as is there's a huge difference, IMO.

That difference is what I just specified, though:

Well, the difference between the way these two "betray" Tyrion is that in Bronn's case, the pressure is placed on him to not act. His "betrayal" is simply an absence of defense. In Shae's case, the same sort of pressure was placed on her to act, and I think it's easier for Tyrion and probably us as well to look at the active "betrayal" less positively than we would a mere omission.

What's missing in your analogue is the fact that Shae actually was pressured to actively side against Tyrion, whereas Bronn's incentives were simply to omit a defense. This is a critical point. Shae did not have the choice to merely omit testimony; actively confessing was what Cersei needed from her, whereas Cersei needed Bronn to simply stay out of it. By controlling for the pressure variable, these two "betrayals" boil down to pretty much the same thing in essence.

Besides, let's not forget that Varys' testimony was basically the equivalent of ongoing hidden camera footage-- he had full transcripts of a million conversations he overheard. Had Shae refused (and likely, been put to death), some of her embarrassing testimony would have in all likelihood come from Varys if that's what Cersei wished.

[Buckwheat]

And I'm not sure I agree with your statement that Tyrion "just used her." I think Tyrion treated Shae better than most would treat a whore. Hell, the little fellow fell in love with her. Some might condemn him for that, But I find it rather admirable that Tyrion is naive enough to fall in love with a whore.

I think nobody is condemning him for that, but you are right to say it is naive. And he did, in fact, "just use her". Which was perfectly fine as was dictated by their contract. She owed him nothing more and her owed her nothing more than not killing her.

She could have at least spare him from humiliation

She could, but she decided not to. People make fun of each other publically every day. This is no excuse for murder.

What makes Tyrion's reaction, and the vilification of Shae, a bit disturbing for me is how wildly different both fans and Tyrion react to Bronn's "betrayal" just before this than Shae's. When Tyrion wants Bronn to fight for him at trial, Bronn tells him that he's been basically bought by Cersei, and that he likes his wealth and status too much now to risk losing it to fighting in Tyrion's name. Tyrion calls him a rogue, chuckles, and doesn't strangle him. I understand that this is slightly different, but the basic parallels are there: both parties are bought off by Cersei to turn against Tyrion, and in the case of Shae it's implied that there was significant pressure (i.e. threats) to give a full testimony like this. Yet, Bronn's refusal to compromise his newfound winnings is laughed about, while Shae is said to "deserve" her strangling.

I miss the Like button here.

[MotherAnduin]

because he's been planning to spirit Tyrion away to Aegon.

How do we know this? Didn't Jaime force Varys? Illyrio has hundreds of ships so Varys getting a ship on a short notice isn't very telling.

[SeanF]

Shae was a foul person (consider her treatment of Lollys).

But, that doesn't justify Tyrion's murder of her. In no sense did it amount to self-defence.

And, I think it's probable that she was threatened into perjuring herself.

[Jon Flowers]

It's very easy on the surface, to condemn Shae for her decision to testify against Tyrion. However, it should be considered that Lord Tywin, the orchestrator of the trial, had planned for Tyrion to take the Black when found guilty and may well have made this known to Shae as a part of his efforts to coerce her into testifying. The more I consider this possibility, the more likely I find it. Additionally, I recently ran across the scene where the Blue Bard, having refused to testify against Queen Margaery, is brutally and sadistically tortured by Qyburn at Cersei's direction. This scene is a fine illustration of how little ability Shae and people like her (smallfolk and the like) would have had to thwart the will of men and women in positions of great power and authority. This is not to say that I find Shae anything less than an unprincipled user, who may well have gone along with Tywin's ploy for personal gain alone. I just don't see how she could have refused to testify short of committing a swift suicide. She was likely a terrible person, but nonetheless was in a situation in which it was likely impossible to behave in a principled fashion without sacrificing her life. Sadly for her, her life was taken from her regardless. So no, I don't think she deserved to be murdered, particularly as cruelly as was done to her by Tyrion. All in all, it was a very sad situation.

[Jon Flowers]

And by the way, I find it profoundly disturbing that anyone would consider Shae's humiliation of Tyrion to justify his murder of her. The two "crimes" are on such wildly different planes that they hardly deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence with one another, let alone weighed against one another morally. This is without a doubt, Tyrion's foulest act in the series to date.

[aceluby]

The difference between Bronn and Shae is that Bronn has ALWAYS said they were only friends as long as the money was there. He told Tyrion this at every step, so it's not a 'betrayal' when he's paid more by his enemy and doesn't defend Tyrion. Tyrion knew it would happen eventually as did Bronn, this is how his character has always been defined.

Shae basically told Tyrion she loved him, wanted to run away with him, and go live in the Free Cities together, money be damned. She then turned on him, fucked his father, made fun of him in front of the entire court indicating she was 'forced' to call him things she willingly called him, and lied about the events she supposedly was witness to, which would have eventually lead to Tyrion's death.

Only one of these actions is a betrayal, the other is exactly what was expected which is why Tyrion laughs about it. Now in Westeros does someone who conspires and lies to get you killed deserve to die at your own hand? Seems like it's ok for some, but not for others based on this conversation.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Something just popped in my mind

what if Shae was trying to seduce Tywin to free Tyrion? She could have been using sex to convince him

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

The difference between Bronn and Shae is that Bronn has ALWAYS said they were only friends as long as the money was there. He told Tyrion this at every step, so it's not a 'betrayal' when he's paid more by his enemy and doesn't defend Tyrion. Tyrion knew it would happen eventually as did Bronn, this is how his character has always been defined.

Shae basically told Tyrion she loved him, wanted to run away with him, and go live in the Free Cities together, money be damned. She then turned on him, fucked his father, made fun of him in front of the entire court indicating she was 'forced' to call him things she willingly called him, and lied about the events she supposedly was witness to, which would have eventually lead to Tyrion's death.

Only one of these actions is a betrayal, the other is exactly what was expected which is why Tyrion laughs about it. Now in Westeros does someone who conspires and lies to get you killed deserve to die at your own hand? Seems like it's ok for some, but not for others based on this conversation.

This is only in the show

Book Shae doesn't love him

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

Shae was a bad person, with no known redeeming qualities.

That does not excuse Tyrion's murder of her in a fit of self pity that the whore with no compassion even for a rape victim who he deluded himself into believing loved him back, in fact, was just a whore, doing it all for the money. She did not deserve to die for his stupidity and self delusion.

She was a full party to Tyrion's delusions and fed them. She knew what she was doing, and what benefits it would give her. She is 100% guilty.

[Minsc]

The difference between Bronn and Shae is that Bronn has ALWAYS said they were only friends as long as the money was there. He told Tyrion this at every step, so it's not a 'betrayal' when he's paid more by his enemy and doesn't defend Tyrion. Tyrion knew it would happen eventually as did Bronn, this is how his character has always been defined.

Shae basically told Tyrion she loved him, wanted to run away with him, and go live in the Free Cities together, money be damned. She then turned on him, fucked his father, made fun of him in front of the entire court indicating she was 'forced' to call him things she willingly called him, and lied about the events she supposedly was witness to, which would have eventually lead to Tyrion's death.

Only one of these actions is a betrayal, the other is exactly what was expected which is why Tyrion laughs about it. Now in Westeros does someone who conspires and lies to get you killed deserve to die at your own hand? Seems like it's ok for some, but not for others based on this conversation.

Shae never asked Tyrion to run away to the Free Cities in the books, instead she was always pretty open with how she was a whore and only cared about his wealth.