Show us that Aegon VI is really Aegon

[The guy from the Vale]

I tend to think a real Aegon would make Dany a lot more interesting, and knowing GRRM her righteous hero arc has to break at some point.

Yeah, but why do we need to introduce Aegon for that? We already have Jon Snow :P

[Daphnaerys Seaworth]

I kinda believe Aegon is real.

GRRM making him look obviously fake to us is kind of a red herring maybe.

He is probably real but I believe he's not THE SHIT!(If you know what I mean.)

He is a Targ but won't turn out as badass and great as we have possibly imagined a hidden Aegon would be.

[sheofseidhr]

Yeah, but why do we need to introduce Aegon for that? We already have Jon Snow :P

Well if Jon is indeed a Targ he'd still be a bastard if Rhaegar didn't marry Lyanna as some theories state. And plus, I think a real Aegon makes for a much sweeter Dance 2.0.

[The guy from the Vale]

Well if Jon is indeed a Targ he'd still be a bastard if Rhaegar didn't marry Lyanna as some theories state. And plus, I think a real Aegon makes for a much sweeter Dance 2.0.

Pretty sure R&L married. Otherwise, what are the KG doing at the ToJ?

As for a sweeter Dance, I'd still factor the perceptions into that. I do think Young Griff is a fake, but most Westerosi won't.

[Ghost's Shadow]

And plus, I think a real Aegon makes for a much sweeter Dance 2.0.

It doesn't matter if he's real or not. Aegon will think he's real, and the people behind him might, so going up against him makes Dany look bad. Dany's been warned against him, but the people weren't witness to that.

[sheofseidhr]

Pretty sure R&L married. Otherwise, what are the KG doing at the ToJ?

As for a sweeter Dance, I'd still factor the perceptions into that. I do think Young Griff is a fake, but most Westerosi won't.

Well tbh, I could not think of an acceptable reason, so it could be that what you say is true.

It doesn't matter if he's real or not. Aegon will think he's real, and the people behind him might, so going up against him makes Dany look bad. Dany's been warned against him, but the people weren't witness to that.

Well there is that, I agree with what you said. But as for my view regarding Aegon, I won't be quick to decide if his legitimacy won't matter at all. A lot of things can still happen and for all we know it might matter at some point, even if it's only to himself. I know it's far-fetched but what would he think if he discovers he isn't who he's supposed to be, and that he's in the middle of this war and realizes it doesn't even have anything to do with him. Or maybe the doubts that will be raised to him could affect his leadership. As far as I can tell Aegon has been showing quite a lot of backbone but he's still pretty much gullible and quite dependent of the people around him and in Westeros it could very different for him with all these question being thrown in his way. Like I said, a lot of things could happen and this is just all speculation in my part. And indeed your statement is one to consider. :cheers:

[Bael's Bastard]

The three KG at the ToJ never made any attempt to guard their king or his heirs before or after the Battle of the Trident, and the notion that their motivation for staying at the ToJ suddenly changed to guarding a king after the sack of King's Landing has no proof.

Hightower, Dayne, and Whent remained at the ToJ when Rhaegar went north and the king and his heirs were all still alive.

They remained at the ToJ when Jonothor Darry and Barristan Selmy were sent to rally the remnant of Connington's men after the Battle of the Bells.

They remained at the ToJ when Lewyn Martell, Darry, and Selmy went to fight at the Trident, Jaime Lannister alone being left in King's Landing guarding Aerys and his heirs.

After prince Rhaegar was killed, the two KG Darry and Martell were killed, and the KG Selmy was wounded, and Jaime Lannister alone of all the KG protected Aerys and his heir Aegon with Robert's army marching on King's Landing, the three KG Hightower, Dayne, and Whent remained at the ToJ.

They made no attempt to go guard their king, or his heir. However you slice it ,they either made Rhaegar's bastard a priority over their king and over Rhaegar's two legitimate children (including his heir), or they made Rhaegar's third legitimate child a priority over their king and Rhaegar's older legitimate children (including his heir).

A secret marriage doesn't change that Rhaegar's most recent and least important child politicially (legitimate or not) was made a priority over the king and all of his legitimate heirs while they were all still alive, and they continued to guard him to their deaths no matter how circumstances changed elsewhere.

It may turn out that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married before they died, but there is as of yet no proof, Ned's dream included.

[RoamingRonin]

The Kingsguard do what's commanded of them even if that means protecting mistresses and bastards. Barristan reflects on this in one of his chapters in aDwD. So, pending R+L=J, Jon does not have to be legit nor does Lyanna have to be Rhaegar's wife in order to receive KG protection.

[Ghost's Shadow]

These 'heirs', Rhaegar's other two children you speak of were already long dead before Ned arrived at the ToJ, which would make, if legitimate, Jon the King, as the Kingsguard are basically admitting by saying they will not flee from that location. Fleeing is what you do when you're trying to get out of your vows, and they wouldn't.

If Jon was not legitimate, there's no reason for a man who's as strict to the book as LC Hightower was to remain there, as he would at least have said one of them three should have gone to the 'next King'. Dayne and Whent might have stayed after Rhaegar's death to do as he commanded them (protect the mistress and the bastard), but Hightower would have had no reason to say there but to do his job by protecting the heir.

[Ygrain]

We are shown repeatedly throughout the books that it is not required of all the KG at all times to be with the king and that they can be assigned other tasks, as long as there is at least one KG with the king. So, up till the point when Jaime offs Aerys, the ToJ trio is perfectly legitimately carrying out other orders, and they are doing so until they receive the news. Then, however, whatever their orders might have been, their first duty to protect the king is not being carried out by anyone, as Viserys has no KG with him and they know it. By staying at ToJ, they are in dereliction of their duty and breaking their vows - unless Viserys is not king, in which case they are not breaking any vows, exactly as they claim.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Since the TOJ has been brought up, I think it's fair to also note that the Tower was located in a very isolated place, which means that the news of the Trident and the Sack would've probably reached the 3 KG there with a big delay. So, they may have learned about the deaths of Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon very shortly before Ned and his company arrived.

[Facebookless Man]

Even so, protecting your dead king's dying mistress from her own brother doesn't sound like the best use of a KG's time.

[Petyr Patter]

Even so, protecting your dead king's dying mistress from her own brother doesn't sound like the best use of a KG's time.

Unless they were ordered to. At that point in the story, I think the KG had decided they weren't going to take pardons, but realized the Targaryen dynasty was over. So, they followed their prince's last orders and hoped for a good death in battle as befits a member of the King's Guard.

[Ygrain]

Even so, protecting your dead king's dying mistress from her own brother doesn't sound like the best use of a KG's time.

Not so much from the brother but from his BF who was playing bosom-budies with the guys who murdered Rhaegar's children and wife. Not the safest person around another child of Rhaegar's, especially as he is honour-bound to report the existence of the said child to Robert.

Unless they were ordered to. At that point in the story, I think the KG had decided they weren't going to take pardons, but realized the Targaryen dynasty was over. So, they followed their prince's last orders and hoped for a good death in battle as befits a member of the King's Guard.

Only, there is no deathwish in the scene, only determination - and referring to the vows as the reason they are staying, while repeatedly emphasizing their status as Kingsguard.

It doesn't really matter if the Targaryens' power was over or not, they swore a vow, and a vow doesn't ask if fulfilling it is possible, convenient, futile, whatever - either you are true to it, or you are not, there is no third option. If, under your scenario, the KG decided that it's not worth it, they would still be aware that they were breaking the vows by not going to Viserys; yet, they claim the contrary, while there is no legit reason for them to stay and not be oathbreakers if Viserys is the next in the succession line.

[Bael's Bastard]

These 'heirs', Rhaegar's other two children you speak of were already long dead before Ned arrived at the ToJ, which would make, if legitimate, Jon the King, as the Kingsguard are basically admitting by saying they will not flee from that location. Fleeing is what you do when you're trying to get out of your vows, and they wouldn't.

If Jon was not legitimate, there's no reason for a man who's as strict to the book as LC Hightower was to remain there, as he would at least have said one of them three should have gone to the 'next King'. Dayne and Whent might have stayed after Rhaegar's death to do as he commanded them (protect the mistress and the bastard), but Hightower would have had no reason to say there but to do his job by protecting the heir.

You are skipping to the final confrontation between Ned and his companions and the three KG, but Hightower, Dayne, and Whent were guarding the Tower of Joy since before the Battle of the Trident, when their king Aerys and all his heirs were still alive.

Even if Jon was legitimate, if he was born while Rhaegar was still alive he was at best Aerys' third heir, yet half the Kingsguard including the Lord Commander, Rhaegar's best friend, and the man that may have helped Rhaegar set up the Tourney at Harrenhal, were all commanded to guard his least politically significant child and son at the Tower of Joy. Half the KG, and arguably the best of the bunch. Not fighting the king's wars. Not protecting the king. Not fighting along side the prince. Not protecting the prince's firstborn son. And that was from the get go.

There is no proof in Ned's dream or elsewhere that these three men went to or remained at the Tower of Joy because they thought they were guarding the king. They made no attempt from the time they were stationed at the Tower of Joy to leave to take part in any of the major battles of their king, or to protect their king, their prince, or their prince's first son while they were still alive.

The other half of the Kingsguard except Jaime Lannister was killed (Jonothor Darry, Lewyn Martell) or wounded (Barristan Selmy) at the Battle of the Trident, and Jaime alone remained at King's Landing guarding their king Aerys and his heir Aegon, and yet they still made no attempt to relocate to King's Landing to defend the king and his next heir from the coming rebel military, not one of them.

A secret marriage doesn't solve the problems that the little information we have present.

[Ygrain]

You are skipping to the final confrontation between Ned and his companions and the three KG, but Hightower, Dayne, and Whent were guarding the Tower of Joy since before the Battle of the Trident, when their king Aerys and all his heirs were still alive.

Even if Jon was legitimate, if he was born while Rhaegar was still alive he was at best Aerys' third heir, yet half the Kingsguard including the Lord Commander, Rhaegar's best friend, and the man that may have helped Rhaegar set up the Tourney at Harrenhal, were all commanded to guard his least politically significant child and son at the Tower of Joy. Half the KG, and arguably the best of the bunch. Not fighting the king's wars. Not protecting the king. Not fighting along side the prince. Not protecting the prince's firstborn son. And that was from the get go.

GRRM said that the KG would obey Rhaegar's orders. He doesn't go into any specifics, though, like orders clashing with their primary duty etc.

There is no proof in Ned's dream or elsewhere that these three men went to or remained at the Tower of Joy because they thought they were guarding the king. They made no attempt from the time they were stationed at the Tower of Joy to leave to take part in any of the major battles of their king, or to protect their king, their prince, or their prince's first son while they were still alive.

We are Kingsguard... we swore a vow. To which part of their vow might they be referring, if they repeat that they are Kingsguard?

The other half of the Kingsguard except Jaime Lannister was killed (Jonothor Darry, Lewyn Martell) or wounded (Barristan Selmy) at the Battle of the Trident, and Jaime alone remained at King's Landing guarding their king Aerys and his heir Aegon, and yet they still made no attempt to relocate to King's Landing to defend the king and his next heir from the coming rebel military, not one of them.

A secret marriage doesn't solve the problems that the little information we have present.

Again as per GRRM, do KG do not make their own orders. It is not their call to reallocate themselves if they were ordered to stay somewhere (not to mention that with the time delay necessary for the information to reach them, they probably had no idea that Jaime was in KL all alone until the Sack happened).

Just to make sure we're clear here: the KG were ordered by Rhaegar to stay and guard Lyanna, and there were apparently no superseding orders from Aerys, so they stayed, as their first duty was covered by the remaining KG. It is hardly plausible that Rhaegar kept them updated on the disposition of those remaining four KG, though, so they had no idea who went to the Trident and who stayed behind and learned only ex post, together with the death of Aerys and Aegon, Jaime's betrayal and Viserys' flight. Only now their stay at ToJ becomes questionable - they know who the next in the linesupposedly is, they know there are no other KG left, yet they make no attempt to go to Viserys, or at least split their numbers to cover both their orders and their duty. And yes, a secret marriage does solve this, as Viserys is not the next in the succession line and they have no obligation to go to him.

[Robin the Mighty]

I think he is as fake as they come but for argument sake, he's real because:

1. JC says so

2. Varys said so and he has no reason to lie to a dying man

3. Aegon is hiding his Targ identity posing as YG. This in essence makes him a "secret Targ". As we all know secret Targs are immune to disease and the fact the Aegon did not contract Greyscale in The Sorrows proves he is a Targaryen.

How are targs immune to diseases?

The lot of them died during the spring and also Dany has gotten sick from the disease-full water she drank