S+B=M: Mel - The Red Star Bleeding / Melony Seastar (part 2 has been added on pg.9)

[yolkboy]

So, rubies --> Fire and Blood --> House Targaryen --> dragons, both literal and figurative. Maybe it's just a phrase GRRM likes to use, but there is a lot of circumstantial evidence here already wrt to Mel being the daughter of Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar.

Hey JS, this is so strange, because it's what i'm looking at right now with the ruby collation. (did you get it in your email?)

Fire & Blood keeps coming up with Mel indicative rubies. It happens too many times to be a coincidence, like the ones you've pointed out. I was literally looking and writing about it from more or less the same angle when i saw this, there seems to be a 'pattern' (of sorts). There's a few things rubies stand for, but I'm sure they're being used to reinforce Mel and House Targ together. Mel wears her collar "tighter than a maesters chain"(never takes it off), so in some cases, rubies are synonymous with her. And we get ruby - fire and or blood come up in various ways, over and over. I think this s+b=m is bigger and deeper into the text than I'd imagined, and that must mean it's very important.

Cheers, very nice post, I definitely believe it's on purpose. Infact your post is giving some ideas for something else I'm looking at, in the way youve laid out the most relevant examples.

ps the linking of those last two quotes is super smart.

---

Oh yeah peoples who liked this thread, the next installment is coming very soon and regards the way which I think Mel will bleed and the AA rebirth sequence. I will post in it's own thread and put it in my sig. This will be part of a series of around 7-8 similarly indepth pieces building on s+b=m, and focusing on the AA prophesies, Nissa Nissa, Lightbringer etc.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Hey yolkboy, Tyrion reads three books on the Stinky Steward. Th "most engrossing" is about a young slave girl in a Lysene pillow house. It apparently begins with her account of how she and her sister were taken by slavers. I reread this chapter and your theory as well as some of the challenges to it came to mind...

[Dany Girl]

I usually hate "secret Targ" theories because they're usually 99% speculation with very little textual evidence to back them, but I'm totally sold on this one! It makes me even more excited for Mel to meet Dany if Mel finds out who her parents are!

Very well researched and developed theory that has very little logical holes. Great job!

[yolkboy]

Hey yolkboy, Tyrion reads three books on the Stinky Steward. Th "most engrossing" is about a young slave girl in a Lysene pillow house. It apparently begins with her account of how she and her sister were taken by slavers. I reread this chapter and your theory as well as some of the challenges to it came to mind...

Oh my. I will have to take a look at this as soon as I get around to it. That could be a hint to the 'missing link' here - and what I alluded to in the Op. LM I really appreciate you coming and sharing that, it's one i missed. I bet there's many more, I have more evidence sitting on my desktop than I know how to present. Excellent work LM.

I usually hate "secret Targ" theories because they're usually 99% speculation with very little textual evidence to back them, but I'm totally sold on this one! It makes me even more excited for Mel to meet Dany if Mel finds out who her parents are!

Very well researched and developed theory that has very little logical holes. Great job!

Whoa, glad to have you onboard.

Update on some progress ;

I have part 2 of this theory pretty much ready, and i'll drop it at the weekend. It's as in depth as this piece.

I've also (i think) cracked the ruby code. I'll post that v.soon, and i'm excited at what I found, with regards to s+b=m, in amongst the 88 rubies.

[Dany Girl]

Whoa, glad to have you onboard.

Update on some progress ;

I have part 2 of this theory pretty much ready, and i'll drop it at the weekend. It's as in depth as this piece.

I've also (i think) cracked the ruby code. I'll post that v.soon, and i'm excited at what I found, with regards to s+b=m, in amongst the 88 rubies.

isn't there something about Rhaegar's Rubies? Is it wrapped into your theory at all?

[yolkboy]

isn't there something about Rhaegar's Rubies? Is it wrapped into your theory at all?

There's a very big connection yes, Rhaegar, specifically what happened at the Trident, is obviously representative of House Targaryen as a whole - so that moment would need to correlate to Mel somehow, if we want to make a Mel-House Targaryen link. And it seems to, in the context of this code ive got together. But also, all rubies are covered. Posting tommorrow night, 88 ruby quotes coming up (eek), to show the pattern Ive found, in support of s+b=m.

[Dany Girl]

There's a very big connection yes, Rhaegar, specifically what happened at the Trident, is obviously representative of House Targaryen as a whole - so that moment would need to correlate to Mel somehow, if we want to make a Mel-House Targaryen link. And it seems to, in the context of this code ive got together. But also, all rubies are covered. Posting tommorrow night, 88 ruby quotes coming up (eek), to show the pattern Ive found, in support of s+b=m.

I'm very excited to see it! Great job again!

[Dr. Pepper]

<snip>

I think you're reaching a bit with this as there are very few Dothraki words that GRRM actually created. David Peterson used those few words and other linguistic clues and created a language with hundreds of words. GRRM isn't a linguist, so without an SSM, I find it very hard to believe that he spent significant time with Peterson to explain how he wanted the language to work. Even the press releases and website devoted to the Dothraki language fail to include any active participation by GRRM in creating the full language. In fact, Peterson does not at all mention using any source other than the text in creating the language. There are a lot of linguistic clues within the text, even if there isn't a lot of fantasy vocabulary.

On initial perusal of the dictionary, Peterson uses a fairly basic conjugation pattern. We have qiya, which is bleeding. From there, it's easy to see how he went about forming the present infinitive (qiyalat) and used that as inspiration for the root of the word blood (qoy). Blood and fire and even redheads are also linked within the text, so linking them in a made up language makes perfect sense. (as an aside, I wonder why redhead isn't included in the dictionary, and why red {virzeth} and hair {noreth} are completely unrelated to qoy, yet this is something included in the press release). Linguistic clues in the story helped him determine that GRRM was purposely linking stuff like rubies and fire, blood and fire, blood and prophecy, blood and omens, blood and life, blood and death, etc along with several other symbolic links. As a quick example, Dothraki bodyguards are called bloodriders, riders who swear an oath. An oath of blood, as tradition states the blood rider lives only long enough to avenge a khal, and then die. Oaths and blood are also linked elsewhere (Illyrio's "some oaths are writ in blood").

I think my point is that David Peterson was merely using all of the text to create these fake languages. I think it would work better for this theory (or any theory for that matter) to look at the language in the books and see how GRRM is intentionally linking things. It is interesting to see this dictionary as I think Peterson is probably a close reader and obviously understands the nuances of language in order to create a language. But in the end, he used the entire text to create Dothraki and while interesting to investigate, I don't think it adds anything to the theory. I think parsing through the symbolic language links in the text is what adds to it.

[yolkboy]

snip

yeah, i didnt realise this, but some of those words arent canon. I was being lazy and going off the wiki, which presented those words, as you can see if you link it, as book canon. I didnt have the time to go through the book looking for every dothraki word - and i didnt realise so few were used - so I wiki'd, which is my fault. You're right and ive been meaning to amend that post.

I have no idea what's up with that wiki & the red head inclusion, but i think you can see why i thought there was something amiss, when i thought it was book canon. The inclusion of the Bloodraven stuff, Shierak and redhead, with no connections to anyone else that I could tell seems curious. Alas, non canon.

What press release are you talking about? A dothraki language one?

[Dr. Pepper]

yeah, i didnt realise this, but some of those words arent canon. I was being lazy and going off the wiki, which presented those words, as you can see if you link it, as book canon. I didnt have the time to go through every the book looking for every dothraki word - and i didnt realise so few were used - so I wiki'd, which is my fault. You're right and ive been meaning to amend that post.

I have no idea what's up with that wiki & the red head inclusion, but i think you can see why i thought there was something amiss, when i thought it was book canon. The inclusion of the Bloodraven stuff, Shierak and redhead, with no connections to anyone else that I could tell seems curious. Alas, non canon.

What press release are you talking about? A dothraki language one?

It's the press release on the official Dothraki language site and also linked from this site's wiki.

To be fair, in the book, connections are made between Bloodraven, Shierak and redheads. The connections might not be explicit or side by side, but they are there. Shierak is star, while Shiera is linked with stars. Bloodraven is of House Targ, blood and fire, redheads are calling by the wildlings 'kissed by fire'. It is kind of fun looking at Peterson's dictionary, picking a word, finding all of the related words and seeing if they are also related in the text. It's clear that he was a very close reader.

[First of My Name]

Another great theory, yolkboy. This fits surprisingly well.

[yolkboy]

Part 2 is very nearly done, for now I'll write about sigils.

Sigils and s+b=m

One part of the Shiera description that I initially couldn't fit in with Mel was that she liked to "melt men's hearts". Of course Mel is seductive, like Shiera, but I wondered if there was a different kind of clue going on. So I thought about Mel's sigil - the fiery heart. It might be attributed to R'hllor, but for all intents and purposes - it's Mels sigil. We see the black stag fading and being swallowed inside it, as Mel's relationship with Stannis weakens him after they made shadowbabies together. The design is not seen anywhere else, even in Volantis, where the Red God reigns supreme. Mel brings the fiery heart to Westeros, and it's attributable to her foremost, and even when it's adopted by others, it signifies Mel just as much as it does R'hllor.

What's even more interesting, with the regards to the sigil and the Shiera melting mens hearts, is that on numerous occasions, we see the sigil actually being worn over men's hearts.

That, and the guards without; queen’s men leaning on tall spears, with the badge of the fiery heart sewn over their own

Davos watched as his son Devan pulled a long padded glove over the king’s right hand. The boy wore a cream-colored doublet with a fiery heart sewn on the breast. Bryen Farring was similarly garbed

The king’s eyes were blue bruises, sunk deep in a hollow face. He wore grey plate, a fur-trimmed cloak of cloth-of-gold flowing from his broad shoulders. His breastplate had a flaming heart inlaid above his own.

So if the line about Shiera was a clue, regarding Mel, this could be the answer. Figuratively melting fiery hearts of men. Of course, she also burns some men alive, and I presume the victims hearts' were fairly 'melted' too.

If we can think of the fiery heart as Mel's sigil, there's something else interesting. Every sigil containing fire belongs to someone either House Targaryen, or descendant.

Targaryen - Fire (or dragon/fire made flesh)

Blackfyre - Fire (ditto)

Blooodraven = Fire
Bittersteel = Fire
Rhaego = Fire (in HotU vision)

Stannis = Fire

So, The Dornishman's Wife did a check of the heraldry lists, to see if the there were exceptions. It's difficult to know exactly whats canon but she tried to find any sigils with fire, and this is what she came up with...

Not even House Prester of Feastfires includes fire. The only exceptions are usually extremely minor houses where the appearance of fire is doubtful and/or the source only semi-canon anyways:

• House Hightower, who have their lighted lighthouse as sigil (which is presumably done with a fire)
• the personal arms of Lord Rossart (the alchemist) who chose a torch lit with wildfire, if you want to call that fire (it's green after all)
• Bronn's sigil is a chain, also lit by wildfire
• House Banefort with "A hooded man, black on grey, within a fiery tressure", where fiery probably just refers to the colour (after all, a tressure doesn't actually depict anything).
• The Citadel also talks about a House Edgerton which includes a wheel of flame amongst other things on its standard, but that never seems to have been mentioned in the books.
• Ditto for the arms of House Qoherys, where it's only a "flaming saltire" anyways.
• House Waxley has candles... ok, candles probably have a flame, but you'd never call it fire (by the way, House Waxley is a case where the Citadel's listed sigil is in contradiction with the books - 6 candles, not 3)

It seems to me that none of these should count as featuring fire... except for the Targaryen sigils, all of which feature it prominently.

So even using dubious maybe-semi-canon sources, there might not be any non-Targ related instances of prominent fire on a sigil, beyond things like candles. Maybe this underlines a Targ connection to Mel's heritage, via the fiery heart sigil.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

If Melisandre burns Shireen, then her dream will come true. She will be eaten by a dragon. And remember that dragons burn their meat before they eat it. Crackpot a bit?

[yolkboy]

If Melisandre burns Shireen, then her dream will come true. She will be eaten by a dragon. And remember that dragons burn their meat before they eat it. Crackpot a bit?

It has a crackpot element, but I found it interesting that you described Mel as 'a dragon'. I'd never thought of that before, I don't know if she would be considered 'a dragon' or not, but given the bloodline we're talking about, it's possible I guess. There are so many mentions of 'the dragon' in various dreams and prophesies (usually signifying Jon IMO), but I wondered if Mel might fit in any. The idea about Shireen is an interesting one, although I'd need to look at the wording of the passage another time. Thanks for the idea, even if untrue it's worth considering.

[King of Winters]

It has a crackpot element, but I found it interesting that you described Mel as 'a dragon'. I'd never thought of that before, I don't know if she would be considered 'a dragon' or not, but given the bloodline we're talking about, it's possible I guess. There are so many mentions of 'the dragon' in various dreams and prophesies (usually signifying Jon IMO), but I wondered if Mel might fit in any. The idea about Shireen is an interesting one, although I'd need to look at the wording of the passage another time. Thanks for the idea, even if untrue it's worth considering.

If (F)Aegon is still called a Blackfyre (a black dragon) then so can Mels be, because they're both descended from the Great Bastards and even though the bloodlines are dilated, Aegon's still a [black] dragon, even though the Blackfyre line hasn't stayed pure.

So I think Mels could still be called a dragon.

[yolkboy]

If (F)Aegon is still called a Blackfyre (a black dragon) then so can Mels be, because they're both descended from the Great Bastards and even though the bloodlines are dilated, Aegon's still a [black] dragon, even though the Blackfyre line hasn't stayed pure.

So I think Mels could still be called a dragon.

Yes, good thinking, I was also wondering about fAegon-dragon as the 'mummers dragon' in prophetic terms, but that's more directly concerned with the fakeness of alleged Targaryenship than his own real identity. I'm so hazy on rules of lineage, I'm still not perfectly clear what does and doesn't constitute a 'dragon' exactly , but you may well probably be correct in what you're saying. Mel having both parents as Great Bastards might be significant, but with these 'bloodline' issues, I'm never sure where the line is - the same goes to King's blood, blood of the dragon etc.

[Rustseer-Dreamer of Oxides]

I may be reaching here, dany's vision - 'a great stone beast flying from a smoking tower, breathing shadow fire;'- Mel speaks of waking dragons from stone. She births shadows. If this theory is true, it seems she has dragon blood. If so, could she birth a shadow dragon that breathes shadow fire.

I had a funny idea in my head of somehow Mel 'breeds' with a dragon to create a shadow beast , lol, but after reading this OP and theories it seems somewhat more possible.

[Lord Egeman]

I used to think that D&E series were required but not elementary to understand ASoIaF. This theory completely changed my mind. Best read since the Reeds, Richard Lonmouth is Lem, or Septon Chayle is the HM.

[Lord Puff Fish]

Have to say, this is the best secret Targ(ish) theory I've read in a while.

[yolkboy]

I used to think that D&E series were required but not elementary to understand ASoIaF. This theory completely changed my mind. Best read since the Reeds, Richard Lonmouth is Lem, or Septon Chayle is the HM.

Have to say, this is the best secret Targ(ish) theory I've read in a while.

Thanks, do come back for the next installment in a couple of days. It regards the way in which Mel might bleed, and why her blood is so 'special'. I'm stuck as to whether I should make a new thread or post here. Probably I'll do it here and keep things together. But essentially it's a new thread jigsawing next to this one.

Regarding D and E, I'd have to say most of the descriptive evidence came from ssm's. Maybe Grrm fell behind the curve with D and E and decided to get certain info out there another way. The ssm's are linked in the the OP, in the references tab at the bottom. You can see I haven't cherry picked information, what grrm told us he did so for a reason IMO - it was measured.