S+B=M: Mel - The Red Star Bleeding / Melony Seastar (part 2 has been added on pg.9)

[Arya kiddin']

<snip>

Ok this maybe entirely crackpot, and I don't know where else to post it, so here you go.

The whole imagery of old gods being (white and red) - what is the meaning of this? So far we consider the Old Gods to be the Gods of the North, the Gods of Ice. What if they are actually the true gods who embody the union of ice and fire. We know that the old gods are not gods in the literal sense, they're no supernatural beings. But what they are is the collective conscience and knowledge of eons past, seeing that weirwoods are actually immortal. Is that what Martin is going for, and is that the meaning of the theme that magic exists but no supernatural beings? Gods are actually the natural forces that are a part of the nature, and comprise additionally of preserved wisdom of what has happened on the earth since the dawn.

Just a thought I had. :)

[Ygrain]

Ok this maybe entirely crackpot, and I don't know where else to post it, so here you go.

The whole imagery of old gods being (white and red) - what is the meaning of this? So far we consider the Old Gods to be the Gods of the North, the Gods of Ice. What if they are actually the true gods who embody the union of ice and fire. We know that the old gods are not gods in the literal sense, they're no supernatural beings. But what they are is the collective conscience and knowledge of eons past, seeing that weirwoods are actually immortal. Is that what Martin is going for, and is that the meaning of the theme that magic exists but no supernatural beings? Gods are actually the natural forces that are a part of the nature, and comprise additionally of preserved wisdom of what has happened on the earth since the dawn.

Just a thought I had. :)

My thought, as well. A song of ice and fire might then be the union of the two, balance.

[yolkboy]

Ok this maybe entirely crackpot, and I don't know where else to post it, so here you go.

The whole imagery of old gods being (white and red) - what is the meaning of this? So far we consider the Old Gods to be the Gods of the North, the Gods of Ice. What if they are actually the true gods who embody the union of ice and fire. We know that the old gods are not gods in the literal sense, they're no supernatural beings. But what they are is the collective conscience and knowledge of eons past, seeing that weirwoods are actually immortal. Is that what Martin is going for, and is that the meaning of the theme that magic exists but no supernatural beings? Gods are actually the natural forces that are a part of the nature, and comprise additionally of preserved wisdom of what has happened on the earth since the dawn.

Just a thought I had. :)

Interesting thoughts about the Gods, and the part about embodiment is what Ive been thinking about, with an emphasis on no supernatural God entities. My own ideas are not exactly the same but overlap with yours somewhat. We're in a World with prophetic people - Children of the forest, Asshai, Valyrians etc. We're entering an end-of-days period - perhaps the most important in the planet's history. If various groups have had visions of this time, long ago, perhaps the inspirations for these 'Gods' came from there. Could there have been visions of important characters long ago, relevant to the great battle that's going to commence - and some characters we know, have been foreseen & gradually started to be worshiped as Deities? Are the 'Gods' simply characters in the books - with nothing supernatural or almighty about them, turned into supposed Dieties over the thousands of years? You could argue that a lot of real world religions and cults start in a similar fashion.

For example, the Seven might be seven people who will help Azor Ahai reborn. Maybe someone saw them in visions and the Andals proclaimed them Deities, long ago, but they're just normal characters in reality. I've said the Old Gods might have been inspired by visions of Mel bleeding tears in greensight visions. It makes sense to me that the Gods will have a rational explanation, and given we're entering a critical moment for the planet and the story, it would fit that inspiration was drawn from visions of these times - times which might have been so important as to have been seen by many different cultures in different places. I will post a quote later to show how the supposed 'weeping blood' moment has effected another culture, far far away, adding to the idea that visions of the upcoming Azor Ahai scenario has touched almost all cultures on this planet in one way or another.

My thought, as well. A song of ice and fire might then be the union of the two, balance.

Generally speaking, I think this will be a huge theme - the balance. The AA rebirth scenario I alluded to has weirwood trees and a R'hllor priestess working together to awaken Azor Ahai. But, I think we can't discount the idea that ultimately, A song of ice and fire might also concern the inherent incompatibility between the two. It seems too neat to have a central theme of balance, when everything we've seen about man and nature points towards dischord, choas and disorder. Jon seems to be being lined up as an embodiment of union between the two - when the great battle comes, I'd be surprised if there were no negative consequences inherent in representing this union.

[Roddy Darwin]

I love all this so much - thanks yolkboy!

I have absolutely no smart mythological or spiritual contribution, so here's a little nitpicking in regards to the sigils featuring fire instead:

the personal arms of Lord Rossart (the alchemist) who chose a torch lit with wildfire, if you want to call that fire (it's green after all)

Bronn's sigil is a chain, also lit by wildfire. It hardly counts either, but for completeness' sake...

Again, thank you for such a documented and convincing and bloody cool theory. :)

(http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Heraldry/Entry/Ser_Bronn_of_the_Blackwater/)

[Lady Arya's Song]

This is from Arya's POV in the House of Black and White when she first enters . The doors opened.

A few candles burned along the walls, but gave so little light that Arya could not even see her own feet. Someone was whispering, too softly for her to make out words. Someone was weeping. She heard light footfalls, leather sliding over stone, a door opening and closing. Water, I hear water too.

Slowly her eyes adjusted. The temple seemed larger within than it had without. The septs of Westeros were 7sided, with 7 altars for the 7 god, but here there were more gods than seven. Statues of them stood along the walls, massive and threatening. Around their feet red candles flickered, as dim as distant stars. The nearest was a marble woman twelve feet tall. Real tears were trickling from her eyes, to fill the bowl she cradled in her arms.

So an almost blind Arya hears weeping and whispering and thinks about the Seven but finally sees red candles that flickered like stars. A marble ( white?) woman with real tears trickling from her eyes to fill a bowl she cradled ( like a babe? Jon Snow?) in her arms.

Not sure if this is helpful to your discussion but its another place where several symbols are used.

[Alia of the knife]

It was actually a trader from Qarth that told Doreah that dragons came from the moon, but yeah. Same point. :)

AGoT, Daenerys III:

Thanks Jon for always being awesome. :)

That was a great read, and I definitely need a re-read, but really good points.

[yolkboy]

This is from Arya's POV in the House of Black and White when she first enters . The doors opened.

A few candles burned along the walls, but gave so little light that Arya could not even see her own feet. Someone was whispering, too softly for her to make out words. Someone was weeping. She heard light footfalls, leather sliding over stone, a door opening and closing. Water, I hear water too.

Slowly her eyes adjusted. The temple seemed larger within than it had without. The septs of Westeros were 7sided, with 7 altars for the 7 god, but here there were more gods than seven. Statues of them stood along the walls, massive and threatening. Around their feet red candles flickered, as dim as distant stars. The nearest was a marble woman twelve feet tall. Real tears were trickling from her eyes, to fill the bowl she cradled in her arms.

So an almost blind Arya hears weeping and whispering and thinks about the Seven but finally sees red candles that flickered like stars. A marble ( white?) woman with real tears trickling from her eyes to fill a bowl she cradled ( like a babe? Jon Snow?) in her arms.

Not sure if this is helpful to your discussion but its another place where several symbols are used.

Hey woah, this is very helpful to the discussion Lady Arya. I can't analyse much further, as you've done a fine job by yourself. The statue links to Lyanna's statue which was described (figuratvely) as crying blood, we have red and stars and eyes and weeping - this is an excellent post. The statue is not only reminiscent of Lyanna's example, but (and I don't have much religious or historical knowledge) I saw this wiki from the 'real world'. Weeping Statue and Weeping Blood.

I was also thinking about the Seven. I'm not sure this is relevant but here goes. Mel is confusing the rangers with the nine weirwoods. She says three rangers (aka weirwoods) will die. That leaves six crying weirwoods at the potential site of Jon's rebirth. With Mel's, that's Seven faces crying blood. The old Gods are at the scene and Mel is a R'hllor priestess.

I saw this recently too, with regards to Weirwoods crying blood. Hmm.

I definitely think this Arya scene is part of the web of 'weeping blood' clues, and I would never have found it myself, so thanks a lot for the input. The idea of the cradle/Jon is excellent too, so great work all round. :thumbsup:

[Alia of the knife]

This is from Arya's POV in the House of Black and White when she first enters . The doors opened.

A few candles burned along the walls, but gave so little light that Arya could not even see her own feet. Someone was whispering, too softly for her to make out words. Someone was weeping. She heard light footfalls, leather sliding over stone, a door opening and closing. Water, I hear water too.

Slowly her eyes adjusted. The temple seemed larger within than it had without. The septs of Westeros were 7sided, with 7 altars for the 7 god, but here there were more gods than seven. Statues of them stood along the walls, massive and threatening. Around their feet red candles flickered, as dim as distant stars. The nearest was a marble woman twelve feet tall. Real tears were trickling from her eyes, to fill the bowl she cradled in her arms.

So an almost blind Arya hears weeping and whispering and thinks about the Seven but finally sees red candles that flickered like stars. A marble ( white?) woman with real tears trickling from her eyes to fill a bowl she cradled ( like a babe? Jon Snow?) in her arms.

Not sure if this is helpful to your discussion but its another place where several symbols are used.

Great analysis, and again a big kudos to yolkboy and this thread, it's bee an great joy to read. :bowdown:

[Lady Arya's Song]

Not sure it applies in this thread but it might. A careful reading of the Arya chapter I posted from above, the description Martin wrote of Arya's boat ride in Bravos to the HOBW..its the entire story I believe on ASOIAF. The bridges, the canals the people on the canals..its all the story if we are smart enough to figure out the clues.

In the same way that the Battle of BlackWater Bay is the entire story of ASOIAF...lol the trick is to figure out the name of the ships and how they apply to the characters. I think the entire story is there.

Actually at this point my crackpot idea is that BR is behind most of the religions..I am not sure about the Black Goat and the goddess of the Unsullied or the House of Undying..those might be the great other..but it seems to me BR is pulling the puppet strings of all the religions in Westeros. The Seven, the R'hllor, and the OGods. I keep finding parallels between the great three in Westeros with BR at the core of all of them.

Oops forgot to add that the rest of the descriptions of the statues in Arya's temple..are also giving us clues.

[Frey family reunion]

Lady Arya, I suspect that Martin has given multiple overviews of his story hidden within various passages. I also suspect that The description of the courses served at Joffrey's wedding is another instance of this as well.

[The Mother of The Others]

disregarding bleeding eyes because we don't want to see any bleed-through from religions we don't want intruding into Westeros

I'm not disregarding tears of blood! The AA is a big deal in this land, christ-similar, right? She's his mum, no? The wish of whomever carved the Lyanna statue must have been to show her as a saintly figure cut down by circumstances that were so so so wrong. It was just a wish at the time, but it seems there's something more going on with these tears, as if the wish is becoming a reality or always was. As if the artist's greiving mind tapped into a more real undercurrent of fate when he/she accessed that image of crying blood, because that matches up with what Arya sees at the temple (perhaps because she's a family member of AA with specially receptive senses) and the Mary-esque statue matches up with what we know or expect to be coming (Jon as AA). The blood tears are like a mile marker on the journey toward prophecy fulfilment. I mean, don't slap the Catholicism aspect onto it if you don't want to, but the parallel is certainly present, just couch it in terms you're comfortable with, like "some blessed phenomenon is welling up here, signs and portents are appearing that point to a faint supernatural quality emerging from the joining of ice & fire."

old gods red & white = unified ice & fire?

their red & white could mean they're blood and ice, to go against the blood and fire of Essos. (If the OG old gods do represent the balancing of fire & ice, that'd fit with how Nature--living trees & greenseers--seem to be standing in the middle of the fight between the purely destructive forces of ice-wights and fire-dragons.)

[Lady Arya's Song]

I agree Frey family reunion about the Wedding feast..I wrote the entire thing out trying to figure out the story.

I also agree with the Mother of Others. I especially like what you said about Nature standing in the middle and trying to find balance.

Actually throughout the five books I have noticed tons of references to biblical stories or figures in the characters and actions, along with other religions as well. Martin is one very talented writer. He skillfully combines everything. What I love about his series is that everyone can read it and find just as many symbols or not..the series is like an onion.. the more layers you peel off the onion as you do rereads..the more it makes you cry sometimes at the beauty of the writing, or a story line or sometimes in grief over the loss of a beloved character.

Sorry just had to write that..its my tribute to Davos the onion knight and Martin's epic story. By the way Rabbis also say this regarding the Torah..its also likened to an onion..with many layers. They also say its like fine wine and Martin has for sure used wine in this story symbolically.

[Arya kiddin']

Not sure it applies in this thread but it might. A careful reading of the Arya chapter I posted from above, the description Martin wrote of Arya's boat ride in Bravos to the HOBW..its the entire story I believe on ASOIAF. The bridges, the canals the people on the canals..its all the story if we are smart enough to figure out the clues.

In the same way that the Battle of BlackWater Bay is the entire story of ASOIAF...lol the trick is to figure out the name of the ships and how they apply to the characters. I think the entire story is there.

Actually at this point my crackpot idea is that BR is behind most of the religions..I am not sure about the Black Goat and the goddess of the Unsullied or the House of Undying..those might be the great other..but it seems to me BR is pulling the puppet strings of all the religions in Westeros. The Seven, the R'hllor, and the OGods. I keep finding parallels between the great three in Westeros with BR at the core of all of them.

Oops forgot to add that the rest of the descriptions of the statues in Arya's temple..are also giving us clues.

Lady Arya, I suspect that Martin has given multiple overviews of his story hidden within various passages. I also suspect that The description of the courses served at Joffrey's wedding is another instance of this as well.

I know I'm sidetracking here, but Martin giving entire story of a character in a passage alone is something that Blede recently analyed in his Jaime re-read. It was pretty convincing. Read it here. :)

[Grey Words]

If Shiera+Bloodraven=Mel, she has King's blood, Valyrian, Andal & Essosi blood, blood of the first men / children o-t-f and blood touched by R'hllor. Could her blood perhaps be symbolic, significant, or even magical?

Am amazed by your theory and find it as compelling and credible as it is enjoyable to read and ponder. Not to interrupt the fascinating thoughts on the power of Mel's blood, but In harking back to the mere fact of her having red eyes as does Bloodraven reminded me of this that indicates her red eyes as having power, from Bran III in ADwD

Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood or green as the moss in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift.

it seems to me that her red eyes too are evidence of her having blood of the cotf, link her to BR very likely as her father and are a source of special power: the gift. Could it be that her troubles interpreting what she sees in the flames, especially since she is now in the North, relate to her erroneously attributing her power to her Red God and not greenseeing? Also having those same red eyes and actually being a greenseer would seemingly make BR very much aware of her.

Apologies again for intruding here and if this issue has been brought up before and I missed it! And kudos once more for your superb theory. :bowdown:

[The Mother of The Others]

Ha! That's why her wires are crossed! She's running multiple "Seer" software packages simultaneously. She's got Greenseer as does Jojen; she's got RedSeer powers ala Moqorro. It's a jumbled mess in that brain. No wonder.

[Grey Words]

TMotO, I know it's Crackpot but that's the family my brain was born into.

[a free shadow]

Thanks for the update :ninja: 9/9 is a nice detail. I peeked at what it is said about symbolism of 9, though it might not matter and it likely needs a better research. But the general pattern seems to be "symbol of the creation", "number of the one who accomplishes the divine will", "completeness", "end of cycle", "number of the achievement", "eternal number of human birth and immortality".

If you are thinking of the place of the 9 wierwoods as the AA rebirth location, it might be loosely related (also might be accidental :ninja: )

Wikipedia also says "9 is strongly associated with the Chinese dragon".

[yolkboy]

Also having those same red eyes and actually being a greenseer would seemingly make BR very much aware of her.

Apologies again for intruding here and if this issue has been brought up before and I missed it! And kudos once more for your superb theory. :bowdown:

First of all you're not intruding! The part of your quote that I've put above - regarding the issue of whether Bloodraven would know who Mel was. Well - already BR seems to know everything about Westeros with his thousand eyes and one. But let's say he never knew about Mel. He's in his raven at the Wall, though they havent met onpage yet. Mel, as the first post underlined, looks very much like Shiera. The heart shaped face etc. Grrm's ssm regarding red dye points towards her dying the hair - so she's likely an albino, with those red eyes. How many albino's are in this story? He would figure it out pretty quickly, if he didnt already know. So, yeah those red eyes connect Mel to BR and the weirwoods, and Ghost.

ETA - Nobody in Mel's 'order' has the prophetic powers she has. Wonder if she inherited a little something in that regard. Mel is also described as having a 'third eye', like the 3EC. Her third eye is her ruby.

---

Regarding whether Grrm would go for bleeding eyes, given it's ties to religion.

1. As Lady Gwyn pointed out it has many other cultural/historical/mythological connotations.

2. Bleeding eyes is all over the books already. It seems obvious now. I can think of many instances of allusions to weeping blood off the top of my head, I'll categorize them

• Weirwoods

Mel weeps, her "tears were flame". Flame as in red?

Lyanna statue "wept blood"

White marble statue crying that Arya was around

Another crying white statue at the Eyrie

Varamyr imagines looking through a weirwood and sees a woman crying red tears

Jon dreams Gilly weeping tears of blood

The Wall weeps and is said to be "made of blood"

Cersei's dress

Qorrin's blood splatter

Numerous facial sores are described as weeping blood

Qyburn cut off the Blue Bard's nipple, described as a red eye that wept blood.

The Weeper's victims

In the 'Mystery Knight' a boy weeps blood

Pate 'sleepy eyes' aka Red-eyed Pate sees a man weep blood

A traitor in the 'Mystery Knight' weeps blood

Bloodraven losing an eye might be some kind of nod

Lady Stoneheart with bloody scratches down her face - "red tears" said the Ghost of HH

The eastern tribes who wear rubies in their cheeks

That last one is interesting...

warrior maids from Bayasabhad, Shamyriana, and Kayakayanaya with rubies in their cheeks

These villages are likely tribal and on the Asshai side of the Bone Mountains in Essos, a great cultural divider. What we know of places so far east is that they are very interested in prophesies and Azor Ahai, from what we know of Asshai. So, given rubies = blood very often in the text, what are these tribes trying to look like? Rubies in cheeks seems like it might resemble weeping blood. If so, did they have visions/prophesies of Azor Ahai's rebirth, as Asshai'i have? Are they trying to look like visions of Mel?

Again, if this is supposed to be a homage to a weeping blood moment, the Mel indicative ruby is used once more.

[yolkboy]

Bleeding Eyes & Grrm's Evasions. (read part 2 on pg.9 first)

Grrm went to some lengths to compare and link the bleeding eyes of a weirwood with those of Mel as indirectly as possible. This was a tactic that both gave the reader a clue, and evaded an important comparison, at the same time.

Here's where it starts, in aSoS - this literary maneuver has two layers...

The direwolf had no answer... his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns. Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree.

Jon briefly compares Mel's eyes with the weirwoods. This is the only time a human character is compared to a weirwood - so it puts something in our sub-conscience. Then Jon decides Ghosts eyes look like the trees', and Mels don't - so he immediately puts us off the idea. Making us think about Ghosts eyes, is misdirection. The trees' red and white colour scheme that Jon mentions, is of course more similar to Mel than Ghost. It's not until aDwD that the next piece of the puzzle is laid out...

Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye growing brighter than all the others. Jon had seen Ghost's eyes blazing red the same way, when they caught the light just right.

Jon decides Ghost's eyes look like Mels', but only "in a certain light". Ergo, 'in a certain light' Mel's eyes do, infact, look like the weirwoods. You can see in the first quote, it was getting dark. In the clear light of day, Mel's eyes and the weirwoods probably look very alike - remembering hers are described as 'unearthly'. The underlined part seems to be a reference to to the first quote, to link them further.

If you look at how the passage is written, Grrm uses standout descriptions and similar wording to purposely link these two together. This was a sort-of puzzle, and a subtle round-about way of letting the reader know, Mel's eyes look very similar to weirwoods'- giving further weight to the idea that she might bleed in the same way. The fact he's tried to hide and disguise these parallels from the reader emphasise one thing - that this is important.

[Arya kiddin']

Bleeding Eyes & Grrm's Evasions.

<snip>

It was spot on again yolkboy, explained very nicely so I have nothing to add. Agree with this. :thumbsup: