S+B=M: Mel - The Red Star Bleeding / Melony Seastar (part 2 has been added on pg.9)

[Lost Melnibonean]

Bleeding Eyes & Grrm's Evasions.

Grrm went to some lengths to compare and link the bleeding eyes of a weirwood with those of Mel as indirectly as possible. This was a tactic that both gave the reader a clue, and evaded an important comparison, at the same time.

Here's where it starts, in aSoS - this literary maneuver has two layers...

Jon briefly compares Mel's eyes with the weirwoods. This is the only time a human character is compared to a weirwood - so it puts something in our sub-conscience. Then Jon decides Ghosts eyes look like the trees', and Mels don't - so he immediately puts us off the idea. Making us think about Ghosts eyes, is misdirection. The trees' red and white colour scheme that Jon mentions, is of course more similar to Mel than Ghost. It's not until aDwD that the next piece of the puzzle is laid out...

Jon decides Ghost's eyes look like Mels', but only "in a certain light". Ergo, 'in a certain light' Mel's eyes do, infact, look like the weirwoods. You can see in the first quote, it was getting dark. In the clear light of day, Mel's eyes and the weirwoods probably look very alike - remembering hers are described as 'unearthly'. The underlined part seems to be a reference to to the first quote, to link them further.

If you look at how the passage is written, Grrm uses standout descriptions and similar wording to purposely link these two together. This was a sort-of puzzle, and a subtle round-about way of letting the reader know, Mel's eyes look very similar to weirwoods'- giving further weight to the idea that she might bleed in the same way. The fact he's tried to hide and disguise these parallels from the reader emphasise one thing - that this is important.

Wow, for me this may be the clincher for B+S=M.

[yolkboy]

Wow, for me this may be the clincher for B+S=M.

Well the topic of conversion has been how Mel's eyes might bleed like a weirwoods in her red star bleeding moment, and has been for a couple of pages since I posted Part 2, evidence that it might happen. You would have to have read part 2 to understand the above - why Grrm's evasion of certain things is telling. This thread is equally concerned with the 'red star bleeding' as it is with S+B=M - says so in the title...

S+B=M: Mel - The Red Star Bleeding

To add something constructive: when Mel is weeping in aDwD "her tears were flame". Flame as in red?

[a free shadow]

This was a tactic that both gave the reader a clue, and evaded an important comparison, at the same time.

It would be similar to how a connection between Jon and Lyanna was added to the text. In that case "Arya looked like Lyanna", "Jon looked like Arya". In this case "Ghost's eyes are like wierwood's", "Mel's eyes looked like Ghost's". I think.

[yolkboy]

It would be similar to how a connection between Jon and Lyanna was added to the text. In that case "Arya looked like Lyanna", "Jon looked like Arya". In this case "Ghost's eyes are like wierwood's", "Mel's eyes looked like Ghost's". I think.

Yes, that's a really good example - making an important comparison by proxy, as not to be too obvious. I wonder if the wording in the relevant descriptions of what you mentioned has similar connections.

To further the theme of evasion, I wanted to add that, at no point, are weirwoods said to weep blood. Their sap is likened to blood 5-6 times, and their weeping is commented upon - again this evasion is telling. Here's an example...

"Eight days ago Asha had walked out with Aly Mormont to have a closer look at its slitted red eyes and bloody mouth. It is only sap, she’d told herself, the red sap that flows inside these weirwoods. But her eyes were unconvinced; seeing was believing, and what they saw was frozen blood."

This time the sap is being called blood, with literal connotations. Grrm side-steps using "weeping blood" by having the sap around it's mouth. This kind of tactic is used several times - so why would he do this, unless weeping blood carried a 'lil secret?

[Rahgh Neqaj]

Great theory. :-)

My thoughts where that she might provide the blood to keep Jon alive and that Shiera might have died giving birth to her. The first thing is maybe wishful thinking because I like Jon but I think I'm able to elaborate further on the second with some additional speculation:

• If Lady Serenei had magical powers, it seems odd that she died giving birth. Maybe this particular "life & beauty"-charm works in a way where giving birth means certain death. If you need blood (the life of others) to maintain the charm, why should you be able to conceive & nurture new life? So you really want to be careful who gets you pregnant. You can keep others at a distance by being cold & haughty for example and only show your true nature to the one you've chosen as father.
  
• Shiera seemed very careful not to get attached permanently to anyone. True, she had a fair amount of lovers and shared her bed with Bloodraven but obviously she was careful not to get pregnant.
  
• We can only speculate about her getting pregnant but: Bloodraven and Shiera may have had plans to have a child sometime in the future. When Maekar ascended to the throne, they might've sped up the plan as Bloodraven might have had reasons to fear for his live. (Certainly his freedom.) Maekar imprisoned Bloodraven and a pregnant Shiera decides to flee.
  
• Being a fugitive, she died during child-birth. Without trust-worthy people around her, who would take care of the child? Bad luck strikes, whomever she trusted sells the child to a slaver and keeps whatever jewellery she had left. The child grows up to be Melisandre.
  

The one thing that strikes me as odd though is the transfer of knowledge. Let's assume that Lady Serenei has magic powers. In ASOIAF all the really powerful magic has to be learned. But how does Lady Serenei teach Shiera if she died giving birth to her? Bloodraven might have taught her but that works only if magical talents of Valyrians and First Men are equal, i.e. if Valyrians were able to perform First Men magic (provided they learnt it) and vice versa. Would Lady Serenei have taught her Valyrian "life & beauty"-charm to Bloodraven or someone else so that they teach Shiera? Did she leave secret notes to Shiera? All a bit difficult to believe.

It becomes a little easier for Melisandre as she had the possibility to learn from the red priests and seems to use more or less exclusively "red priest magic" which in turn has the fire-similarity to Valyrian magic.

[Rhaegar's Love]

Glad I finally got to get caught up as some very interesting points have been made all around.

I was wondering if there might be another hint at Mel being of Targ blood through Maester Aemon and the Wall.

I believe it was in her POV chapter, that she thought about how the Wall made her more powerful. It seems also to have elongated Maester Aemon's life. He was doing all right, despite being incredibly old especially by Westerosi standards, until he left it, and then went very quickly downhill. The magic of the Wall could also be what keeps Jon from passing over the brink of death, until whatever needs to happen, can happen for Mel to be the bleeding red star (finding out about her heritage for example).

So whatever magic is in the Wall, could give a power of sorts to those of Targ blood, and that's why Mel felt her strongest.

[Varameera]

What a great theory!! I'm sorry if someone has mentioned this before. I've read "almost" every post in this topic but not all....yet.

Do you think it's possible that this is precisely the reason that Ghost seems to have a connection to Mel?

[Lord Egeman]

So whatever magic is in the Wall, could give a power of sorts to those of Targ blood, and that's why Mel felt her strongest.

I do not think that this is really the case. Maybe the Wall does something to ones with "Special blood" in general; dragon blood, greenseer blood, King's blood. It can't be just Targaryen blood, they weren't around when the Wall was built.

[Muggle]

I think GRRM said once that we would see asshai, But not in a literal sense but in a flash back. Perhaps this is how its confirmed that Mel as you say. From a Bran/ Blood Raven dream or from a another POV of Mel and her just having a dream or vision or just daydreaming of her past.

I like it,

Threads like this make me get all impatient for the next book.

[yolkboy]

The one thing that strikes me as odd though is the transfer of knowledge. Let's assume that Lady Serenei has magic powers. In ASOIAF all the really powerful magic has to be learned. But how does Lady Serenei teach Shiera if she died giving birth to her? Bloodraven might have taught her but that works only if magical talents of Valyrians and First Men are equal, i.e. if Valyrians were able to perform First Men magic (provided they learnt it) and vice versa. Would Lady Serenei have taught her Valyrian "life & beauty"-charm to Bloodraven or someone else so that they teach Shiera? Did she leave secret notes to Shiera? All a bit difficult to believe.

It becomes a little easier for Melisandre as she had the possibility to learn from the red priests and seems to use more or less exclusively "red priest magic" which in turn has the fire-similarity to Valyrian magic.

Regarding transfer of knowledge, specifically of magic, we could think of Shiera' interest and aptitude as some kind of inherited trait - that was also possibly passed down to Mel. With regard to Serenei leaving secret notes, that could be a possibility, but more likely Shiera might have inherited a library of relevant books from her, on the subject. Shiera was a keen reader from a young age, and maintained a large arcane library. I'd say the chances of some of those books concerning magic are quite high, given Shiera and Serenei seem to have very specific interest in certain magics. So, in that way, Shiera could have feasibly inherited the information Serenei left behind on the birthing bed.

Glad I finally got to get caught up as some very interesting points have been made all around.

I was wondering if there might be another hint at Mel being of Targ blood through Maester Aemon and the Wall.

I believe it was in her POV chapter, that she thought about how the Wall made her more powerful. It seems also to have elongated Maester Aemon's life. He was doing all right, despite being incredibly old especially by Westerosi standards, until he left it, and then went very quickly downhill. The magic of the Wall could also be what keeps Jon from passing over the brink of death, until whatever needs to happen, can happen for Mel to be the bleeding red star (finding out about her heritage for example).

So whatever magic is in the Wall, could give a power of sorts to those of Targ blood, and that's why Mel felt her strongest.

I'd never considered if the Wall had lengthened Aemons life or not, the idea is new to me. Certainly we see Mels powers increas there, a parallel to seeing magic powers strengthen around dragons in Essos. I'd have to ponder if Targ blood is relevant, certainly Mel's prophetic powers might be, in some way, her possible Targ/BR heritage. She has the best prophetic abilities of anyone in her order.

Speaking of the Wall in the context of part2, the leading theme was 'weeping blood'. Well there's a link here because the Wall is said to weep (and specifically weep, not cry), and is said to be figuratively made of blood by Ygritte. So a possible connection to Mel, the Wall and weirwoods, who might all fit into this concept in one way or another.

What a great theory!! I'm sorry if someone has mentioned this before. I've read "almost" every post in this topic but not all....yet.

Do you think it's possible that this is precisely the reason that Ghost seems to have a connection to Mel?

Yes this has been discussed somewhere in the thread, starting here I think

We were looking at a triple-pointer of albino's/red eyes with Mel, Ghost and Bloodraven. In part two I made a connection to weiwoods also, which have white bodies and red eyes, so the connection is now a quadruple-pointer. I find this dynamic extremely interesting, as a whole - there are no other albino's in the story IIRC.

I think GRRM said once that we would see asshai, But not in a literal sense but in a flash back. Perhaps this is how its confirmed that Mel as you say. From a Bran/ Blood Raven dream or from a another POV of Mel and her just having a dream or vision or just daydreaming of her past.

I like it,

Threads like this make me get all impatient for the next book.

Yes, we might see Asshai by flashback. With Jon incapacitated, and Mels POV being introduced (I think this was no coincidence as we need a POV at the Wall), I expect to see more Mel POV's and perhaps glimpses of her past and further clues to her heritage and history. Whether Asshai will be used as a method of a direct reveal, I have no idea. I would say BR would be a direct part of the reveal if I had to guess.

[Rahgh Neqaj]

[...]

I'd never considered if the Wall had lengthened Aemons life or not, the idea is new to me. Certainly we see Mels powers increas there, a parallel to seeing magic powers strengthen around dragons in Essos. I'd have to ponder if Targ blood is relevant, certainly Mel's prophetic powers might be, in some way, her possible Targ/BR heritage. She has the best prophetic abilities of anyone in her order.

[...]

I think it was Sam who observed on their trip to Oldtown (possibly while they were trying to get out of Bravos) that Aemon's health declined as soon as they left the cold of the wall and that ice is used to preserve meat. Haven't got access to the books atm though and can't look it up for reference.

[Ygrain]

I think it was Sam who observed on their trip to Oldtown (possibly while they were trying to get out of Bravos) that Aemon's health declined as soon as they left the cold of the wall and that ice is used to preserve meat. Haven't got access to the books atm though and can't look it up for reference.

I read this just a couple of hours ago - Aemon says that fire consumes but cold preserves and that he should have realized this before leaving.

[Rooseman]

Do you think it's possible that this is precisely the reason that Ghost seems to have a connection to Mel?

I believe, that in the World of Ice and Fire app, they confirmed that Melisandre used some kind of magic trick to disturb Jon's and Ghost's connection and make him come to her.

Here's the exchange:

“He will not harm me. You call him Ghost, yes?”

“Yes, but …”

“Ghost.” Melisandre made the word a song.

The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held

out her hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers.

Jon let out a white breath. “He is not always so …”

“… warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow.” Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark.

At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others. Jon had seen Ghost’s eyes

blazing red the same way, when they caught the light just right. “Ghost,” he called. “To me.”

The direwolf looked at him as if he were a stranger.

Jon frowned in disbelief. “That’s … queer.”

“You think so?” She knelt and scratched Ghost behind his ear. “Your Wall is a queer place, but

there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your

mistake. Embrace it. Use it.”

"She made the word a song," in context of the books, the "song" refers to the fantasy aspect, and songs are often used for spells.

[Varameera]

Delete

[Varameera]

Thanks Rooseman. That tactic has also been used by MMD, in the tent as well as on the pyre. However I still think Mel and Ghost, and BR for that matter, are linked. Their appearance is too similar to be coincidence

[yolkboy]

I believe, that in the World of Ice and Fire app, they confirmed that Melisandre used some kind of magic trick to disturb Jon's and Ghost's connection and make him come to her.

Thanks Rooseman. That tactic has also been used by MMD, in the tent as well as on the pyre. However I still think Mel and Ghost, and BR for that matter, are linked. Their appearance is too similar to be coincidence

Just for clarity's sake I'll give what it says exactly on the app (which i think is canon, though there have been mistakes on there)

"Later, speaking to Jon, she calls Ghost to her and somehow momentarily interferes with Jon's connection to the direwolf, so that Ghost does not respond to Ghost or come at his command. She offers to take Jon to bed, and show him how to embrace the power that is in him and in Ghost."

I actually think this doesn't tell us more than we'd thought from the text. The idea it's magic she uses is alluded to maybe, but not outright confirmed. Good point about the 'song' Rooseman, I think that might be a very good clue. We've also seen Mel use her voice for magic already, when she says something to Jon - and Mance hears something different, despite them being next to each other (aDwD).

[Rooseman]

However I still think Mel and Ghost, and BR for that matter, are linked. Their appearance is too similar to be coincidence

Oh, I do not doubt that. This great thread has me very much convinced. I'm not that talented at making all those connections by myself, but I believe that I can identify a good theory when I see one, and this is definitely one of them. :)

[Kasporio]

Maybe Mel is more likely Shiera grand daughter no? Shiera could have died giving birth, but thats lame. Mel has few memories of her past.

If she is Shiera's daughter, she's like 100 yo.

As a red priest, she uses valyrian blood magic, and is almost pureblooded valyrian. She doesnt need food or water to live and barely sleep, like Moqorro.

Some examples about skingchanging suggest that, while the powers are inate, it needs alot of practice, and someone unaware might never master it. If Mel is Shiera's daughter, she wasnt taught by her in blood magic and didnt inherited her mother books since she was sold as a slave and probably stripped of every belongings.

Mel's blood magic is incredibly potent, unlike Maggy and Yna's powers, limited to foretell the future in a drop of blood.

She undoubtly was taught magic in Asshai. If Mel is related to Shiera, could she be related in anyway to Quaithe? She's the only other character from Asshai and is even more mysterious than the red women.

[yolkboy]

Maybe Mel is more likely Shiera grand daughter no? Shiera could have died giving birth, but thats lame. Mel has few memories of her past.

If she is Shiera's daughter, she's like 100 yo.

As a red priest, she uses valyrian blood magic, and is almost pureblooded valyrian. She doesnt need food or water to live and barely sleep, like Moqorro.

Some examples about skingchanging suggest that, while the powers are inate, it needs alot of practice, and someone unaware might never master it. If Mel is Shiera's daughter, she wasnt taught by her in blood magic and didnt inherited her mother books since she was sold as a slave and probably stripped of every belongings.

Mel's blood magic is incredibly potent, unlike Maggy and Yna's powers, limited to foretell the future in a drop of blood.

She undoubtly was taught magic in Asshai. If Mel is related to Shiera, could she be related in anyway to Quaithe? She's the only other character from Asshai and is even more mysterious than the red women.

1. Mel's appearance is an exact mash of Bloodraven and Shiera, so little or no hint of anyone else.

2. Grrm told Carice Van Houten Mel is over 100 years old, there's also several clues she's very old, alongside the hints that Shiera and Serenei practiced magic to elongate their lives.

3. Noone said Mel could skinchange, her interference with Ghost is due to a trick with her voice it seems

.

4. Yes I agree Mel didnt inherit books from Shiera, but perhaps passed down an aptitude for prophesy and magic, like a family trait. The discussion about books being passed regarded Serenei to Shiera.

[First of My Name]

1. Mel's appearance is an exact mash of Bloodraven and Shiera, so little or no hint of anyone else.

2. Grrm told Carice Van Houten Mel is over 100 years old, there's also several clues she's very old, alongside the hints that Shiera and Serenei practiced magic to elongate their lives.

3. Noone said Mel could skinchange, her interference with Ghost is due to a trick with her voice it seems

.

4. Yes I agree Mel didnt inherit books from Shiera, but perhaps passed down an aptitude for prophesy and magic, like a family trait. The discussion about books being passed regarded Serenei to Shiera.

Sorry if this was asked already in this thread, but source please?