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yolkboy

S+B=M: Mel - The Red Star Bleeding / Melony Seastar (part 2 has been added on pg.9)

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Great theory yolkboy, and very well presented! As soon as I saw the title I started thinking of evidence (all of which you've more than covered), and all those small questions about Mel and glamours ;)

This makes much more sense from an evidentiary perspective as well as a plot perspective than any other I've seen. Well done and consider me on board :cheers:

Aw thanks Lady Gwyn.

Yes, the glamouring is a tricky one because there's a few unknowns and variables.

My personal stance is that Mel is glamouring as a younger version of herself. She says bones make the strongest glamours because they 'remember'. Mel would have the bones she needs right in her own body for that one.

I can't buy that her glamour is completely 'made up' because we haven't seen that done before, and that the similarities of her appearance with Bloodraven and Shiera are just too similar not to be relevant.

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Mel is mentioned twice around Mormont's raven, and both times he says 'blood'. Once king's blood is being discussed, the next time it's for no apparent reason.

affc...

adwd

BTW if you could edit your post, and where youve quoted my op, delete and just write 'snip', it tidies up the thread. ;)

We've discussed previously, the idea that if Mel concluded that Jon was AA reborn, she would see herself as Nissa Nissa reborn, would become his lover, and want to re-enact the ancient sacrifice. Do you see this as another piece in the jigsaw?

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We've discussed previously, the idea that if Mel concluded that Jon was AA reborn, she would see herself as Nissa Nissa reborn, would become his lover, and want to re-enact the ancient sacrifice. Do you see this as another piece in the jigsaw?

Well the evidence for this scenario is far far far lighter than what i've presented for Mel being the red star. But just as an idea, I like it (though not enough evidence to be sold).

I was thinking that if Jon goes into Ghost, as Varamyr points out, he will take on some of the direwolf's personality if he stays warged for too long, as well as the inherent change from being resurrected. Ghost is very fond of Mel, to the point he almost seems to prefer her to Jon on one occasion. If he takes on some of Ghost's personality, he might see Mel more favorably and he might be slightly more feral and instinctive. And we know what Mel wants to do with Jon, given half the chance.

When Mel births shadowbabies and bleeds, the words agony and ecstasy are used to describe her feelings, which is what Nissa Nissa felt when she was stabbed in the heart - so there might be a connection there. It would be fitting, as she brought the fiery heart sigil to Westeros. She also has supposedly powerful 'King's blood' / blood of the dragon if i'm right about her parents.

I like this idea, but again, it's light on evidence and I wouldn't present it as anything other than a chin stroke.

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Well done yolkboy.I think this is possibly the best out of a series of good theories recently.I hope it proves true,as well!

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Yep.

Mel is/was a slave too.

I just had this thought:

Would Sheira Seastar really be helpless to stop her daughter from being sold as a slave?

If the woman crying out is Mel's mom, I don't think it's Sheira.

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I just had this thought:

Would Sheira Seastar really be helpless to stop her daughter from being sold as a slave?

If the woman crying out is Mel's mom, I don't think it's Sheira.

Perhaps Shiera died giving birth to her, or died when Mels was young.

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I just had this thought:

Would Sheira Seastar really be helpless to stop her daughter from being sold as a slave?

If the woman crying out is Mel's mom, I don't think it's Sheira.

How could she have stopped herself or her daughter being sold as slaves? All that is required to believe this is to believe a well armed slaver could overpower a woman and a child. We've seen Tyrion, Jorah and Penny being taken in a like manner. I'm not sure why this would be a sticking point.

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I just had this thought:

Would Sheira Seastar really be helpless to stop her daughter from being sold as a slave?

If the woman crying out is Mel's mom, I don't think it's Sheira.

Yeah slavers take what they want. I'm not implying Shiera sold Mel or was complicit at all. If Mel was taken into slavery whilst she was with her mother, then most probably mother was too.

Perhaps Shiera died giving birth to her, or died when Mels was young.

There's also always the possibility that Shiera was pregnant when captured, and Mel was birthed in captivity. Personally, I think it was her mother crying out Melony's name, I don't see who else it would be, or what the point of including that part is to the story otherwise.

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I am completely sold on this!

I've had an inkling for a while now that Mel was the red star but couldn't connect the dots to prove it so major props to you yolkboy :bowdown: :thumbsup: .You've gone above and beyond that here.

It's much more significant (especially if Jon turns out to be AAR), than some random comet that means something different to everybody.

I'm sure I'll be linking this in the future!

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How could she have stopped herself or her daughter being sold as slaves? All that is required to believe this is to believe a well armed slaver could overpower a woman and a child. We've seen Tyrion, Jorah and Penny being taken in a like manner. I'm not sure why this would be a sticking point.

Shiera might have been held for ransom, although if she had to flee Westeros for political reasons, there might be no one to ransom her. Slavery, and loss of her child, would be a dreadful fate for the daughter of Aegon IV.

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I am completely sold on this!

I've had an inkling for a while now that Mel was the red star but couldn't connect the dots to prove it so major props to you yolkboy :bowdown: :thumbsup: .You've gone above and beyond that here.

It's much more significant (especially if Jon turns out to be AAR), than some random comet that means something different to everybody.

I'm sure I'll be linking this in the future!

Well Thanks RL.

Yeah I guess the two main competing red star theories are the comet and Patrek's bloody shirt.

The comet always seemed far too obvious, with grrm hinting that everyone has their own meaning for it that didnt hold much weight. I think he wanted the reader to be the same.

Patrek's sigil must be false because it was only created especially for adwd after he lost a bet with a friend. The star is the star of the Dallas cowboys, and part of the bet was to include that as a sigil if grrm lost. Confirmed here...

http://fantasyhotlis...s-mountain.html

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Very interesting theory, yolky! I dont have much to add to be honest, but it would be quite the Tomato in the Mirror for Mel if its true. She believes the figure she saw in her vision (Bloodraven) was in fact, the Great Other. So if she is his child with Sheira, she'd be linked to the Great Other by her own logic. Which could trigger a massive freak out. lol!

Not completely sold on this, but im not ruling it out. Ill put this one on the Maybe Pile. Good thread mate! :cheers:

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This may even be NEW !?!?!?!?!?!?

Shocking, erotic, resonant,

(and this joins the list of "personified" prophecy interpretations. There's the big (holy shit) blockbuster way of interpreting the prophecies (where the futures of entire nations and cultures are at stake) and then there's the personified (writ small) way in which we're seeing these prophecies come to pass (such as when Patrick Mallister(?) was the [Dallas Cowboys] bleeding star in the fight vs. Wen Wen [N.Y. Giants]). So this Mel as Bleeding Star fulfillment of the prophecy may be like a tiny symbolic mirroring, on the human scale, of the large scale impact the prophecy will have on the realms of men.

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It would be so deliciously ironic if Mel needed to burn in order to further R'hllor's cause. Maybe we'll get to find out just how devout she really is. :devil:

I was wondering if you can account for Mel's use of the plural "stars" in ACoK, Davos I:

There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.

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It would be so deliciously ironic if Mel needed to burn in order to further the R'hllor's cause. Maybe we'll get to find out just how devout she really is. :devil:

You reminded me of the part where Mel is about to burn Rattleshirt, and feels the heat via the glamour. She doesn't like it much at all, and is relieved when he's killed before he can burn. She disguises her discomfort.

I was wondering if you can account for Mel's use of the plural "stars" in ACoK, Davos I:

Okay, my 2 explanations.

1. They are the same prophesy, and Mels just screwing up or the prophesy has become distorted over time and translation. The red star (singular) prophesy is recited multiple times, and the plural only once - leading me to think the plural would be the incorrect version. Star (singular) is also said by multiple characters - Marwyn and IIRC Aemon.

2. They are two distinct prophesies, and Mel will be the red star, and something later will be the red stars. If you look at the singular version - it depicts AA being reborn when the red star bleeds. If you look at the plural version, it concerns lightbringer being grasped. I don't think these events will happen at the same time, so there's a possibility the two prophesies are both true and distinct from one another. (ps the only thing described as red stars are Mel's eyes fwiw).

I personally favour number 1.

Please feel free to chime in with any other explanations you're thinking of, as I haven't given the issue much thought.

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Na too crazy.

Well that's the strongest counter argument so far, and I can't say it's crushing.

BTW your last post was a minute before this one, so either you read as quickly as short circuit, or you didn't read the thread. Youve flooded the forums with weird comments in about 10 threads in the space of a few minutes.

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Awesome work, great analysis. :bowdown:

The connections work, and it fits with Martins sense of irony.

She who is obsessed with "kings blood," and sacrificing others towards that end should be the one to be sacrificed herself.

Now, the question is, she see's BR in her flames, but doesn't know him as her father, BUT, would BR know who she is? (Sorry if you've already addressed this).

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If Varys is a supposed Targ and he ended up as a slave, perhaps Targs that wound up in Essos all were slaves.

If you think about the realistic survival of even the Blackfyres, then it's not at all surprising they might be in very modest to poor conditions. Look at Viserys and Dany.

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