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yolkboy

S+B=M: Mel - The Red Star Bleeding / Melony Seastar (part 2 has been added on pg.9)

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Very interesting and well put together. I don't buy it, but excellent job. For me, it comes down to differences in textual interpretation. For example, I've never taken her bleeding as something unusual in that instance, but rather part of the cost associated with magic and the mystical experience of union with her god (whether or not R'hllor exists isn't the point). In addition, I've not though the star references to her eyes were perhaps, if anything, a nod to the NK story and the similarities to what Stannis and Mel got up to with the shadow assassins. Again, great job with the evidence though.

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I've never taken her bleeding as something unusual in that instance, but rather part of the cost associated with magic and the mystical experience of union with her god (whether or not R'hllor exists isn't the point).

I've actually said in the thread that the bleeding is a result of Shadowbirthing, so we're on the same page. I don't see why this is relevant anyway. The point is that she bleeds spontaneously, and despite what you say, it is unusual if you read the passage - it's triggered (by thoughts/visions). Just because the origins/ailment might be in magic overdose/shadowbirthing, why would it effect the idea of her being the red star bleeding? She's the 'red woman', she's a Star of the Sea and she bleeds with no physical cause. That's really the basis of the argument. It doesn't really matter to the theory if the bleeding is a symptom of magic OD or eating too much Lamprey pie.

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Doesn't this set up an undesireable scenario, with these now-blood-related mages dancing together to "We Are Family" to close out the saga?

Or do you want to see some kind of "Hey, I know you! You're my dad!" from Melisandre because of how awesome that would be as a resolution to the eons' long struggles of the elements. It'd be a message of hope to people with dysfunctional families! Is this what we want for the FIre and Ice mystery, though?

“In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.”

it sounds like "There will come a day when the planet strays further from the sun and passes through the solar system's oort cloud of meteoroids / asteroids, which will cause the sky to be thick with falling stars as they burn up in the atmosphere, and the weather will become mightily chilled due to being in this more distant orbit. Then the hero will bind lots of dragons and send them to the planet's molten core to..... jigger with it, galvanize it, ungalvanize it (depending on what galvanize means), until the core starts spinning all turbo like and swings the planet back into gear again, sending it back into the inner traffic lanes closer to the sun." (The hero will command his dragon steeds to perform a left turn in outer space while they're hitched to the planetary carraige).

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But mels mother might have become a slave, and not been born as one.

Perhaps!

If Shiera was captured by slavers with Melony or while she was pregnant, I expect she most probably became a slave herself. It's not an issue IMO. Tyrion went East and he became a slave.

I want your theory to be true! I think it's great.

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In the OP I mentioned that the bleeding star was sneakily linked to Shiera via the Dothraki language, which i saw as nothing more than an easter egg (I didn't consider the translation).

The Dothraki named the comet shierak qiya, the Bleeding Star

I just saw a post by tze which made me realise something...

One of the insulting nicknames for Viserys among the Dothraki was "Khal Rhae Mhar", which was translated to Dany as "the Sorefoot King". The Dothraki term for "Bleeding Star" is apparently "Shierak Qiya", and given the nickname of Aegon IV's bastard daughter Shiera---Seastar---I feel safe in assuming that "Shierak" is Dothraki for "Star".

Shiera's name could therefore be considered as (or very close to, given Serenei was from Essos and might have chosen the name Shiera inspired by the Dothraki word) 'Star Seastar, Star of the sea'. It seems grrm was really trying to emphasise a certain link between Shiera and Stars with her name, more even than i'd first thought.

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as promised in the thread...

SAPPHIRE NECKLACE = SECRET

When Ned goes to see Tobho Mott to investigate Gendry, the armourer is wearing a huge sapphire necklace. The secret is Gendry's birth.

Later we see Tobho in the Red Keep, when Gendry is gone, there is no mention of the distinctive necklace.

Lysa wears a sapphire necklace when she's courting potential suitors/husbands - the secret being that she murdered her previous husband.

On the other occasion Lysa is described as wearing a sapphire necklace, she is talking to Sansa about Littlefinger, stood infront of a banner of Jon Arryn. The secret this time is not only did she killed him, but the topic of conversation - Littlefinger, helped her.

Robert Arryn wears a sapphire necklace in AFFC. Earlier in the chapter Sansa instructs the maester to give Robert sweet sleep rather than giving him milk of the poppy and tying him to mule during the descent. Several times she either mentions or thinks how important it is that he appear to be a strong lord. No one can know just how sickly he really is. Once he dressed and ready to go he shows up wearing sapphires. So the secret is concealing his ill health, and this is the only time he wears the necklace.

We don't see a sapphire necklace being worn without a secret, which brings Shiera's distinctive necklace under suspicion.

That good sir, is a fantastic attention to detail. I love this theory. I ​knew you were up to something. It's laid out in a logical fashion, and it would be interesting. I just am skeptical about how Mel would become a slave and a Red Priestess if she was Sheira Seastar's daughter. Yes it happened to Tyrion, but if she practiced magic, and dark arts in particular, would she has an advantage defending herself and her daughter?

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Thanks Alia.

I think Bloodraven knows, personally. Here's my reasons.

1. The two times Mel is mentioned around Mormont's Bloodraven, he says 'blood'. The second time is for no apparent reason whatsoever.

2. Bloodraven talks of lost love ones in this quote. He was clearly keeping an eye on Shiera it seems, so if she had his daughter, I can't see him not knowing. A thousand eyes and one. There's a little ambiguity about what point in time he is watching Shiera, so it's down to interpretation I guess.

3. From a storytelling perspective, how else is the reader going to know their relationship? How would the information 'come out'? If Bloodraven knows, he might, for example, mention it to Bran. If he doesn't know, I really don't see how this would be presented to us.

.

Thanks!

Now, another question.

Do we have any thoughts about what her feelings, )if she has any) for Jon might be? If there are any romantic feelings, that undermines her mission.

I go back and forth as to whether she is developing romantic feelings for Jon, but if she did, it's another case of Martins channeling Faulkner and " the human heart in conflict with itself."

I know the show and the series are different, but the show does seem to foreshadow a conflict between herself and Arya.

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That good sir, is a fantastic attention to detail. I love this theory. I ​knew you were up to something. It's laid out in a logical fashion, and it would be interesting. I just am skeptical about how Mel would become a slave and a Red Priestess if she was Sheira Seastar's daughter. Yes it happened to Tyrion, but if she practiced magic, and dark arts in particular, would she has an advantage defending herself and her daughter?

It seems likely that Shiera, if the rumours were true, practiced dark arts in order to retain beauty - I don't think she's an aggressive end-of-days sorceress like Mel (who would have had significantly more training), or Moqorro etc. In short, I don't think Shiera practiced magic for self-defence or violence.

This is all we know of her dark arts from the text.

"You've known queens and princesses. Did they dance with demons and practice the black arts?"

"Lady Shiera does, Lord Bloodraven's paramour. She bathes in blood to keep her beauty."

Also, Shiera's mother Serenei also had the same motive for her dark arts.

some said that she was much older than the king, and preserved her beauty by the practice of dark arts.

There's no suggestion of anything 'darker' going on for those two. Perhaps they just want to look nice.

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Do we have any thoughts about what her feelings, )if she has any) for Jon might be? If there are any romantic feelings, that undermines her mission.

I go back and forth as to whether she is developing romantic feelings for Jon, but if she did, it's another case of Martins channeling Faulkner and " the human heart in conflict with itself.".

Mel wants to make shadowbabies with Jon...

“I can show you.” Melisandre draped one slender arm over Ghost, and the direwolf licked her face. “The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows.”

“Shadows.” The world seemed darker when he said it. “Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord

...because she thinks they will be super-powered at the Wall, for the fight against 'darkness' (and she's obviously sensed Jon has the strenth that Stannis lost after shadowbabyfest round 1)......

Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them

... and this quote suggests that she has tried and failed to make Jon love her, but only as a way to get what she wants. She doesn't care if he loves her.

]He does not love me, will never love me, but he will make use of me. Well and good

I wouldn't like to leave book canon and speculate on the TV show with Arya, but it was certainly an interesting scene.

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That good sir, is a fantastic attention to detail. I love this theory. I ​knew you were up to something. It's laid out in a logical fashion, and it would be interesting. I just am skeptical about how Mel would become a slave and a Red Priestess if she was Sheira Seastar's daughter. Yes it happened to Tyrion, but if she practiced magic, and dark arts in particular, would she has an advantage defending herself and her daughter?

In addition to what yolkboy already said in response to this, I'd mention Pyat Pree and his warlocks. They got enslaved without much fuss. These things happen, and magic can only get you so far.

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In addition to what yolkboy already said in response to this, I'd mention Pyat Pree and his warlocks. They got enslaved without much fuss. These things happen, and magic can only get you so far.

Yeah I agree, the more I think about this the more I like it. Getting captured and sold off seems to happen often enough.

I also think it fascinating that if its true, a targ is supporting a "usurper" so she must really understand this big picture threat of the others, or not even care about the struggles over power in westeros.

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Shiera might have been held for ransom, although if she had to flee Westeros for political reasons, there might be no one to ransom her. Slavery, and loss of her child, would be a dreadful fate for the daughter of Aegon IV.

Yeah I agree, the more I think about this the more I like it. Getting captured and sold off seems to happen often enough.

SeanF mentioned ransoming and it got me thinking (aside from what Sean mentioned), - if Shiera got taken as a slave, being a King's bastard - why didn't she reveal her identity and get ransomed back to Westeros?

My solution is this. Shiera might have headed to Lys as her mother was from there. Melony seemed to be a slave in Volantis. So somewhere on the journey, they might have been captured by slavers heading to Volantis. Shiera was a "great reader" and interested in prophesies. Her mother was from Lys, so she probably knew about red priests and what they get up to.

This is why she would hide her identity - she knew her and Melony's king's blood would be highly desirable in Volantis. She knew the prophesies - she knew they would both possibly be ritualistically burned alive, as Edric almost was. Therefore it would be better to conceal the royal connection to avoid burnage.

Mel doesn't know she has King's blood, and this fits - Shiera would never burden her with the information that could get her sacrificed with fire.

That's my guess for why Shiera wasn't ransomed back to Westeros, although SeanF also made a good point.

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You reminded me of the part where Mel is about to burn Rattleshirt, and feels the heat via the glamour. She doesn't like it much at all, and is relieved when he's killed before he can burn. She disguises her discomfort.

Okay, my 2 explanations.

1. They are the same prophesy, and Mels just screwing up or the prophesy has become distorted over time and translation. The red star (singular) prophesy is recited multiple times, and the plural only once - leading me to think the plural would be the incorrect version. Star (singular) is also said by multiple characters - Marwyn and IIRC Aemon.

2. They are two distinct prophesies, and Mel will be the red star, and something later will be the red stars. If you look at the singular version - it depicts AA being reborn when the red star bleeds. If you look at the plural version, it concerns lightbringer being grasped. I don't think these events will happen at the same time, so there's a possibility the two prophesies are both true and distinct from one another. (ps the only thing described as red stars are Mel's eyes fwiw).

I personally favour number 1.

Please feel free to chime in with any other explanations you're thinking of, as I haven't given the issue much thought.

Well, I had the star/Stark thing which looked to be coming together nicely when combined with the Nissa Nissa sacrifice story + Lightbringer(-as-Dawn) origin story. Then you came along with this theory and all its damn evidence, so I'm not really sure. :P :dunno:

This reminded me of the time she used plural "stone dragons". I'm trying to do a search but having a brain fart on how the exact terms were used in each. I wonder if the plurals were said at the same time and if it's meaningful.

There was a recent bleeding star thread where Apple and I were discussing the possibility that GRRM is overlapping separate prophecies by using similar wording in an effort to confuse the readers; e.g., "waking dragons out of stone," "wake the stone dragon," etc.

ETA; Here is Apple's post from the aforementioned thread:

The problem with the prophecies, it seems, is largely threefold.

1. We have yet to see any prophecy in its entirety. At best we just have different pieces of them.

2. When snippets of prophecy seem to refer to the same thing, but there are discrepancies (like dragons vs. dragon), how should we decide which one is "correct"?

3. It's difficult to know whether different-sounding prophecies actually refer to the same thing, e.g. Azor Ahai and the Prince That Was Promised.

Another possibility I've considered is that it's actually two (or three, or four ...) discrete prophecies, but they have such significant similarities that any discrepancies that would otherwise denote their difference (like singular or multiple dragons, stars, whatever) get written off as translational or hearsay issues. Meaning, waking stone dragons and two kings to wake a dragon might actually refer to two different things, but this is lost because instead of hitting on the difference (plural vs. singular), we see the similarity and automatically assume it's the same thing.

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In addition to what yolkboy already said in response to this, I'd mention Pyat Pree and his warlocks. They got enslaved without much fuss.

Or so they made it seem. Why stick out and attract attention in a foreign land when you can lie in the grass and bide your time, letting Euron think he's in charge until your revenge on Stormborn is at hand when she comes to you. Then we might see who the real masters are in that Euron/dark sorcery relationship.

I also think it fascinating that if its true, a targ is supporting a "usurper"

I didn't follow that.

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Or so they made it seem. Why stick out and attract attention in a foreign land when you can lie in the grass and bide your time, letting Euron think he's in charge until your revenge on Stormborn is at hand when she comes to you. Then we might see who the real masters are in that Euron/dark sorcery relationship.

Maybe, but as I recall, Euron forced a few of the warlocks to eat their dead companion. I think that if they had been able to get out of that situation, they would have done so. Voluntarily cannibalizing your friend is...pretty deep cover, to say the least. That's not to say that Pyat and Co. aren't biding their time, waiting for the right moment. I'd just suggest again that magic can only get you so far, and while they may not have had the power to escape Euron yet, they may be able to given the right opportunity. Even Gandalf was a prisoner at one point.

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And didn't they have their tongues cut out? Why would they volunteer for that?

Not even Jack Bauer would go that far.

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It is great. I am not sure how would it pay off, if the theory is true. But it was so well detailed, that after reading it in full I got a feeling of a story, not of a theory. And even if nothing comes of it for future significance, in my head there will always be this story, this possibility, something Old Nan would tell, of a cloaked red woman who came back home through the seas, who knew so many tricky things and yet maybe only little about herself :unsure:

It gives some backstory to Melisandre, which I am not very much inclined to view as more than one-track mind so far :P

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Mel wants to make shadowbabies with Jon...

...because she thinks they will be super-powered at the Wall, for the fight against 'darkness' (and she's obviously sensed Jon has the strenth that Stannis lost after shadowbabyfest round 1)......

... and this quote suggests that she has tried and failed to make Jon love her, but only as a way to get what she wants. She doesn't care if he loves her.

I wouldn't like to leave book canon and speculate on the TV show with Arya, but it was certainly an interesting scene.

In terms of what the scene possibly foreshadows, I think it leads me back to the idea that has been touched upon in Lady Gywnhyfvars thread on the potential connections between aSoIaF and the Aruthurian Legeds with Arya possibly inhabiting the character of Morganna to Jon's Arthur.

Given the parallels between Aryas face-changing, and Morganas own glamour, within the context of that theory, Jon and Arya are either thrust together accidentally, or deliberately, something that Mel may sense but doesn't understand, yet it's still something that Mel resents because she is starting to have feelings for him and senses Arya as a rival to her intentions, both personally and "professionally."

It is not a popular idea even with me from a personal standpoint, but from a purely literary standpoint given the influencers of Martin, it's not outside the realm of possibility.

This statement haunts me the most:

http://25.media.tumb...af0ggo3_250.gif

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This statement haunts me the most:

http://25.media.tumb...af0ggo3_250.gif

At least in the TV show Eddard said: "You will marry a high lord and rule his castle", not "You will marry a king". I do not seem to find him saying "king" in the books either. Did he?

EDIT: I was corrected about the books. He promised kings to both of his daughters :laugh:

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