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S+B=M: Mel - The Red Star Bleeding / Melony Seastar (part 2 has been added on pg.9)


yolkboy

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Interesting. One thing that makes me think Melissandre is glamoring herself is that the other shadowbinders seen in the story wear red laquer masks:

ADWD The merchant's man (Quentyn I)

Here traders from Oldtown and King’s Landing mingled with their counterparts from Braavos and Pentos and Myr, with hairy Ibbenese, pale-skinned voyagers from Qarth, coal-black Summer Islanders in feathered cloaks, even masked shadow-binders from Asshai by the Shadow.



ACOK Daenerys I

The woman in the lacquered wooden mask said in the Common Tongue of the Seven Kingdoms, “I am Quaithe of the Shadow. We come seeking dragons.”


Add to the fact all priests and priestesses are bought as slaves, and all slaves are tattooed, doesn't this point to the fact that Melissandre should have a tattoo on her face we are not seeing?

From the viewpoint of trying to build a possible timeline or history that fits in with the narrative:

Considering Shiera Seastar would likely have left King's Landing once Bloodraven was imprisoned by Maekar, and perhaps gone to the free city of Lys where her mother was from, she must have known the Golden Company and any survivors from the Blackfyre rebellion may have been around in the same free cities.

I can see why she would have kept the truth of who she was from any children she may have had since they would probably have seen Sheira Seastar as an enemy, or a way to make Bloodraven pay for the failed rebellion. All speculation of course, but history wise that may work.

So just reviewing the numbers... and rambling up a brainstorm...

Wiki says Maekar I reigned 221 to 233 AL.

So Bloodraven was imprisoned around 221, released to the night's watch at 233. So Sheira would have had to have been pregnant before 221, unless one of the two were sneaking out of the cells of the Red Keep... which wouldn't surprise me. XD However I think the prison hanky panky is extremely unlikely because I doubt Maekar was OK with sorcery in general, since he wasn't OK with Bloodraven. Shiera probably had to leave in 221.

The war of Ninepenny Kings is estimated at 235 AL, since that happened in the free cities, if Shiera got caught up in it with her child she had with Bloodraven around 221, then that would be a theortical guess of around 13-14 years of age that the child (Mel) may have been sold off at auction.

edit: So wrong!!! War of ninepenny kings was at 259 AL, so never mind. :D Thanks History of Westeros for the correction.

Interesting how the history fits in with a decent (speculative) motive and story for Shiera to be where she had to be to end up with Mel being sold into slavery.

Now I'm just wondering if there's anything as to why Tyrion was reading about the sisters being sold into slavery. Could there have been two children? Certainly if only Mel was bought the other is most likely long dead by now. Don't recall any sort of twin or sister allusions in the books though, so I'm guessing no.

Honestly, I've been playing a game of mix and match the reborn historical figures, since I think reincarnation plays a big part in the story, and I think Shiera is Tyrion. Reads a lot, well educated, sense of humor, mismatched eyes, pale blond hair, and in Shiera's lifetime - neeever wanted to be married. If Sheira could see the future, maybe she saw a future as Tyrion and wanted none of it. She may have been helping Bloodraven's in his work as hand of the king too. And now a recent shared experience with being a slave. Destiny perhaps? Yes I know how crackpot that sounds. Tyrion as Mel's reborn mother. Oddly entertaining in my head.

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I think most of these connections are coincidental, though.

GRRM certainly draws some inspirations from other stories, legends etc., but I don't think it's so clear cut, that you can directly say "This character from ASOIAF is like that character from [insert some other work of literature]" with George being directly inspired by that.

Agree. I should have said that Bran was partially inspired by Fenrir

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Great post/thread. Very logical and insightful and well researched. Even if it is dead wrong it's fun to read and fires the imagination. Discovering new connections between seemingly unconnected plot elements always makes me smile.



Here are a few very minor things.





  • Ditto for the arms of House Qoherys, where it's only a "flaming saltire" anyways.



This would fit reasonably well anyhow since House Qoherys was almost certainly a Valyrian house, possibly a Targ cadet branch even.






The war of Ninepenny Kings is estimated at 235 AL, since that happened in the free cities, if Shiera got caught up in it with her child she had with Bloodraven around 221, then that would be a theortical guess of around 13-14 years of age that the child (Mel) may have been sold off at auction.






War of Ninepenny Kings was ~259.



I wonder with all this eye-imagery if you should be including the prophecy of the "dark eye" supposedly fixed on Daenerys, as it is related to the Red Temple prophecies/Azor Ahai. Pretty thin but perhaps worth considering.

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Yolkboy,

I know you mentioned Varamyr's prologue in relationship to weirwood eyes, but I wanted to post a bit more regarding eyes, stars, and bleeding. I hope I am not just repeating something said earlier.

In this entire prologue I have noticed the story of Sansa, and Sandor, Arya, and Sandor, Catelyn as well as Arya. When Varamyr is thinking about his past, those story lines about the above characters are also found in his narrative.

What struck me in his story is about the Melisandre "dragon" Targ and Thistle. I will post below the scene perhaps someone with more insight than I have can interpret it better.

Varamyr could see the weirwood's red eyes staring down at him from the white trunk. The gods are weighing me.

Thistle has returned to him. He leapt out of his skin, and forced himself inside her.

Notice what happens next. She raised her hands to his face. (Actually hers as well). He tried to push them down again, but the hands would not obey, and she was clawing at his eyes. Abomination, he remembered, drowning in blood and pain and madness. When he tried to scream, she spat their tongue out.

The white world turned and fell away. For a mad moment it was a if he were inside the weirwood gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes.

Notice as he is dying we have. A hundred ravens took to the air. A great elk trumpeted, unsettling the children clinging to his back. A sleeping direwolf raised his head to snarl at empty air.

Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood.

When you mentioned the nine weirwood trees beyond the Wall and Mel perhaps making a mistake and seeing rangers weeping blood instead of the weirwood trees. I was reminded of this prologue.

Is it possible we might see a variation of this with Jon later being brought before the nine weirwood trees and Melisandre as the madwoman dancing and weeping tears of blood. Not that I am advocating Jon trying to slip into Melisandre..I hate that idea completely and I do not think GRRM will write it that way but just that hints are laid out in this prologue concerning Melisandre and perhaps Jon and the nine heart trees.

Also mention has been made regarding Melisandre's fingers in earlier chapters being like fire or shooting fire. Parallel to Thistles bloody fingers. Also this is really close in symbol to Catelyn at the RW scratching her face out and loosing her voice. Another mother crying over her dead children and becoming a different type of creature.

To lend a bit of crackpot to the Melisandre being a hidden dragon. I do not recall which episode it was in..the one right after the loss of Blackwater Bay. Stannis and Mel and he is really angry at her and she the actress does this thing with her body. The camera is facing her face, we the viewers are looking right into her face and she does this thing with her body that totally freaked me out. I told my husband and the time..ewww she looks like a serpent or a dragon..I know the show is not canon..but I suspect that D&D have given the actress some clues behind the scene and she made that movement on purpose. When this whole thread came up, that was something that immediately came back to me. She reminded me of a serpent rising. Crackpot but there you go.

Another very astute post Lady Arya's Song, this scene does seem to have several nods to the possible scenario I outlined. Your analysis shows the parallels well, and I'm glad you brought this up. I'm not sure if I can add much with a regards to the parallels, you covered it I think. It's just very strange that Varamyr gets the sensation that he's in the weirwood like that. Maybe there's a touch of 'green' about Varamyr, they are often wargs. The fact that he's watching a woman weeping blood seems like it could be a foreshadowing of the certain possible event. Like you, I don't think this is 'like for like' wrt parallels, I don't think Jon would skinchange into Mel. Perhaps his resurrection would be more likely to concern returning to his own body, if skinchanging is to be involved. As a whole, this prologue is like an idiots guide to second life, it's revelatory and I think the unique information it gives us is there for a reason.

The frozen blood on the fingers is interesting, because we see Varamyr's hand freeze to the floor just after we know 100's of Others are arriving. When there's one Other its quite cold around them, but when en masse they seem to have a collective cold that can freeze/kill humans from a distance. Varamyr shows a good way to survive this is to be inside a wolf, which is nice to know. Also, Mel has an internal heating system that makes her perhaps the only character likely to be able to endure this ice mist. So, both Mel and Jon would have ways of getting closer to an Other army than anyone else. Going back to the frozen fingers and connections, Jon warns Mel that her fingers will freeze from cold later in aDwD.

The "carved red eyes" is interesting because the only other time that phrase comes up is when Theon is infront of a heart tree, and there's an element of 'weirwood sacrifice' about the scene. I'm not sure how a Theon sacrifice would fit into the Azor Ahai prophesies, but there does seem to be a few hints of a connection.

Theon stepped back, and Ramsay and his bride joined hands and knelt before the heart tree, bowing their heads in token of submission. The weirwood’s carved red eyes stared down at them, its great red mouth open as if to laugh. In the branches overhead a raven quorked.

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Fantastic thread, and excellent work yolkboy. Maybe this has been put forward elsewhere, but I now find myself thinking that the stone dragon is a frozen Jon, preserved in the ice cells after his death/semi-death, who will be woken when Mel weeps her kings blood. Not that I want or expect another Un-character in Jon, clearly if this were to happen the magic would be very different from that which brought Un-Beric and Un-Cat. I think a strong case has been made here that something major will go down at the weirwood grove, and I love the connection to this from the Varamyr prologue when he sees the bleeding madwoman through the eyes of a weirwood (makes me think like you that he had greenseeing abilities).

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Love this thread and your work Yolkboy.



This whole theme with the bleeding eyes and the red eyes of the weirwood watching .



Blood flowing in the weirwood's veins. Sacrifices of blood being made in front of heart trees with the blood seeping down through the ground through rocks, and dirt, and stone.



I have started a list of all the characters that I like (Starks,Brienne,) bleed on stone,or dirt or in front of a weirwood tree. The main characters I mean and so many of them have done this! I am thinking its also a clue. I wonder if the Raven pecking Samwell's hand to draw blood was also a blood sacrifice to keep him safe?



On the opposite side of the spectrum..hmm...or not you have Crow's Eye with his "terrible" eye. The Ironborn seem to be afraid of his eye falling upon them. Sorry just thinking aloud here.


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Nice job, Yolkboy! I really like your theory! Regarding the whole topic of Melissandre, this seems like a really feasible plotline. And it would certainly explain the quote from GRRM about Melissandre being the most misunderstood character. Perhaps, this is because we only know part of the story up to this point, and not the entirety?
Regarding the below quote, I am backing us up a bit to respond:

Really likking this theory yolkboy well done.

there are to many connections for it not to be true in some form.
Bit crackpot i know but do you think her name has some sort of meaning

melisandre mel is andre. what does andre mean stand for?? ANother Dragon REborn....

probably nonsence but just thought id throw it in there...

How indeed to interpret this question? That would depend upon whether GRRM utilized an existing name, a la Arya (Sanskrit: Noble, great, truthful), or constructed something new, a la Daenerys: (Made up; Possible Welsh influence).
Clearly somewhere, Melissandre has undergone a name change. Melony does not equate Melissandre. I suspect she took it on when she "became" Melissandre.
The meaning of Melony/Melany: Black; Darkness. Perhaps the symbol of her hidden origins? Melissandre to me sounds like the claiming of a new name, new persona to accompany her glamour, or new self.
Following this line, lets look at the literal and possible meanings of Melissandre;
If he went the existing route: Melissandre: Meaning: Animal Strength. Definitely a very formidable person, and we have seen that in her influence over Stannis, Ghost, and other characters.
If he went a constructed route, there are several he could follow:
Mel: Derivation of a masculine name, such as Melvin: meaning (various languages) : Smooth friend, proud chief, Sword Friend.
Meli: Diminutive of Melissa
Sandra: Derived from the Greek masculine name Alexander. Meaning: Defender
Andre: Meaning: Warrior, Manly, Brave.
Melissa: Meaning: Honey Bee. Origin: Greek, this ties into a Greek myth involving the nymph who discovered honey and its uses. Melissa had many Greek myths, some for the care of the God Zeus, and one connected to Demeter, where a priestess named Melissa would not reveal the hidden knowledge of Demeter, and after being tortured and torn to pieces, was turned into a swarm of bees by Demeter.
“Souls were symbolized by bees and it was Melissa who drew souls down to be born. She was connected with the idea of a periodic regeneration”. Hmmm…..regeneration, such as someone being reanimated ala Beric Dondarrian?
Whether he intended a literal meaning of her name, or a constructed version based on other names, he has given her a very powerful and noble tiltle, and that certainly points to a very powerful destiny.
This is all speculation of course, as we don’t know exactly what GRRM intends to do with her. The largest speculation of course being the Nissa Nissa tie in, as there is a possible link between at least one name derivation, Sword Friend + Defender = Nissa Nissa (being Lightbringer, the sword embodied with a human soul)? Clearly, there is a definite link to Jon, and only time will tell what that will be. But going back to the rubies/Targaryen linkage, I definitely think it has merit, and her name certainly indicates a possible hidden meaning/destiny.
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Since name meanings and associations have come up a few times, I thought I'd offer this which occurred to me a while ago.



In RL the name Melisande is the French version of the name Melisent and also related to the ancient Germanic name Amalasuintha. Both Melisent and Amalasuintha seem to be very close to the name Melusine (although no one seems to be admitting to that due to some negative connotations)



You see, Melusine is the name of a water fairy in pre-Christian European mythology. She was known as a water spirit who was half serpent or fish (that is, a dragon or it's aquatic equivalent-- a mermaid) from the waist down who interacted with humans in full human form on the condition that they never attempt to see her in her true form. In one memorable legend she married Raymond (or alternately Guy de Lusignan) Count of Poitou, who broke the condition and spied on her in her bath. When she discovered the transgression she turned into a dragon and flew away.



So I've been wondering if Melisandre is a sly nod from GRRM to the half dragon woman he has hidden in human form in the household of one of his world's most significant noblemen (as both Raymond and Guy were in their own world and time) How would he expect us to catch it? Because Melusine (in her mermaid guise) is pretty well known these days to coffee drinkers the world over ;)


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Since name meanings and associations have come up a few times, I thought I'd offer this which occurred to me a while ago.

In RL the name Melisande is the French version of the name Melisent and also related to the ancient Germanic name Amalasuintha. Both Melisent and Amalasuintha seem to be very close to the name Melusine (although no one seems to be admitting to that due to some negative connotations)

You see, Melusine is the name of a water fairy in pre-Christian European mythology. She was known as a water spirit who was half serpent or fish (that is, a dragon or it's aquatic equivalent-- a mermaid) from the waist down who interacted with humans in full human form on the condition that they never attempt to see her in her true form. In one memorable legend she married Raymond (or alternately Guy de Lusignan) Count of Poitou, who broke the condition and spied on her in her bath. When she discovered the transgression she turned into a dragon and flew away.

So I've been wondering if Melisandre is a sly nod from GRRM to the half dragon woman he has hidden in human form in the household of one of his world's most significant noblemen (as both Raymond and Guy were in their own world and time) How would he expect us to catch it? Because Melusine (in her mermaid guise) is pretty well known these days to coffee drinkers the world over ;)

Thanks. After reading the White Queen, I also wondered if we should see some connection between Melisandre and Melusina.

However, I don't see anything to suggest that Melisandre is a demi-god, or fairy. I think that her magic has transformed her physical nature, so that her age and youth have been unnaturally prolonged, and she can do without food, but I don't think that's the same thing.

There was a Queen of Jerusalem, too, who was called Melisande. I think that Melony deliberate chose a posh name for herself, to give the impression that she was high-born, in the same way that Bump called himself Varymyr..

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Thanks. After reading the White Queen, I also wondered if we should see some connection between Melisandre and Melusina.

However, I don't see anything to suggest that Melisandre is a demi-god, or fairy. I think that her magic has transformed her physical nature, so that her age and youth have been unnaturally prolonged, and she can do without food, but I don't think that's the same thing.

There was a Queen of Jerusalem, too, who was called Melisande. I think that Melony deliberate chose a posh name for herself, to give the impression that she was high-born, in the same way that Bump called himself Varymyr..

Neither do I... just a hint that she's hiding the dragon side of her nature ;)

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Neither do I... just a hint that she's hiding the dragon side of her nature ;)

She doesn't need food, she doesn't need sleep, can burn an eagle out of the air high above, and could walk around naked at the Wall and melt it. It's more than being a Targ, and more than a glamour, and more than just magicking herself. I don't know what she is, or who she is, but she isn't just a sorceress, at least not by any popular definition, the only popular character I might compare her to is Ignus from Planescape Torment, only with a pretty skin.

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She doesn't need food, she doesn't need sleep, can burn an eagle out of the air high above, and could walk around naked at the Wall and melt it. It's more than being a Targ, and more than a glamour, and more than just magicking herself. I don't know what she is, or who she is, but she isn't just a sorceress, at least not by any popular definition, the only popular character I might compare her to is Ignus from Planescape Torment, only with a pretty skin.

Her magical experiments seem to have transformed her to the point where it's debateable if she's still human. But, I've no doubt she started off as human.

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I'm sorry if this has beem discussed and my eyes glazed over at that point but does anybody think Mel could be the dragon that wakes from stone?

I don't personally think she's the dragon from stone. However, I was just discussing with someone that there's 2 mentions of a dragon/dragons in Asshai. That might be a fit, the first time is in Got and the second time is in Affc but said in the past tense. Obvs Mel was in Asshai before Dragonstone.

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I don't personally think she's the dragon from stone. However, I was just discussing with someone that there's 2 mentions of a dragon/dragons in Asshai. That might be a fit, the first time is in Got and the second time is in Affc but said in the past tense. Obvs Mel was in Asshai before Dragonstone.

That never even crossed my mind with Mels being the "dragon" in Asshai.

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I don't personally think she's the dragon from stone. However, I was just discussing with someone that there's 2 mentions of a dragon/dragons in Asshai. That might be a fit, the first time is in Got and the second time is in Affc but said in the past tense. Obvs Mel was in Asshai before Dragonstone.

I'm just thinking out loud here but maybe Bran's vision of "Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise" is a hint at Mel?
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That never even crossed my mind with Mels being the "dragon" in Asshai.

I'm just thinking out loud here but maybe Bran's vision of "Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise" is a hint at Mel?

Yes exactly - i don't see why that's not possible if s+b=m. My initial interpretation was that Bran was seeing literal dragons in the past, but this has crossed my mind. When Dany's dragons were born there seemed to be a surge in magic, and Quaithe, who came from Asshai, said it was Dany's dragons - so surely they were extinct before. The other mention is in affc

“The tales are not the same,” insisted Armen. “Dragons in Asshai, dragons in Qarth, dragons in Meereen, Dothraki dragons, dragons freeing slaves . . . each telling differs from the last.”

Arya Kiddin' pointed out that, although the character thinks this is BS, all of them are true... yet the Asshai one we cant explain.

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