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S+B=M: Mel - The Red Star Bleeding / Melony Seastar (part 2 has been added on pg.9)


yolkboy

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I read the Op and the first page only. Very impressive, yolkboy. It makes sense - I've always seen similarities between Shiera and Mel and never thought of Mel being her daughter.



Has this been mentioned - I think that the word Melony has a very Westerosi rather than Essosi sounding to it (ironically, unlike Shiera), so there is that. This could show a Westerosi connection.


Adding to your Dothraki connection - in the show, when Drogo and Dany exchange their "Moon and Stars" nicknames, the sounding is similar (something like Shakh me shieraky").



Oh, and another think. Doesn't Melisandre think something along the lines of how she has learned the craft of pleasing men? (I might be making this up, but I don't think so...). Well, this to me speaks of a Lyseny pleasure house...


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  • 1 month later...

Wow! Incredible ideas and theories Yolkboy. I gotta say you have me basically convinced. It all makes a lot of sense and answer a lot of questions about what is the deal with Mel. Let me ask, do you think Bloodraven knows who Mel is? Is he trying to contact her through her visions or through Mormonts raven? You were saying that Shiera left Westeros without telling him, so you think she never told him she was pregnant?


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  • 2 weeks later...

I am not saying the OP is wrong but I think there are important points missing. Why did Serenei (a woman said to be of nobility from Lys) choose a Dothraki name (Shiera) for her daughter? There is also something odd about Mel's visions in her POV.



Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.



This visions seems to describe a raid of pillaging and raping and setting a town afire. Interestingly, the Lhazareen village sacked by Drogo has strong parallels with this vision.



They [The Lhazareen people] were herders of sheep and eaters of vegetables, and Khal Drogo said they belonged south of the river bend. The grass of the Dothraki sea was not meant for sheep.



Dany saw one boy bolt and run for the river. A rider cut him off and turned him, and the others boxed him in, cracking their whips in his face, running him this way and that. One galloped behind him, lashing him across the buttocks until his thighs ran red with blood. Another snared his ankle with a lash and sent him sprawling. Finally, when the boy could only crawl, they grew bored of the sport and put an arrow through his back.



Across the road, a girl no older than Dany was sobbing in a high thin voice as a rider shoved her over a pile of corpses, facedown, and thrust himself inside her. Other riders dismounted to take their turns. That was the sort of deliverance the Dothraki brought the Lamb Men.



The town was afire, black plumes of smoke roiling and tumbling as they rose into a hard blue sky.



There might be another connection that Melony was sold into slavery and the Dothraki enslave people.


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I am not saying the OP is wrong but I think there are important points missing. Why did Serenei (a woman said to be of nobility from Lys) choose a Dothraki name (Shiera) for her daughter? There is also something odd about Mel's visions in her POV.

Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

This visions seems to describe a raid of pillaging and raping and setting a town afire. Interestingly, the Lhazareen village sacked by Drogo has strong parallels with this vision.

They [The Lhazareen people] were herders of sheep and eaters of vegetables, and Khal Drogo said they belonged south of the river bend. The grass of the Dothraki sea was not meant for sheep.

Dany saw one boy bolt and run for the river. A rider cut him off and turned him, and the others boxed him in, cracking their whips in his face, running him this way and that. One galloped behind him, lashing him across the buttocks until his thighs ran red with blood. Another snared his ankle with a lash and sent him sprawling. Finally, when the boy could only crawl, they grew bored of the sport and put an arrow through his back.

Across the road, a girl no older than Dany was sobbing in a high thin voice as a rider shoved her over a pile of corpses, facedown, and thrust himself inside her. Other riders dismounted to take their turns. That was the sort of deliverance the Dothraki brought the Lamb Men.

The town was afire, black plumes of smoke roiling and tumbling as they rose into a hard blue sky.

There might be another connection that Melony was sold into slavery and the Dothraki enslave people.

I don't think (though I could be wrong) the suggestion was the Serenei overtly chose a Dothraki name. Just that there is a hint to the "bleeding star" connection in the Dothraki word shierak. The author giving a hint is subtly different from the author saying Serenei chose a Dothraki name.

Personally I don't see any connection at between those passages. Mel's vision is hard to figure, but the winged shadows certainly seem to indicate dragons which are not present in the Lhazareen passage. And I'm not getting a raping and pillaging vibe so much as some other type of devastation-- think the Doom, Pompeii, Atlantis sinking beneath the waves, etc.

Clearly Melony was sold into slavery, but I don't see anything here to indicate the Dothraki (or the Lhazareen) were in any way involved.

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I don't think (though I could be wrong) the suggestion was the Serenei overtly chose a Dothraki name. Just that there is a hint to the "bleeding star" connection in the Dothraki word shierak. The author giving a hint is subtly different from the author saying Serenei chose a Dothraki name.

Whether Serenei knew Dothraki or not, it is GRRM calling the shots. Mel is a very important part of the story. GRRM has to give a significant cosideration to her. If he chooses her mother's name to be very closer to a Dothraki word that he invented, I think there has to be a connection.

Personally I don't see any connection at between those passages. Mel's vision is hard to figure, but the winged shadows certainly seem to indicate dragons which are not present in the Lhazareen passage. And I'm not getting a raping and pillaging vibe so much as some other type of devastation-- think the Doom, Pompeii, Atlantis sinking beneath the waves, etc.

The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars.

This one is from the Sack of Winterfell. Bran sees the fires and smoke through Summer’s eyes. He mistakes the rising smokes with a great winged snake breathing fire. The smoke and ash clouded his eyes means his perception of the reality is temporarily distorted. When this feeling passes, he sees the fires and smoke rising to the sky and there is nothing supernatural.

Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

Visions distort the reality. We know that prophetic dreams are seldom literal. This structure is quite similar to Summer’s description of the fires and smoke rising from Winterfell. That is why I think this vision refers to sacking of a city.

The town was afire, black plumes of smoke roiling and tumbling as they rose into a hard blue sky.

This is the description of Dany about the Lhazareen village. Note that she is awake and there is no element of metaphor here as in dreams and visions. I think all these three passages are connected through sacking of a city and the smokes rising to the sky afterwards.

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  • 1 month later...

If we believe that Mel is in fact not Shiera's daughter, but Shiera herself, it's conceivable that the whole journey to the Wall with Stannis was her plan all along. With Stannis wrapped around her finger, she could have easily had Davos killed. But maybe she wanted him alive to have Shireen teach him to read (which would explain why that relationship is fleshed out so much in the TV show, since George has told the writers a lot about the ultimate turn-out) so that he would find the letter and make Stannis think he was CHOOSING to go to the Wall. The question then remains of why Mel/Shiera would want to go to the Wall.



She could be distraught and seeking her lover Bloodraven, who left her and her fire magic because his sorcery was of the opposite side of the coin. Could also be that theirs is the song of ice and fire, if we want to take the dualistic ice/fire, R'hllor/Great Other approach that has come up time and time again in the forums.



Anyways, just thinking out loud here. I will flesh this out a bit more hopefully. Thoughts?


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If we believe that Mel is in fact not Shiera's daughter, but Shiera herself, it's conceivable that the whole journey to the Wall with Stannis was her plan all along. With Stannis wrapped around her finger, she could have easily had Davos killed. But maybe she wanted him alive to have Shireen teach him to read (which would explain why that relationship is fleshed out so much in the TV show, since George has told the writers a lot about the ultimate turn-out) so that he would find the letter and make Stannis think he was CHOOSING to go to the Wall. The question then remains of why Mel/Shiera would want to go to the Wall.

She could be distraught and seeking her lover Bloodraven, who left her and her fire magic because his sorcery was of the opposite side of the coin. Could also be that theirs is the song of ice and fire, if we want to take the dualistic ice/fire, R'hllor/Great Other approach that has come up time and time again in the forums.

Anyways, just thinking out loud here. I will flesh this out a bit more hopefully. Thoughts?

Thats interesting......Ill need to think about it. :)

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Also, why would she need Stannis to get to the Wall? Couldn't she just go there?

She wouldnt be accepted if she went alone..... Also for the record if she is the daughter of Bloodraven and Shiera or if she is Shiera herself I dont think she knows BR is living in a cave/tree way north of the wall. Maybe she can feel his power but I doubt she knows he is alive. And now that I have thought about it, there's no way she is Shiera. BR has very unnatural long life but he has made huge sacrifices to live that long. Mel has made no such effort to live forever. She may be older than she looks but as old as BR? No way.....or else what is the point of BR going through such pains if it is so easy to stay alive and look young for 100 years (or however old BR is). Also Shiera has blond hair and 2 different colored eyes. I still agree much more with the OP theory that Mel is Shiera's daughter instead of Shiera herself.

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  • 1 month later...

@yolkboy: I just noticed that when Melisandre sent the shadowbaby to to kill Renly there was a pale mist about...

Renly's battles were already coming apart as the rumors spread from mouth to mouth. The nightfires had burned low, and as the east began to lighten the immense mass of Storm's End emerged like a dream of stone while wisps of pale mist raced across the field, flying from the sun on wings of wind. Morning ghosts, she had heard Old Nan call them once, spirits returning to their graves. And Renly one of them now, gone like his brother Robert, like her own dear Ned.

Catelyn IV, Clash

And we know that Bloodraven could...

Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear.

TMK
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