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S+B=M: Mel - The Red Star Bleeding / Melony Seastar (part 2 has been added on pg.9)


yolkboy

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In terms of "magic," as many have pointed out, it's not a catch-all for personal safety or power, though magic is another path to power.

I think this sets up a parallel to the historical tensions between mysticism, (i.e. religion), and the Maesters, (science), and the "Age of Reason" that the Maesters may want to usher in, given their own antipathy to magic.

Given that the Author has stated that he is a "low magic" fantasy writer, and his own misgivings about the historical path of organized religion, I could envision that the such characters as Mel, The Faith Militant, and others, as well as the themes of prophesy and trying to manipulate it, reflect the dangers of religious fanaticism and zealotry, though science, or "reason" absent a moral code are just as dangerous which the Author also seems to address with the character of "Frankengregor."

I think giving Mel the history of struggle and anguish sets up the path that she is on. She seeks the power of prophesy and sorcery to empower her so that she is never vulnerable again, but because of those reasons, she seems to allow emotion to cloud her vision,(s) and misreads what she sees.

Another Old One:

Many believe, particularly on the Heretics thread, that there may be more to old Nan herself that meets the eye, and that she could be far older than people think, especially if she is the girl seen in Brans vision in the arms of who is speculated to be Dunk.

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Cheers Tommy, interesting about the name.

I realised that Melisandre is a perfect anagram of 'mislearned', which fits her character well sometimes, especially in light of the fact she doesn't seem to know she's got King's blood etc. (if theory is true).

No idea if this is coincidence or not, but hey. It's the only perfect anagram I could find for any of the main characters.

This somehow echoes GRRM's ipse dixit

, round 4:00. Melisandre is the most 'misunderstood' character... or maybe simply mislearned ;)
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In terms of "magic," as many have pointed out, it's not a catch-all for personal safety or power, though magic is another path to power.

I think this sets up a parallel to the historical tensions between mysticism, (i.e. religion), and the Maesters, (science), and the "Age of Reason" that the Maesters may want to usher in, given their own antipathy to magic.

Given that the Author has stated that he is a "low magic" fantasy writer, and his own misgivings about the historical path of organized religion, I could envision that the such characters as Mel, The Faith Militant, and others, as well as the themes of prophesy and trying to manipulate it, reflect the dangers of religious fanaticism and zealotry, though science, or "reason" absent a moral code are just as dangerous which the Author also seems to address with the character of "Frankengregor."

Most Maesters are hostile to magic, but appear to be allies of the Faith.

Lord Hightower is the patron of both organisations; the Grand Maester and High Septon are in close contact; Maester Cressen condemns Stannis' men for abandoning the Seven.

There's not so much a science/religion conflict as a science/magic conflict. And, that may be because the Maesters consider magic to be dangerous and effective, rather than mumbo-jumbo.

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I doubt if Melisandre is glamouring herself (except maybe to the extent of hiding her slave tattoos). She seems to exhibit none of the ailments of old age. I think she has genuinely prolonged her age and youthfulness through magic arts.

Yes, this is entirely possible, and I didn't even mention it in the OP, because i felt the need to explain the possible glamours foremost. It could just be 'dark arts' straightforward magic. The ruby around her neck is what makes me wonder about the glamour. It pulsated and behaves strangely. If it's not for a glamour, i had two possible explanations.

1. It's her 'battery'. Jon says it seems to pulsate in time with the beating of her heart. It keeps her alive somehow.

2. She 'belongs' to someone. When she rubies Mance, it seems Mance becomes a subordinate to her, in some way. So maybe her ruby belongs to someone else somewhere, and she is similarly 'under control'.

“So long as he wears the gem he is bound to me, blood and soul,” the red priestess said (I think it's mentioned she doesnt ever take the gem off)

I think I like the idea of no.2 more. She could either still be a slave of R'hllor, or she has gone rogue with a new master. She doesn't quite fit in with the Red Temple in Volantis - the fiery heart sigil/banner/badge/design isn't seen there at all.

This somehow echoes GRRM's ipse dixit

, round 4:00. Melisandre is the most 'misunderstood' character... or maybe simply mislearned ;)

Hey, ha I like that. It could be the reader who is mislearned about this woman who "even smells of red". I had to get that smells quote in somewhere.

I think giving Mel the history of struggle and anguish sets up the path that she is on. She seeks the power of prophesy and sorcery to empower her so that she is never vulnerable again, but because of those reasons, she seems to allow emotion to cloud her vision,(s) and misreads what she sees.

Yes, despite being so 'other worldly' and nasty often enough, there's a human side to Mel full of suffering, which is clearly evident in her POV. She has to hide her true self continually, her weaknesses, and doesn't seem as comfortable doing so as someone like Varys. If she is very very old, most of her life would probably have revolved around enduring and suffering. Although she shows little in the way of remorse for her actions I don't think there's much question she genuinely believes she does what she does for the greater good.

They need never know how difficult it had been, or how much it had cost her

IRT an earlier discussion about the singular-plural nature of the prophesies, Lady Gwyn posted elsewhere and I thought it was relevant.

I don't think comets and humans are mutually exclusive in the bleeding star interpretation. In fact, it could explain the plural usage of stars in one instance. It could also be an example of prophecy having multiple possible interpretations, just as there are multiple applications of Arthurian themes to characters in ASoIaF.

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Yes, this is entirely possible, and I didn't even mention it in the OP, because i felt the need to explain the possible glamours foremost. It could just be 'dark arts' straightforward magic. The ruby around her neck is what makes me wonder about the glamour. It pulsated and behaves strangely. If it's not for a glamour, i had two possible explanations.

1. It's her 'battery'. Jon says it seems to pulsate in time with the beating of her heart. It keeps her alive somehow.

2. She 'belongs' to someone. When she rubies Mance, it seems Mance becomes a subordinate to her, in some way. So maybe her ruby belongs to someone else somewhere, and she is similarly 'under control'.

I think I like the idea of no.2 more. She could either still be a slave of R'hllor, or she has gone rogue with a new master. She doesn't quite fit in with the Red Temple in Volantis - the fiery heart sigil/banner/badge/design isn't seen there at all.

In a lot of stories, sorcerers are able to prolong their lives/ enhance their strength by putting some part of themselves into an inanimate object (eg Sauron's Ring). Perhaps her ruby serves a similar purpose.
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Mel wants to make shadowbabies with Jon...

...because she thinks they will be super-powered at the Wall, for the fight against 'darkness' (and she's obviously sensed Jon has the strenth that Stannis lost after shadowbabyfest round 1)......

... and this quote suggests that she has tried and failed to make Jon love her, but only as a way to get what she wants. She doesn't care if he loves her.

I wouldn't like to leave book canon and speculate on the TV show with Arya, but it was certainly an interesting scene.

I was just doing a reread and I thought maybe the part right before your quoted part might have some significance to a connection between BR and Mel

ADwD, Part 1 page 443 UK paperback edition:

The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out a hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers.

Jon let out a white breath. "He is not always so..."

"...warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow." Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye growing brighter than all the others. Jon had seen Ghost's eyes blazing red the same way, when they caught the light just right. "Ghost," he called. "To me."

Ghost's behavior always intrigued me and I know the consensus was she was using dark magic but it just seemed off to me, given how powerful direwolves are.

Keeping your theory in mind, this can read a whole lot differently, in my opinion.

Ghost is essentially the direwolf embodiment of BR (albino). The bolded part, about the red eyes, could be a subtle hint at a link between BR and Mel (She has Ghost's(BR's) eyes).

I don't know if it's possible, but could BR have warged Ghost at that moment? That could be the reason for Ghost's odd behavior (looking at Jon as a stranger) and staying so close to Mel, even going so far as to lick her face.

To me it harkens back to BR talking with Bran about only being able to watch, and not interact with family, but if he was warging Ghost in those moments, he would have the opportunity to do so.

I know this could be nothing but I thought it was worth pointing out.

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Sorry for the double post but I had some things I wanted to add and give this thread a bump :)

I've been thinking more about BR warging Ghost during the scene with Jon and Mel and I think it's totally possible.

We know Jon was warged into Ghost at this moment when he said Ghost had never felt so warm. This doesn't mean BR couldn't be warging him at the same moment as this next passage shows (Bran POV)

ADwD, Part One pg 524, UK paperback edition

Before long he was flying around the cavern, weaving through the long stone teeth that hung down from the ceiling, even flapping out over the abyss and swooping down into its cold black depths.

Then he realized he was not alone.

"Someone else was in the raven," he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin. "Some girl. I felt her."

BR explains that it was the spirit of a child long dead, but what this passage really shows us is that more than one warg can inhabit an animal at the same time.

Another couple of passages that I think are relevant from the Varamyr prologue:

pg 3, UK paperback edition

Haggon was weak, afraid of his own power. He died weeping and alone when I ripped his second life from him. Varamyr had devoured his heart himself. He taught me much and more and the last thing I learned from him was the taste of human flesh.

That was as a wolf though.

pg 10

The hunter had died weeping after Varamyr took Greyskin from him, driving him out to claim the beast for his own.

One warg can push out another and take control of the animal. That could be why Ghost looked at Jon as if he was a stranger.

Now, a direwolf should be at the top of the list of animals hard to control (it's stated that regular wolves can be hard to control) , especially one who has bonded to said warg. The only one who could be powerful enough to do this that we've seen so far, in my opinion, is BR.

It's also because of the direwolf power factor that it doesn't make sense, for me, to say that Mel was controlling Ghost. As far as I can recall, she has never demonstrated any sort of animal control magic/capabilities. If there had at least been mention of controlling a smaller/weaker animal on Mel's part, I'd be more open to the idea but we haven't.

Why would BR warg Ghost in that moment, going so far as to pretty much give her a kiss, if not to "reach out" to Mel? And why would he reach out to her if they did not have some sort of connection?

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snip

Interesting thought RL, and plenty of food for thought. I'd personally never considered if Bloodraven had ever warged Ghost. I don't see a reason why that's not possible. The scene where Ghost seems to favour Mel is really strange, and what you've presented is not beyond the realm of possibility. I just wonder if Jon warged Ghost after BR had, whether or not he would have been able to tell someone had been there? If BR was warging Ghost in that scene, it brings about many interesting possibilities that i'm still thinking about, but as we discussed, we'd be venturing too far into conjecture. But with S+B=M in mind there's certainly interesting dynamics to consider between the three of them, all of whom (IMO) are linked by being albinos.

In addition to those you have mentioned, there were two people in Orell's eagle as it burned - Orell (in second life), and Varamyr. It seems that in these scenarios the is a dominant warg who's 'in control', and the other is pushed aside - we saw something similar when Bran entered Hodor. As you mention, one warg can push out another.

Good post RL, plenty of food for thought.

BTW for people following - I'll be adding more to this thread soon, in support of the OP, - a look at sigils and what they tell us, a look for clues in the Dothraki language, and a few other things.

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That's an intriguing idea, but Bloodraven is surely hundreds of miles away from the Wall. Do people have the ability to warg at such a vast distance? Melisandre has given no indication that she is a warg. OTOH, by destroying an eagle with two wargs inside it, she clearly has some ability to control animals through her magic.

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That's an intriguing idea, but Bloodraven is surely hundreds of miles away from the Wall. Do people have the ability to warg at such a vast distance? [...]

Arya's warging of Nymeria in AFFC covers the distance from Braavos all the way to the Riverlands. So distance alone should not be a concern.

(I'm aware that this addresses only a part of your post.)

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That's an intriguing idea, but Bloodraven is surely hundreds of miles away from the Wall. Do people have the ability to warg at such a vast distance? Melisandre has given no indication that she is a warg. OTOH, by destroying an eagle with two wargs inside it, she clearly has some ability to control animals through her magic.

Actually there is a vastly believed theory that Bloodraven is also warging Balerion the Cat in the Red Keep, that is much more farther than the Wall. And Dornishmen's Wife gave another good example, Arya warging Nymeria from Braavos, though it is still not warging per se, it is only a connection in the dream, still it exists.

And Melisandre killing the eagle was due to her fire magic only I guess, I don't think she controlled the eagle in any way, she just burned it. But that is just a speculation on my part.

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That's an intriguing idea, but Bloodraven is surely hundreds of miles away from the Wall. Do people have the ability to warg at such a vast distance? Melisandre has given no indication that she is a warg. OTOH, by destroying an eagle with two wargs inside it, she clearly has some ability to control animals through her magic.

The concensus on the boards is that BR is already warging Mormont's raven. There was a really good thread on this a while back, that presented the case - but just as an example the raven plays a crucial role in getting JS elected as Lord commander. This is why I pointed out in the OP that the raven says 'blood' each time Mel is mentioned.

ETA Arya Kiddin' beat me to the punch.

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The concensus on the boards is that BR is already warging Mormont's crow. There was a really good thread on this a while back, that presented the case - but just as an example the raven plays a crucial role in getting JS elected as Lord commander. This is why I pointed out in the OP that the raven says 'blood' each time Mel is mentioned.

ETA Arya Kiddin' beat me to the punch.

:thumbsup:

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Actually there is a vastly believed theory that Bloodraven is also warging Balerion the Cat in the Red Keep, that is much more farther than the Wall. And Dornishmen's Wife gave another good example, Arya warging Nymeria from Braavos, though it is still not warging per se, it is only a connection in the dream, still it exists.

And Melisandre killing the eagle was due to her fire magic only I guess, I don't think she controlled the eagle in any way, she just burned it. But that is just a speculation on my part.

Yes, I thought she just used her fire magic to set Orell's eagle on fire, didn't think she skinchanged it.

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Interesting thought RL, and plenty of food for thought. I'd personally never considered if Bloodraven had ever warged Ghost. I don't see a reason why that's not possible. The scene where Ghost seems to favour Mel is really strange, and what you've presented is not beyond the realm of possibility. I just wonder if Jon warged Ghost after BR had, whether or not he would have been able to tell someone had been there? If BR was warging Ghost in that scene, it brings about many interesting possibilities that i'm still thinking about, but as we discussed, we'd be venturing too far into conjecture. But with S+B=M in mind there's certainly interesting dynamics to consider between the three of them, all of whom (IMO) are linked by being albinos.

In addition to those you have mentioned, there were two people in Orell's eagle as it burned - Orell (in second life), and Varamyr. It seems that in these scenarios the is a dominant warg who's 'in control', and the other is pushed aside - we saw something similar when Bran entered Hodor. As you mention, one warg can push out another.

Good post RL, plenty of food for thought.

BTW for people following - I'll be adding more to this thread soon, in support of the OP, - a look at sigils and what they tell us, a look for clues in the Dothraki language, and a few other things.

My answer for the bolded part is this passage from the Ghost/Mel scene:

She knelt and scratched Ghost behind his ear. "Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it."

I am not a wolf, he thought. "And how would I do that?"

Jon is reluctant to even acknowledge really that he's a warg, and because he hasn't had any real training, he may not have even been aware if there was someone who had "pushed" him out. Add to that, that since BR is probably the best warg there is, he could be more subtle in taking control.

Of course, if BR is warging Ghost, he could be doing it because he knew Jon would need Mel's help one day (for healing/resurrection) and was having Ghost be overly affectionate towards Mel to encourage Jon to trust her.

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Bonus possible Easter egg:

The first time we see Bloodraven, Dunk is stood next to a row of Melons. (Melony :rolleyes: )

The conversation goes from Bloodraven to Melons. The melons get personified initially, and again later.

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Jon is reluctant to even acknowledge really that he's a warg, and because he hasn't had any real training, he may not have even been aware if there was someone who had "pushed" him out. Add to that, that since BR is probably the best warg there is, he could be more subtle in taking control.

Both Varyamyr and Borroq recognise Jon as being a warg, and are critical that he doesn't embrace this part of his nature.

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S+B=M in the Dothraki Language.

Dothraki language wiki.

Looking at the Dothraki language wiki for clues in support of S+B=M hidden within, seems to have yielded a result. It's based around the Dothraki word for "blood" - qoy.

Qoy is a common element of 'redhead', 'Funeral pyre', and 'omen'. So perhaps qoy is linking these words together for a reason.

Qoy = blood
Qoy = redhead, which evokes Mel
Qoy = funeral pyre

Qoy is part of redhead - we already know qoy means blood, so we can assume it means red also, if we break down redhead. If it means red, we can bet, within 'funeral pyre', it probably means/associated with fire.

So qoy links together Mel, red, fire and blood. Not only are these some of Mel's 'themes', but also invoke House Targaryen - their colour and words. So Mel and House Targaryen are linked by 'qoy' - not that S+B=M suggests she is a true Targ, but that she is a Targ blood descendant, which might be highly significant - King's blood and blood of the dragon.

Next, 'qoy' also means 'omen'. The Dothraki see the Bleeding Star as an ill omen, and it's the most obvious omen in the books. So 'qoy' has now linked Mel to the Bleeding star via 'omen'. The Dothraki for bleeding star? Shierak qiya - containing Shiera. 'Qoy' has taken us through a series of links that have come to associate Mel, Shiera and Bleeding Star together. Qoy also means 'related'.

This seems to be a puzzle, and there may be more to this. I noticed we have the words for 'to live a wooden life', which is synonymous with 'dream' - evoking Bloodraven, and furthering a S+B=M connection.


I'll post what's on the wiki. If anyone can see anything else, do post. Here's the minerals you need :

The name for the Dothraki people and their language derives from the verb "dothralat" ("to ride"), mirroring the importance of horses in the Dothraki culture.

The Dothraki have four different words for "carry," three for "push," three for "pull" and at least eight for "horse," but no word that means "please" or "follow."

The longest word in Dothraki is "athastokhdeveshizaroon," which means "from nonsense."

The words for "related," "weighted net," "eclipse," "dispute," "redhead," "oath," "funeral pyre," "evidence," "omen," "fang" and "harvest moon" all have one element in common: "qoy," the Dothraki word for "blood."

Dothraki for "to dream" – "thirat atthiraride" – literally means "to live a wooden life"; in Dothraki, "wooden" ("ido") is synonymous with "fake."

The word for "pride" – "athjahakar" – is derived from "jahak," the traditional long braid worn by Dothraki warriors ("lajaki").
"Shierak qiya" means bleeding star.

These words are not book canon, but from David petersons press release...

http://dothraki.conlang.org/official-hbo-press-release/

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Rubies as fire and blood:

AGoT, Eddard I:

They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert’s hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.

ACoK, Daenerys IV:

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last
breath murmured a woman’s name....

ACoK, Jon VIII:

Even when Ghost’s teeth closed savagely around the ranger’s calf, somehow Qhorin kept his feet. But in that instant, as he twisted, the opening was there. Jon planted and pivoted. The ranger was leaning away, and for an instant it seemed that Jon’s slash had not touched him. Then a string of red tears appeared across the big man’s throat, bright as a ruby necklace, and the blood gushed out of him, and Qhorin Halfhand fell.

ASoS, Tyrion IV:

As he entered his lord father’s solar a few moments later, he heard a voice saying, “...cherrywood for the scabbards, bound in red leather and ornamented with a row of lion’s-head studs in pure gold. Perhaps with garnets for the eyes...”
“Rubies,” Lord Tywin said. “Garnets lack the fire.”

Mel, her ruby, fire, blood:

ACoK, Prologue:

“Maester,” said Lady Melisandre, her deep voice flavored with the music of the jade Sea. “You ought take more care.” As ever, she wore red head to heel, a long loose gown of flowing silk as bright as fire, with dagged sleeves and deep slashes in the bodice that showed glimpses of a darker bloodred fabric beneath. Around her throat was a red gold choker tighter than any maester’s chain, ornamented with a single great ruby.

His hands were shaking, but he made himself be strong. A maester of the Citadel must not be afraid. The wine was sour on his tongue. He let the empty cup drop from his fingers to shatter on the floor. “He does have power here, my lord,” the woman said. “And fire cleanses.” At her throat, the ruby shimmered redly.

ACoK, Davos I:

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire.

ASoS, Davos II:

Melisandre had been much in his thoughts as Shayala’s Dance made her way across Blackwater Bay and through the Gullet, tacking against perverse contrary winds. The great fire that burned atop the Sharp Point watchtower at the end of Massey’s Hook reminded him of the ruby she wore at her throat, and when the world turned red at dawn and sunset the drifting clouds turned the same color as the silks and satins of her rustling gowns.

ASoS, Davos IV:

“When the fires speak more plainly, so shall I. There is truth in the flames, but it is not always
easy to see.” The great ruby at her throat drank fire from the glow of the brazier. “Give me the boy, Your Grace. It is the surer way. The better way. Give me the boy and I shall wake the stone dragon.”

"The great ruby at her throat drank fire ..." reminds me of the dragon origin story from AGoT, Daenerys III:

“Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame.

So, rubies --> Fire and Blood --> House Targaryen --> dragons, both literal and figurative. Maybe it's just a phrase GRRM likes to use, but there is a lot of circumstantial evidence here already wrt to Mel being the daughter of Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar.

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