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Misogyny argument - Catch 22


Mladen

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did not know that, this imp is in the US. Pardon my centralist american thinking :blushing:

guess i shoulda saw it tho, now that I think about it. Movies like Snatch (seriously no pun intended, they use the word in a couple scenes i think?) and other brit cast movies, but those are movie scripts and did not take them to be a real state of affairs. Not saying it was GRRM's fault or anything just I guess making a parrellel to the HeyDay of Chappel's Show and everyone going around yellin "I'm Rick James Bitch!"

Sorry if I got off topic there

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I don't think she despises her own gender she despises weak women there is a difference.

Perhaps, but I got a feeling that Cersei is so frustrated with being a woman, that when she grabs power, she behaves like a man, even in her relationship with Taena... I could be wrong, of course...

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My annoyance comes when a poster writes off any criticism of a female character as sexist-based, unless that female character is going up against a more popular female character (again, see Arianne and Dany). Then she's, apparently, fair game.

I think the misogyny and sexism accusations also come up when comparing the likeability of female characters. I like Arya because she is a very entertaining, interesting and complex character. Arya's story is pretty dark but GRRM lightens it up a bit with Arya's funny take on different situations (Hot Pie looked like Hot Pie!). I like characters that confront their problems head on and try to find solutions to their problems. I like the fighters. Arya trying to get to Jon on the wall and her story from rebel to child soldier to apprentice assassin is one of the best things about the series.

On the other hand I am indifferent to Sansa. I don't find the character or her story interesting and she mostly works as a narrator for me by giving insight into the happenings at KL. Now that she is in the Vale her chapters are even more boring and I could not care less about LF who I think is over rated as a bad guy.

But people who prefer Arya over Sansa have been accused of being sexist because Arya is more of a Tomboy, warrior type female character while Sansa is the girly girl. And I think that's a load of BS. I find Brienne boring even though she's a soldier.

Readers can have valid reasons for not liking Cersei, Sansa, Catelyn, Arya and Dany and it's not for other readers to explain why someone else does not like a specific character.

I love Dany and she is one of my favorite characters, but I am not going to go around throwing the misogyny and sexism accusations just because someone else does not like her. There are valid reasons to not like any character without bringing gender into it and ADwD was a low point in Dany's arc where her character stagnated a bit. I think that was a rough patch for her and she will do better in the next book.

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I find it pretty sexist to assume someone doesnt like a female character because they are female.

:agree:

I liked your whole post, but that part in particular. Anyways, most of the times, when someone use that as their main argument I just move on

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Perhaps, but I got a feeling that Cersei is so frustrated with being a woman, that when she grabs power, she behaves like a man, even in her relationship with Taena... I could be wrong, of course...

I really think Cersei is of that idiotic perception (along with some readers) that to be a strong woman you need to have manlike-qualities. Nymeria, Osha, Ygritte, Asha while being really awesome and what not are dwarfed strength wise by characters like Sansa, and Volantis mobster lady (forgot her name), who get through real life situations without using a throwing axe.

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Perhaps, but I got a feeling that Cersei is so frustrated with being a woman, that when she grabs power, she behaves like a man, even in her relationship with Taena... I could be wrong, of course...

Are you saying men are paranoid, and seeing enemies where none exsist ?

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Perhaps, but I got a feeling that Cersei is so frustrated with being a woman, that when she grabs power, she behaves like a man, even in her relationship with Taena... I could be wrong, of course...

This is because all shes known during her lifetime is that being a high born male is synonymous with power. Shes never seen an example of a "powerful" woman so she tries to mimic male behavior, because in her subconscious that makes her powerful and that is what she is desperate for

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I think the misogyny and sexism accusations also come up when comparing the likeability of female characters. I like Arya because she is a very entertaining, interesting and complex character. Arya's story is pretty dark but GRRM lightens it up a bit with Arya's funny take on different situations (Hot Pie looked like Hot Pie!). I like characters that confront their problems head on and try to find solutions to their problems. I like the fighters. Arya trying to get to Jon on the wall and her story from rebel to child soldier to apprentice assassin is one of the best things about the series.

On the other hand I am indifferent to Sansa. I don't find the character or her story interesting and she mostly works as a narrator for me by giving insight into the happenings at KL. Now that she is in the Vale her chapters are even more boring and I could not care less about LF who I think is over rated as a bad guy.

But people who prefer Arya over Sansa have been accused of being sexist because Arya is more of a Tomboy, warrior type female character while Sansa is the girly girl. And I think that's a load of BS. I find Brienne boring even though she's a soldier.

Readers can have valid reasons for not liking Cersei, Sansa, Catelyn, Arya and Dany and it's not for other readers to explain why someone else does not like a specific character.

I love Dany and she is one of my favorite characters, but I am not going to go around throwing the misogyny and sexism accusations just because someone else does not like her. There are valid reasons to not like any character without bringing gender into it and ADwD was a low point in Dany's arc where her character stagnated a bit. I think that was a rough patch for her and she will do better in the next book.

:agree:
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:agree:

I liked your whole post, but that part in particular. Anyways, most of the times, when someone use that as their main argument I just move on

franko99, it's been ages... Good to see you again :)...And I agree, moving on is the best course of action...

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I'm probably a weird person, but the fact that Dany has sex when she wants is a plus for me lol.

Well yeah. It shows that Dany is just like everyone else. She has needs. In fact, shes rather sexual and we all know someone in real life like that. (YOU might be one!) They got needs and gotta satisfy them. Besides, Dany isnt that irresponsible with it either. Its Daario's status that makes people in-universe give her the side-eye. Hes a sellsword. Shes a queen. Thats why. Not because "omg female is having sex! aghhhh!" The only thing that was irresponsible was allowing Daario to gloat about it. Now all of Meereen knows because Daario couldnt keep his trap shut.

Cersei hates women and hates being one too. I thought that was obvious...

Yes. Cersei really does have a beef with fellow owners of the vag. She certainly doesnt like the fact she has one either. She uses it but she dont like having one. If she could trade it for a D, she would in a heartbeat. But Cersei got a taste of that medicine in a huge way. I think perhaps this is where her character development lies.

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This is because all shes known during her lifetime is that being a high born male is synonymous with power. Shes never seen an example of a "powerful" woman so she tries to mimic male behavior, because in her subconscious that makes her powerful and that is what she is desperate for

All of that is true, but that still doesn't change the fact she hates women

Also, I would like to discuss Martin's equalization of the genders on some deep humane level. I feel like Martin, by using POVs, surpassed the gender differences in his writings. His female characters are equally troubled as male, they can be both kind and vicious, strong and weak as any man. I mean, does this type of writing leave no place for some misogynistic debate?

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That just makes it a bigger plus for me, because it shows Dany doesn't discriminate against status.

Well that's kinda like saying Robert respected the peasantry because he slept with a large amount of whores.

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Well that's kinda like saying Robert respected the peasantry because he slept with a large amount of whores.

or victarion
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All of that is true, but that still doesn't change the fact she hates women

Also, I would like to discuss Martin's equalization of the genders on some deep humane level. I feel like Martin, by using POVs, surpassed the gender differences in his writings. His female characters are equally troubled as male, they can be both kind and vicious, strong and weak as any man. I mean, does this type of writing leave no place for some misogynistic debate?

I think women these days dont know what true misogyny is.

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