Jump to content

Misogyny argument - Catch 22


Mladen

Recommended Posts

I'm not really sure I understand what this thread is. Presuming misogyny as a default for disliking female characters is wrong, and on the flip side, misogyny does exist? So we should be more careful and precise when throwing around the M word, making sure it's used only when critiquing truly misogynist statements? If that's the message here, isn't this just common sense?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not really sure I understand what this thread is. Presuming misogyny as a default for disliking female characters is wrong, and on the flip side, misogyny does exist? So we should be more careful and precise when throwing around the M word, making sure it's used only when critiquing truly misogynist statements? If that's the message here, isn't this just common sense?

Are you seriously asking people to use common sense while debating on the internet?!?!? :eek:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm glad to see that others feel this way. I haven't been here actively for very long, and since I have it's felt like disliking any character, especially female, just draws a lot of unjust accusations. In all honesty it has also caused me to dislike certain characters even more when the only defense of that character is that if you dislike them, then you dislike and look down at all women. This thread restores some forum faith.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All of that is true, but that still doesn't change the fact she hates women

Also, I would like to discuss Martin's equalization of the genders on some deep humane level. I feel like Martin, by using POVs, surpassed the gender differences in his writings. His female characters are equally troubled as male, they can be both kind and vicious, strong and weak as any man. I mean, does this type of writing leave no place for some misogynistic debate?

Well..yeah.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm glad to see that others feel this way. I haven't been here actively for very long, and since I have it's felt like disliking any character, especially female, just draws a lot of unjust accusations. In all honesty it has also caused me to dislike certain characters even more when the only defense of that character is that if you dislike them, then you dislike and look down at all women. This thread restores some forum faith.

I once felt like you. Then I started participating in Shae, Tysha, Cersei, Tyrion, Sansa, and of course, Cat discussions. I don't ever bring up the M word though, even when it would be unequivocally justified (and, oh boy, there are such times). It's sort of a shitty thing to do on here because it completely shuts down civility and any semblance of order when it's brought up. There are much better ways to communicate that something's a troubling assertion, imo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nah... I'm a Dany hater, and I've never been accused of misogyny.

Both things happen. There are a few misogynists who hate Dany because she sleeps with Daario or whatever. But there are a lot of genuine reasons to dislike her.

And there are those who throw the misogyny card at anyone, but also those who correctly point out how some people have double standards when they compare Dany to, let's say, good king bob.

Anyway, I guess feminists are the ones who are really introducing a bias here. It's justified to a certain extent, since we live in a patriarchal society and it's reflected on Martin's work (though I believe he tries his best to avoid it). Unfortunately, both 'girls in power' (Cersei and Dany) turned out to be crazy. It's not our fault, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find this post troubling and misogynistic.

hey brah! :love:

Hahahahaha. Hey Bumps, I know i've been a ghost but I promise I'm like, still a person. Breaking bad has been fucking amazing these last couple episodes btw. I got on during a break from studying and this was literally the first thing I saw. This was pretty much my reaction. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wWiKKrt6BOo/UYHYbSC2K3I/AAAAAAAAEIc/8OO_t39jwGI/s1600/Nathan-Fillion-Loss-For-Words-Reaction-Gif.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So we should be more careful and precise when throwing around the M word, making sure it's used only when critiquing truly misogynist statements? If that's the message here, isn't this just common sense?

Are you seriously asking people to use common sense while debating on the internet?!?!? :eek:

Common sense and caution about inflammatory language on an Internet message board? What is this deviltry? :D

I'm pretty sure I've used the word "misogynistic" in reference to the books themselves a few times (don't even get me started on the Dany-falls-in-love-with-her-rapist storyline in AGOT), but that's not really what this thread is discussing, so...

I imagine it is pretty tempting to play the sexism/misogyny card to shut down preemptively any criticism of one's favourite female character...and I have seen it used to that end, on these boards and elsewhere. I also agree that some criticism of female characters seems to have some troubling dimensions that could be explained by underlying sexist attitudes or stereotypes, especially when certain female characters are pilloried for doing X, while male characters are given a pass for doing the exact same thing.

Of course, having been on the receiving end of 1) accusations of misogyny because I supposedly dislike character X and 2) assumptions that because I criticize character X, I must dislike X, and that therefore because I so obviously dislike character X, my criticism of X character is invalid, I can tell you that #2 is infinitely more infuriating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps, but I got a feeling that Cersei is so frustrated with being a woman, that when she grabs power, she behaves like a man, even in her relationship with Taena... I could be wrong, of course...

Cersei behaves like Cersei. I don't get what "behaves like a man" vs "behave like a woman" could even mean. As for Taena, she wants to feel the same things she thought Robert felt when he abused her. Which, in her mind, means penetration, and is proven wrong.

Yea Cersei hates being a woman, "I should wear the armour and you the gown"

I don't know. She hates the place society has for women. Or maybe more accurately, the place she was educated for, and accepted, before realizing the downsides. Characters like Asha or Sarella, for instance, dislike that as well, but steer their lives in different paths. The thing is, Cersei loves the perks that come from being a Queen (which she couldn't possibly access if she was really wearing the armour), but she rightfully hates the cost associated to such perks.

I'm not really sure I understand what this thread is. Presuming misogyny as a default for disliking female characters is wrong, and on the flip side, misogyny does exist? So we should be more careful and precise when throwing around the M word, making sure it's used only when critiquing truly misogynist statements? If that's the message here, isn't this just common sense?

:agree:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hai bamfy!

I like how the books write lady characters just like the dudes. No holding the punches, just people being people.

GRRM had a really good/succinct quote about that. LIke some talk show host was like "hey guy! you write women really well, whats up with that?" and he replied "well I always thought women are people too" or something to that effect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nah... I'm a Dany hater, and I've never been accused of misogyny.

Both things happen. There are a few misogynists who hate Dany because she sleeps with Daario or whatever. But there are a lot of genuine reasons to dislike her.

And there are those who throw the misogyny card at anyone, but also those who correctly point out how some people have double standards when they compare Dany to, let's say, good king bob.

Anyway, I guess feminists are the ones who are really introducing a bias here. It's justified to a certain extent, since we live in a patriarchal society and it's reflected on Martin's work (though I believe he tries his best to avoid it). Unfortunately, both 'girls in power' (Cersei and Dany) turned out to be crazy. It's not our fault, though.

I am a feminist but I dont throw around the sexism card, I reject the notion of many sexism statements posted on here, associating feminism with the bra burning crazed wing nuts is quite frankly idiotic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...