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Misogyny argument - Catch 22


Mladen

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Nah... I'm a Dany hater, and I've never been accused of misogyny.

Both things happen. There are a few misogynists who hate Dany because she sleeps with Daario or whatever. But there are a lot of genuine reasons to dislike her.

And there are those who throw the misogyny card at anyone, but also those who correctly point out how some people have double standards when they compare Dany to, let's say, good king bob.

Anyway, I guess feminists are the ones who are really introducing a bias here. It's justified to a certain extent, since we live in a patriarchal society and it's reflected on Martin's work (though I believe he tries his best to avoid it). Unfortunately, both 'girls in power' (Cersei and Dany) turned out to be crazy. It's not our fault, though.

Feminism has nothing to do with it.....
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GRRM had a really good/succinct quote about that. LIke some talk show host was like "hey guy! you write women really well, whats up with that?" and he replied "well I always thought women are people too" or something to that effect.

Yeah. I posted it earlier but here you go again. I think more people should keep that in mind. Just saiyan. Super saiyan. ;)

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I find the idea that GRRM is an abnormally good male writer of female characters to be ridiculous. Sansa is basically your prototypical girly girl in a medieval setting, Cersei is the prototypical evil queen, Arya was a prototypical rebel princess before she turned evil in aFFC, and Brienne is a two dimensional character; she is even less evil than Ned and the only original addition to the warrior princess char is making her ugly. The only really good* (as in well written) major female characters are Catelyn (a masterpiece of literature IMO) and Dany, who falls in love with her rapist!

*Some are okay

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I find the idea that GRRM is an abnormally good male writer of female characters to be ridiculous. Sansa is basically your prototypical girly girl in a medieval setting, Cersei is the prototypical evil queen, Arya was a prototypical rebel princess before she turned evil in aFFC, and Brienne is a two dimensional character; she is even less evil than Ned and the only original addition to the warrior princess char is making her ugly. The only really good* (as in well written) major female characters are Catelyn (a masterpiece of literature IMO) and Dany, who falls in love with her rapist!

*Some are okay

Anyone who thinks that GRRM's female characters are masterworks of literary characterization needs to read more books. :D

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There is definite douchebaggerey on the forums regarding this misogymy arguments. I even being a guy, love all the female characters in the series the most. But if someone dislikes a certain character for her flaws, I can totally respect that person. The most I can do is inquire about/ politely ask for the dislike about the character. But to name that person a misogynist is poor generalization to the extreme. And yes it works both ways actually. If you defend controversial female characters (like Cat or Cersei), you are labelled a feminist.

People seriously need to grow up and learn when a fact and when an opinion is presented. A fact (or for that matter, a theory) can be argued, but you cannot argue about validity of opinions. I request all the forum users to start respecting others' opinions here. If you want yourself to be voiced properly (or want to stand out), condescension is not the way. Keep it polite, keep it civil. :grouphug:

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If you step on tiptoes around a female character - or a real life woman, come to that - for fear your criticism might come over as sexist then you have already jumped into the trap.

The condescension trap of not considering a female character or a RL woman worth of being taken seriously and being criticized on the same importance level like any male.

Yes, I myself step into this trap often enough. But it begins with being more forgiving if a job is done poorly by a woman. And it ends with the self fulfilling prophecy that even women simply expect less from other women than from men.

When it comes to our favorite books I am indeed overly forgiving towards characters like Cat, Cersei or Dany because I cannot help being hugely interested in them AND because I can relate to them. For example Cat's mistakes would have been my mistakes. I may see her failures clearly but I am very quick in reinterpreting them in a favorable way.

But if I cannot relate to a female character the fact of being female does not push my opinion of her. Sansa will have to show some initiative in order to capture me and Melisandre, well, I hate religious fundamentalists male or female. Would it be sexist to vocalize my criticism here? For sure not, on the contrary it would be sexist to swallow my opinion for being "protective" of a female character. This well meaning attitude would mean not taking that character seriously.

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But people who prefer Arya over Sansa have been accused of being sexist because Arya is more of a Tomboy, warrior type female character while Sansa is the girly girl. And I think that's a load of BS.

I have appreciated the contrasting tropes that are Arya and Sansa. Arya is clearly a soccer girl, feisty and competitive, where Sansa is a ballerina, quiet, graceful and classically feminine. I just don't see how liking Arya's character more (which I do) would make you a misogynist.
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Could you give a percentage?

What's misogynist about Wheel of Time?

A percentage? No. Just trust me it is a lot slower. Its misogynistic because Jordan stereotypes all women as either or a combination of physical bullies, manipulative liars, incompetent with anger problems, misandristic, unreasonable and disregardful of anyone elses position or status. Also for the One Power there are 2 halves, a male side which is used by dominating Saidin, and the female half which is used when submitting(women are supposed to be subservient)Not to mention the prophecized hero known as The Dragon HAS to be a male. No female savior can exist. I think people praise Martin's writing because a lot of famous books like WoT, Dune or supposedly LoTRs had badly written women or were misogynistic.
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I think people praise Martin's writing because a lot of famous books like WoT, Dune or supposedly LoTRs had badly written women or were misogynistic.

Haven't read Dune either, but LoTR's women I don't think were badly written; they were all just minor characters.

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It's usually an aggregate problem. It is pretty obvious that there is systematic prejudice against women; in life and probably amongst fans of these books. These prejudices stem from social norns, structures and certainly a few truly mysogenous people. The mistake that a lot of people make is to use the group observations to try to explain an individual case (i.e there excists a prejudice gainst woment, there for you who voice a criticism must be a part of it). It never works like that. You can collect data from a lot of individuals and make correct observations of that group, but you can never thake the group data and use it to predict the attitude, or whatever you were measuring, of an individual.

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