Zadok Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 I couldn't say; I've never watched it. But while the analogy may be true on the surface, I sincerely doubt that the show's writers handle the characters with the same depth and emotion that Goodkind does. In short, it's probably just another silly fantasy, not a story about realistic people moving through a perhaps less realistic world. Mystar was unwilling to deconstruct and explain the chicken that is not a chicken scene for us, maybe you could take a stab at it. Why a chicken as evil incarnate? Did Terry have a bad experience at KFC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray the Enforcer Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 I am a shrimp in need of love. :cry: And if that whore of a Merican footie fan (how many tarts did you screw during Group Play?!) can't help me in this quest, I'll just have to kick him in the jaw. Remember, Yank, I *do* have the fastest predatorial kick in the animal kindom. Your mandibles don't stand a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry. Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 OK, camarón, your proxy Polish self should seek out a fine German langosta for sweet crustacean loving...maybe Terri will devote part of his next book to exploring the noble nature of crustaceans, if they are indeed above that of chickens that are not chickens but instead are evil manifest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray the Enforcer Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 OK, camarón, your proxy Polish self should seek out a fine German langosta for sweet crustacean loving...maybe Terri will devote part of his next book to exploring the noble nature of crustaceans, if they are indeed above that of chickens that are not chickens but instead are evil manifest Scheisse. Die deutsche Krabben kann so verdammten langweilig sein. Und ungehoerig verliebt mit Heidegger. Tja. Brauche ich ein Urlaub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 I couldn't say; I've never watched it. But while the analogy may be true on the surface, I sincerely doubt that the show's writers handle the characters with the same depth and emotion that Goodkind does. In short, it's probably just another silly fantasy, not a story about realistic people moving through a perhaps less realistic world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diabloblanco18 Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Mystar was unwilling to deconstruct and explain the chicken that is not a chicken scene for us, maybe you could take a stab at it. Why a chicken as evil incarnate? Did Terry have a bad experience at KFC? Hissing, hackles lifting, the chicken's head rose. Kahlan pulled back. Its claws digging into stiff dead flesh, the chicken slowly turned to face her. It cocked its head, making its comb flop, its wattles sway. "Shoo," Kahlan heard herself whisper. There wasn't enough light, and besides, the side of its beak was covered with gore, so she couldn't tell if it had the dark spot, But she didn't need to see it. "Dear spirits, help me," she prayed under her breath. The bird let out a slow chicken cackle. It sounded like a chicken, but in her heart she knew it wasn't. In that instant, she completely understood the concept of a chicken that was not a chicken. This looked like a chicken, like most of the Mud People's chickens. But this was no chicken. This was evil manifest. Why a chicken? To tell the truth, I have no idea why he would choose such an animal as a manifestation of evil. But then, isn't that the whole point? Evil often needs no reasons for the choices it makes, or leads people to make, and the chime in Soul of the Fire is no exception. And just as it needs no reasons, evil also disdains the use of reasoning as well. Why stand on the side of truth and logic when you can simply exploit the Wizard's First Rule? People will believe lies as readily as they will truth; more so if the lies appeal to them. Consider the real-world example of Communism. It failed in Russia, it is slowly being excised in China, and all the puppet states of the former Soviet Union are dying third-world economies. Yet people still think it can work, that they can have the utopia they want. And who is to say it isn't so? All truth is relative in the eyes of collectivist, after all. Also, perhaps the chime's choice of vessel was dictated by the trappings of the world Goodkind had created. Despite the obvious fact that his novels are not, given their focus, truly fantasy, he does still hold to a reasonable standard of internal consistency. The chimes are shown to possess people as well, one would say, so why not have a human person confront Kahlan as a puppet of evil, a merchant of chaos? The answer to that is that the chimes seemed to only be able to influence people's perception of reality, usually to trick them to their deaths. I doubt that many people could be similarly induced to devour a corpse and then cackle evilly at Kahlan. It wouldn't be very realistic, I don't think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 ". Despite the obvious fact that his novels are not, given their focus, truly fantasy, he does still hold to a reasonable standard of internal consistency" Not truly fantasy? They are fantasy at its worst, despite Badkind's pretensions to the contrary. The chicken seen is unintentional comedy at best and incomprehensible shite at worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray the Enforcer Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 I had to import this from a thread on Werner Herzog. A quote by the director: [On the ending of Stroszek (1977):] "When I saw the dancing chicken, I knew I would create a grand metaphor -- for what, I don't know." NOW I know who should be directing the SoT movies!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted June 25, 2006 Author Share Posted June 25, 2006 Evil often needs no reasons for the choices it makes, or leads people to make, An interesting viewpoint. Whilst mindless, raging evil could be argued to exist, say in a mob mentality, history overwhelming shows that evil requires a focus or rationale for it to spread. Hitler's evil required a focus in gaining power through blaming the ills of society on already distrusted minorities (Jews, gypsies, homosexuals etc) and then an outlet through the use of military power to procure a preconceived notion of living space in the east. This evil was the result of (at least initially) carefully considered self-rationalising. Stalin's evil of callousness could also be said to exist in the same manner. his novels are not, given their focus, truly fantasy This argument holds no water. They are published by a fantasy publisher, marketed to fantasy fans and stocked in the fantasy section of bookshops. If Goodkind wanted to get the message of Objectivism across to a mass audience, he could have chosen another genre to do it in, set in the real world which a larger audience could relate to directly. Note that Peter F. Hamilton's SF novels which focus strongly on Capitalism as the only way of building an interstellar society are still SF, and Mieville's fantasy novels which explore Socialism are still fantasy novels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray the Enforcer Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 This argument holds no water. They are published by a fantasy publisher, marketed to fantasy fans and stocked in the fantasy section of bookshops. If Goodkind wanted to get the message of Objectivism across to a mass audience, he could have chosen another genre to do it in, set in the real world which a larger audience could relate to directly. Note that Peter F. Hamilton's SF novels which focus strongly on Capitalism as the only way of building an interstellar society are still SF, and Mieville's fantasy novels which explore Socialism are still fantasy novels. Agreed. Although genre is such a fluid (and debatable) tag, the argument that one series cannot possibly be fantasy because of its so-called focus is flawed. In addition to the ones Wert mentioned, I submit that Ursula K. LeGuin (who, depending on the novel) focused intensely on Anarchism and Gender (Dispossessed and Left Hand of Darkness, respectively), yet one would not hesitate to categorize her works as speculative fiction. And she doesn't even invoke 1) a magic sword 2) a talking dragon or 3) sorcerers in her works. Not to mention Bakker, who lards his narratives with enough pointed philosophical conundrums to choke a Zorse. Goodkind's works fall squarely into the Fantasy camp, despite his lofty ambitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diabloblanco18 Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Well, fuck. It's hard enough trying to come up with pseudo-arguments in favor of Goodkind's writing in the first place; when people shoot back with actual ones, everything falls apart. Granted, I probably could come up with absurd and yet logically consistent counter-arguments until I dropped, but it's really freakin' tough. Back to (mostly) lurking and giggling uncontrollably at these topics, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Gods I love it when you guys get all specific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray the Enforcer Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Well, fuck. It's hard enough trying to come up with pseudo-arguments in favor of Goodkind's writing in the first place; when people shoot back with actual ones, everything falls apart. Granted, I probably could come up with absurd and yet logically consistent counter-arguments until I dropped, but it's really freakin' tough. Back to (mostly) lurking and giggling uncontrollably at these topics, I suppose. No way!! It's good! It's good!! (and we appreciate the effort. I actually like getting a good musing or two in between the slagging. Brava.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walpurgisborn Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Oh shrimp now I know what I lying vessel of evil you are. No nobl spirit have you, for you have lied. Or maybe in your ignornce you didn't know that the Earthsea trilogy og LeGuin has Sorcerers and Talking Dragoons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry. Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Scheisse. Die deutsche Krabben kann so verdammten langweilig sein. Und ungehoerig verliebt mit Heidegger. Tja. Brauche ich ein Urlaub. Ha! I had thought about replying back in German, but my German is way too rusty for that (11 years of disuse and only 3 semesters of college German and a crash course on how to read Hitler's earliest speeches for a grad research project I did :sick:), but I will admit it was a nice touch to add Heidegger and Brauche into a rant about the damned German crabs (and if I misunderstood any of that, remember that I did not use Babelfish, only my faulty memory of the language) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Isn't brauchen "to need" in that sentence? Speaking of that, Freud also lived with lobster until he met his wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brys Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 but a noble beast that possesses more humanity than her former master So true - it responds to flattery and vanity. What better evidence of the nobility of the human/dragon spirit is their? Does Goodkind actually have a sense of black humour? He says he writes novels about the nobility of the human spirit, but he has shown his main character as a genocidal maniac, an abuser of young girls and a pervert. Ironically, his novels are about the nobility of the human spirit, or lack thereof. Good job, diablo. Sounded like a real Goodkind fan. The only problem was that it was a little too logical and there weren't enough spelling and grammatical mistakes, or even enough insults. But otherwise, it was it was a great post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosicus Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Diablo totally had me convinced. Well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alarich Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Scheisse. Die deutsche Krabben kann so verdammten langweilig sein. Und ungehoerig verliebt mit Heidegger. Tja. Brauche ich ein Urlaub. This is great. It just makes enough sense to be very funny And congrats to the use of "ungehörig". Chapeau! Btw. - wich words were too hard in my reply? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BranTheBuilder Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 I doubt that many people could be similarly induced to devour a corpse and then cackle evilly at Kahlan. It wouldn't be very realistic, I don't think. Wow, diabloblanco18 you are good! Far more coherant and persuasive than Mystar and his ilk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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