R+L = J v 62

[Mladen]

Considering that many people believe that aegon is fake, what about Jon then why should people believe him to be Targaryen just be because some say that he may possible be Targaryen.

some people says that Dany would consider Aegon as fake what about Jon is possible that Jon will also get the fake title from her as Aegon would.

Would she consider Jon and Aegon as threat to the throne but what I find it interesting could be possible that Aegon is third head forcast to next Dance of Dragons instead having two sister there would be instead two brothers and their niece.

We have Howland Reed, we have possibly Ashara Dayne, there is also that crown of old KitN thing, Winterfell crypts, possible wills. IF Martin wants Jon to be King of 7 Kingdoms, he will find the way for people to accept it... But, again that;s a big IF.

You forget the blue flower in wall of ice vision with sweetness surrounding it. Dany would be much lenient of accepting Jon as nephew, who doesn't even want Throne, than the one who will fight her

IMO, three-headed dragon is one person... You know, dragon is singular.

[brAnthelAstgreenseer]

Nowhere next to the same size, sorry.

Both are fan theories and both have the possibility of coming true equally .Mathematically speaking both have equal chances of being true or otherwise.

[Alia of the knife]

Considering that many people believe that aegon is fake, what about Jon then why should people believe him to be Targaryen just be because some say that he may possible be Targaryen.

some people says that Dany would consider Aegon as fake what about Jon is possible that Jon will also get the fake title from her as Aegon would.

Would she consider Jon and Aegon as threat to the throne but what I find it interesting could be possible that Aegon is third head forcast to next Dance of Dragons instead having brother and sister there would be instead two brothers and their niece.

Agree with Ygrain and Mladen.

A couple of things to consider:

1). If Aegon were proved to be real, then what happens is that Jon will just fulfill the role to Aegon he was born for, which is to help usher in his reign.

2). I have a feeling Danys dragons will choose who is real or not, bolstering any claim for Jon.

3). Illryios and Varys role are curious, and point to conspiracy.

(Have we ever gotten a last name for Varys)?

[Ygrain]

Both are fan theories and both have the possibility of coming true equally .Mathematically speaking both have equal chances of being true or otherwise.

We're not dealing here with maths but literature. R+L is based on a thorough analysis of multiple aspects and clues. There is not so much material for (f)Aegon, though what little we do have points towards him being a fake.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

We're not dealing here with maths but literature. R+L is based on a thorough analysis of multiple aspects and clues. There is not so much material for (f)Aegon, though what little we do have points towards him being a fake.

:agree:

I'd add to this that if you were talking math, it would be a most likely discussion of the odds of either theory being correct. When odds-makers lay odds on something, they don't simply consider the objective probability (that is the bare, stripped down math which is a factor of numbers and averages) but the subjective probability (that is the likelihood of something happening given external factors) I'd be willing to bet given the evidence at hand that odds-makers would give much more favorable odds to Jon Targaryen than to legitimate Aegon Targaryen.

[finger]

Obviously not me, but if you intended me, I don't see how I accounted anything of the sort. Are we failing to communicate?

Ned was enraged by Catelyn asking about Jon's mother, not by asking about Ashara. That is a reading comprehension issue, or maybe a deliberate misreading issue?

You said Allyria was fourteen or some less, which makes her possibly of a realtion when Ned visited Starfall.

And there must be some failing in communication, because I was obviously kidding. :rofl:

[Sigurður Ingi]

We're not dealing here with maths but literature. R+L is based on a thorough analysis of multiple aspects and clues. There is not so much material for (f)Aegon, though what little we do have points towards him being a fake.

What I find interesting about Aegon and Jon is that Aegon was taught to be Targyen if it is true that he is fake while Jon was born as Targyen if R+L=J. is true.

What also interests me about Aegon is that he believes himself to be Targyen similar to Jon believes himself to be Stark and would R+L =J change I any of that.

Yes I know that R+L=J is that Jon would be half Stark but still many people consider what they are based on their father background like Arya, Robb and Sansa we mostly never consider them as Tullys so my question is would he stop believing himself as Stark and start considering himself as Targyen.

[Sigurður Ingi]

We have Howland Reed, we have possibly Ashara Dayne, there is also that crown of old KitN thing, Winterfell crypts, possible wills. IF Martin wants Jon to be King of 7 Kingdoms, he will find the way for people to accept it... But, again that;s a big IF.

You forget the blue flower in wall of ice vision with sweetness surrounding it. Dany would be much lenient of accepting Jon as nephew, who doesn't even want Throne, than the one who will fight her

IMO, three-headed dragon is one person... You know, dragon is singular.

about three headed dragon, I always thought it was symbol to Aegon I and his two sister dragons which why I find it interesting now that we have three Targaryen heirs if we believe Aegon is true and R+L=J is also true.

[finger]

OK, if Aegon is real, he is older and he is heir. But that is a big IF.

The same big IF applies to Jon being a targ.

Nowhere next to the same size, sorry.

Not the same indeed. Even though I defend the theory that Aegon is alive some where, the clues about Jon are overwhelming.

Let me add a new one. I've found a passage full of irony whe LF tells us the truth about JOn while scheming a plot with Sansa.

GRRM has the grace of warning us about the fun is coming: "Lord Petyr was being so kind, she didn't want to spoil it all by reching on him."

...

And now, the great deceiver talks:

"It's not safe to be a Stark (Targaryen) just now, so we shall tell Lysa's (Winterfell's) people that you are my natural daughter." (italics added)

"It's rude to pry into the origins of a man's natural children"

"She (your mother) died giving you birth"

And the last terrific irony:

"Are you fond of games, Alayne?"

One of these days I'll load up one with Maester Aemon.

[Ygrain]

Not the same indeed. Even though I defend the theory that Aegon is alive some where, the clues about Jon are overwhelming.

Let me add a new one. I've found a passage full of irony whe LF tells us the truth about JOn while scheming a plot with Sansa.

GRRM has the grace of warning us about the fun is coming: "Lord Petyr was being so kind, she didn't want to spoil it all by reching on him."

...

And now, the great deceiver talks:

"It's not safe to be a Stark (Targaryen) just now, so we shall tell Lysa's (Winterfell's) people that you are my natural daughter." (italics added)

"It's rude to pry into the origins of a man's natural children"

"She (your mother) died giving you birth"

And the last terrific irony:

"Are you fond of games, Alayne?"

One of these days I'll load up one with Maester Aemon.

Yes, I've noticed the parallel, as well, and the hint with people not enquiring about bastards is pretty straightforward.

[finger]

about three headed dragon, I always thought it was symbol to Aegon I and his two sister dragons which why I find it interesting now that we have three Targaryen heirs if we believe Aegon is true and R+L=J is also true.

Rhaegar is very explicit in the vision of THOU:

Aegon, what a better name for a king?

His is the Song of Ice and Fire.

There has to be one more. The dragon has three heads.

Unless you say all that was a red herring from the wizards, the story is very, I repeat, very clear.

The true Aegon is hidden beneath the shadow

[Daphnaerys Seaworth]

And yes, Wylla's presence at ToJ is assumed, as well, because Jon had to be fed somehow and because there was at least one more person present whose identity we do not know ("they" found Ned holding Lyanna's dead body - one being Howland Reed, the other or others are never identified)

Anyone got any ideas on who else could have been there?Assuming it wasn 't Wylla.

[Daphnaerys Seaworth]

I'm very much intrigued by the 'Dragons old and young' btw :idea:

Mmmmaybe Maester Aemon? Although he's dead.

[finger]

Anyone got any ideas on who else could have been there?Assuming it wasn 't Wylla.

There's a rule: don't make more assumptions than strictly needed.

IMO, the side story that best accomplish this rule is: Wylla was a woman about ToJ, she went with Jon to Starfall, where she was unknown. She was hired by the Daynes and she didn't get to Winterfell. It's not clear in what moment another wet nurse was found for Jon. There's no real information about Jon being waned before setting out to Winterfell, but I think it seems not. The only clue is Cat's account of her arrival to WF.

[Daphnaerys Seaworth]

IMO, three-headed dragon is one person... You know, dragon is singular.

I one person...then who??

Well .regarding the theory that Tyrion would be one of the heads (+Jon+Dany)...I never really believed it but they do have something in common , not that it bears any relevance to me.All three of their moms died at childbirth (or because of childbirth)....is that some sore of hint? Or just coincidence?

[Daphnaerys Seaworth]

There's a rule: don't make more assumptions than strictly needed.

IMO, the side story that best accomplish this rule is: Wylla was a woman about ToJ, she went with Jon to Starfall, where she was unknown. She was hired by the Daynes and she didn't get to Winterfell. It's not clear in what moment another wet nurse was found for Jon. There's no real information about Jon being waned before setting out to Winterfell, but I think it seems not. The only clue is Cat's account of her arrival to WF.

You're right about the assumptions.It kinda complicates things.

[SFDanny]

Anyone got any ideas on who else could have been there?Assuming it wasn 't Wylla.

I've thought for a long time that it makes sense for a maester to be in attendance for the birth. Over and over again in ASoI&F we are told this is the case with the birth of noble children. The Stark children, Cersei's kids, etc. all fit this custom. The difference is, obviously, the Tower of Joy is not the locale one would expect the birth of a noble child, but there is time enough for preparation to get a maester there. If true, I've speculated that Marwyn fits the profile. He certainly shares Rhaegar's ideas about the importance of magic and is knowledgable about prophecy. Seems like the type of person the prince might chose for a companion and someone he might trust to deliver his child. His travels to far away lands also fits with "getting out of Dodge" so as not to be questioned about the events at the tower. All speculation at this point, other than noting the custom of using a maester.

But I don't think this is a case of instead of Wylla. If someone else was there, then it was in addition to a wet nurse. I'm convinced Wylla was that wet nurse. There is a reason the people of Starfall accept the story of Wylla being Jon's mother. I think that is because she is part of the party that brings newborn Jon to Starfall, is nursing him at the time, and claims to be the child's mother from the beginning. If Wylla had given birth in Starfall to Jon, then it wouldn't be a mystery who Jon's mother was, but an established fact. They certainly don't think Ashara is Jon's mother. This in spite of rumors of romance between Ned and Lady Dayne. But the rumors of Lady Ashara being Jon's mother have enough credence to engender stories that reach to King's Landing and Winterfell. Which suggest it isn't a settle fact even in Starfall.

[Jon Icefyre]

about three headed dragon, I always thought it was symbol to Aegon I and his two sister dragons which why I find it interesting now that we have three Targaryen heirs if we believe Aegon is true and R+L=J is also true.

Well technically it is a symbol for Aegon l and his two sisters. The Targaryen House sigil which is a red three-headed dragon was created by Aegon l and his sisters to represent their union that became the first ruiling monarch of the then united six kingdoms, along with the official start of the Targ dynasty ruling in Westeros. Each head represents one of the three members of their marriage so the original terms is actually talking about three ppl not one. It's also pretty clear that Rhaegar was basing his interpretation of the three-headed dragon in TPTWP prophecy off of the original three-headed dragon as well, which is why he says, "the dragon needs three-heads there must be one more" after Elia had given birth to two children who Rhaegar named Aegon and Rhaenys, fittingly named after two members of the original three headed dragon Aegon l his sister/wife Rhaenys l. I'm assuming if Rhaegar had another child that was a girl he probably would've named her Visenya and many on here believe that if he was alive and present during Jons birth he probably would've named him Viserys which is the male version of Visenya. With that being said, I think whatever the prophecy is actually talking about, is not necessarily connected to the original three-headed dragon, and that this is one of the things Rhaegar may have gotten wrong about the prophecy. But it's still too early to tell, and I think it's more than clear there's going to be a Targ pretender/fake who arises at some point in the story moving forward, which at this point seems to be YG. I'm just not sold at all on him actually being Aegon and GRRM's writing style is much more suited for a fake Aegon than a real one.

[corbon]

But the rumors of Lady Ashara being Jon's mother have enough credence to engender stories that reach to King's Landing and Winterfell. Which suggest it isn't a settle fact even in Starfall.

I'm not sure said rumours have any connection to what Starfall thinks though.

Ned Stark's bastard turns up at Winterfell...

"Where the heck did he come from, nobody had a clue?" :eek:

"Well... Ned was just at Starfall... and before that he was fighting the war at Storms End... KL... the Riverlands...

"Say, didn't the young lady of Starfall just commit suicide when he left?" :idea:

"Was she the one dismissed from court in some sort of scandal a wee way back?" :idea: :idea:

"Ahh, yes, she might just have been..." :cheers:

[FrozenFire3]

Ygrain also deserves kudos for being the first to introduce humor to a sometimes contentious thread, proving that you can have both intellectual integrity, but be a real person too. :bowdown:

The rest of us just ran with it- really ran. :)

Humor it the greatest healer, and is the song amongst tears.

:agree: and second Mladen's thanks :)

Humour/elegant irony is not only the ultimate healer but also a very faithful companion to intelligence ;)