R+L = J v 62

[Daphnaerys Seaworth]

I've thought for a long time that it makes sense for a maester to be in attendance for the birth.

Yes...A maester but if there was indeed a measter in addition to Wylla, then why did Lyanna die anyway?She would have had greater chances in surviving if she was being cared for properly.Especially by a maester.

Anyways,

guys can someone PLEEEASE help me out with something?I'd appreciate it.

I am re-reading the whole series for the first time and I'm not very experienced in finding and explaining all the tiny teeny details most of you are and I haven't been on this forum long enough to know the things some of you already know.This question has probably been asked before but I'll throw it out there once again.

I was in p.199 of AGOT ,in the part where Ned meets in secret with Cat and they all talk about Bran etc.

There is suddenly this paragraph where Ned thinks of Robert and how "he turned away" and was untouched by : the horrific deaths of the Targaryen babes,the fact that he has hired killers to kill Daenerys and to Sansa when she pleaded for Lady's life and then closes his thoughts with "as Lyanna had pleaded once."

What the hell was that?Who did Lyanna plead to once and for what?

I'm missing something here, correct me if I'm wrong but she never pleaded to Aerys or did she?

[corbon]

Yes...A maester but if there was indeed a measter in addition to Wylla, then why did Lyanna die anyway?She would have had greater chances in surviving if she was being cared for properly.Especially by a maester.

Improved chance does not = 100% chance.

Anyways,

guys can someone PLEEEASE help me out with something?I'd appreciate it.

I am re-reading the whole series for the first time and I'm not very experienced in finding and explaining all the tiny teeny details most of you are and I haven't been on this forum long enough to know the things some of you already know.This question has probably been asked before but I'll throw it out there once again.

I was in p.199 of AGOT ,in the part where Ned meets in secret with Cat and they all talk about Bran etc.

There is suddenly this paragraph where Ned thinks of Robert and how "he turned away" and was untouched by : the horrific deaths of the Targaryen babes,the fact that he has hired killers to kill Daenerys and to Sansa when she pleaded for Lady's life and then closes his thoughts with "as Lyanna had pleaded once."

What the hell was that?Who did Lyanna plead to once and for what?

I'm missing something here, correct me if I'm wrong but she never pleaded to Aerys or did she?

It is thought that she may have pleaded with Ned regarding Jon.

Remember the fear only left her eyes when he gave her his promise.

[Daphnaerys Seaworth]

It is thought that she may have pleaded with Ned regarding Jon.

Remember the fear only left her eyes when he gave her his promise.

Yes I have thought about that, but Ned in his thoughts is using pleading in another sense.

e.g. Someone pleads to someone else (probably an authority) but that person looks away,untouched.Tries to disengage from that moment as Robert has done so many times.Here, pleading means, desperation.

In his case, Lyanna had asked him to do something for her, as one loving sibling to another.Knowing Ned, and his morals I know he would never hurt Jon of let anyone hurt him anyway, so I believe Lyanna didn't have to be pleading to him despeately.She only need to ask him to promise.

See what I mean?

It might as well be Lyanna pleading with Ned regarding Jon but something does NOT stick right with it.

I believe Ned is remembering something we don't know about.

[Ygrain]

Yes...A maester but if there was indeed a measter in addition to Wylla, then why did Lyanna die anyway?She would have had greater chances in surviving if she was being cared for properly.Especially by a maester.

With the lack of disinfectants and ATBs, a maester's presence wouldn't have changed a thing, as it seems that Lyanna died of puerperal fever, i.e. infection of the birthing wounds.

Anyways,

I was in p.199 of AGOT ,in the part where Ned meets in secret with Cat and they all talk about Bran etc.

There is suddenly this paragraph where Ned thinks of Robert and how "he turned away" and was untouched by : the horrific deaths of the Targaryen babes,the fact that he has hired killers to kill Daenerys and to Sansa when she pleaded for Lady's life and then closes his thoughts with "as Lyanna had pleaded once."

What the hell was that?Who did Lyanna plead to once and for what?

I'm missing something here, correct me if I'm wrong but she never pleaded to Aerys or did she?

Yes I have thought about that, but Ned in his thoughts is using pleading in another sense.

e.g. Someone pleads to someone else (probably an authority) but that person looks away,untouched.Tries to disengage from that moment as Robert has done so many times.Here, pleading means, desperation.

In his case, Lyanna had asked him to do something for her, as one loving sibling to another.Knowing Ned, and his morals I know he would never hurt Jon of let anyone hurt him anyway, so I believe Lyanna didn't have to be pleading to him despeately.She only need to ask him to promise.

See what I mean?

It might as well be Lyanna pleading with Ned regarding Jon but something does NOT stick right with it.

I believe Ned is remembering something we don't know about.

Lyanna was begging Ned to save Jon's life and conceal him from Robert, which would constitute treason and stain Ned's honour. That's why she had to plead and wasn't sure if he would grant her wish.

Sansa's pleading reminds Ned of Lyanna because both pleaded for the life of someone dear and innocent. The bottom line is that Robert would have turned away from Lyanna as he did from Sansa.

[Ghost's Shadow]

You do understand that Lyanna and Ned hadn't seen each other for a long time during that war, and probably didn't see each other that much before that either due to him being fostered at the Arryns, right?

If you look at Robert Baratheon, Ned's best friend, he's ALL about killing ALL dragonspawn, and it was known at the ToJ back then that Rhaegar, Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon and Aerys had been so brutally slain. The reason why Viserys and Daenerys weren't hunted down before the happenings in AGoT was because Jon Arryn managed to calm Robert down, otherwise they might have been dead as well.

Lyanna has no idea if Ned was going to sell Jon out to Robert or not, because Ned could have changed during all that wartime. We know that Ned is honourable, but he did not yet have that reputation back then, possibly, and even then in this case that's not something Lyanna, a fresh mother and a dying one to boot, would, or rather could have counted on.

Lyanna broke a marriage deal by running away with Rhaegar, a deal that would seal her and Ned's best friend together. Because of Aerys' madness, the Lord of Winterfell and his heir also lost their lives, and the impact of those losses on Ned is not something Lyanna could have predicted. We know that Ned is basically filled with sadness about those events now, but that could have been anger at his sister for what she'd done, and all the mess that happened after that, too. We know that Ned was disgusted by seeing Rhaenys and Aegon's dead bodies, hence why he wanted Cersei and her children to leave - so he wouldn't have to see that be repeated, but did the one who informed the people at the ToJ (the KG knew) about the deaths add that Ned had a huge falling out with Robert after that?

Lyanna, before she died had fear in her eyes, and she extracted multiple promises out of Ned, of which undoubtedly the one to protect Jon from Robert was the most important one.

[Ygrain]

I would add that this was probably the first time that Ned was confronted with the choice between mercy and honour, or perhaps love/family and honour, and there was really no telling which one he would choose.

[Alia of the knife]

:agree: and second Mladen's thanks :)

Humour/elegant irony is not only the ultimate healer but also a very faithful companion to intelligence ;)

Could not agree more. :bowdown:

[Alia of the knife]

I would add that this was probably the first time that Ned was confronted with the choice between mercy and honour, or perhaps love/family and honour, and there was really no telling which one he would choose.

Another example of Martin's Faulkner, and "the human heart in conflict with itself," a theme which is literally the foundation for this work.

[Alia of the knife]

Okay, since there is an "intermission" until the next topic, I'll leave you with this:

What Rhaegars Great Council might look like:

To: HRH, Rhaegar Targaryen

From: Jaimie Lannister

Re: Final Meeting Agenda

Subject: Kingdom Acquisition and Human Resources

Your Grace,

Here are the tentative revisions to the Itinerary you asked for with a few notes:

We had to cut Lysa Tullys presentation regarding "Breast Feeding vs. Bottle Feeding: Pros & Cons."

It seems she was called away for a family emergency.

For the Teambuilding and Ice Breaker excercises:

Jon Connington will be performing a skit called "Dances with Wolves."

Your father and mother will perform their version of "Dances with Dragons," and a sing-a-long, followed by the presentation of the royal watch for your fathers retirement.

(It's all about getting everyone out of their comfort zone).

Here is the rest of the Agenda:

Meeting Facilitator: Rhaegar Targaryen

Invitees: Rickard Stark, Tywin Lannister, Varys ?, Ned Stark, Ashara Dayne.

Call to Order: Jaimie Lannister

Roll Call: Ser Arthur Dayne

Approval of minutes from last meeting: Gerold Hightower

Adjournment: Ser Barristan Selmy

Open Issues:

- Varys, (what is his last name again)?: "How Children are Crucial to Personal Organization and Streamlining the People in your Life."

- Rickard Stark: "What to do when Life is a not a Song, but a Stick-Your-Head-In-The-Oven-and-Turn-on-the-Gas, Unmitigated Disaster."

- Tywin Lannister (Two” Topic):

1) "Why not killing everyone is crucial to Managing Others."

2) “Why a frown is really a smiley face upside down.”

- Ned Stark: "Why Telling the truth Surrounded by your Worst Enemies is not always the best Answer."

New Business:

- Aerys Targaryen: "How to Recruit Affectively,"

- Ashara Dayne: “Can the person who is NOT my kid, please stand up?”

- Rhaegar Targaryen: “Can the person who is NOT my kid, please stand up?”

Guest Speaker: Oberyn Martell: "How to Release Your Inner Winner and Why Sexual Healing is great therapy."

A Message From Barristan on Love of Honor:

"Why Honor is More Important than:"

-Love

-Sex

- Sanity

- Being able to sleep at night.

- Speculating if Ned Stark will ever go on a Turrets-inspired, losing-his-shit, wanting-to-clock-Brandon, rampage.

We hope this information will be helpful to you as you go back to your lands and implement the Crown Prince Regents plan for stopping our biggest competitor.

Adjourned!

[WhiteOwl18]

Okay, since there is an "intermission" until the next topic, I'll leave you with this:

What Rhaegars Great Council might look like:

To: HRH, Rhaegar Targaryen

From: Jaimie Lannister

Re: Final Meeting Agenda

Subject: Kingdom Acquisition and Human Resources

Your Grace,

Here are the tentative revisions to the Itinerary you asked for with a few notes:

We had to cut Lysa Tullys presentation regarding "Breast Feeding vs. Bottle Feeding: Pros & Cons."

It seems she was called away for a family emergency.

For the Teambuilding and Ice Breaker excercises:

Jon Connington will be performing a skit called "Dances with Wolves."

Your father and mother will perform their version of "Dances with Dragons," and a sing-a-long, followed by the presentation of the royal watch for your fathers retirement.

(It's all about getting everyone out of their comfort zone).

Here is the rest of the Agenda:

Meeting Facilitator: Rhaegar Targaryen

Invitees: Rickard Stark, Tywin Lannister, Varys ?, Brandon Stark, Renly Berantheon, Ashara Dayne.

Call to Order: Jaimie Lannister

Roll Call: Ser Arthur Dayne

Approval of minutes from last meeting: Gerold Hightower

Adjournment: Ser Barristan Selmy

Open Issues:

- Varys, (what is his last name again)?: "How Children are Crucial to Personal Organization and Streamlining the People in your Life."

- Rickard Stark: "What to do when Life is a not a Song, but a Stick-Your-Head-In-The-Oven-and-Turn-on-the-Gas, Unmitigated Disaster."

- Tywin Lannister (Two” Topic):

1) "Why not killing everyone is crucial to Managing Others."

2) “Why a frown is really a smiley face upside down.”

- Ned Stark: "Why Telling the truth Surrounded by your Worst Enemies is not always the best Answer."

New Business:

- Aerys Targaryen: "How to Recruit Affectively,"

- Ashara Dayne: “Can the person who is NOT my kid, please stand up?”

- Rhaegar Targaryen: “Can the person who is NOT my kid, please stand up?”

Guest Speaker: Oberyn Martell: "How to Release Your Inner Winner and Why Sexual Healing is great therapy."

A Message From Barristan on Love of Honor:

"Why Honor is More Important than:"

-Love

-Sex

- Sanity

- Being able to sleep at night.

- Speculating if Ned Stark will ever go on a Turrets-inspired, losing-his-shit, wanting-to-clock-Brandon, rampage.

We hope this information will be helpful to you as you go back to your lands and implement the Crown Prince Regents plan for stopping our biggest competitor.

Adjourned!

:bowdown: :lmao:

[Daphnaerys Seaworth]

Sansa's pleading reminds Ned of Lyanna because both pleaded for the life of someone dear and innocent. The bottom line is that Robert would have turned away from Lyanna as he did from Sansa.

I get it now, thanks ^_^

[FrozenFire3]

<snip>

- Ashara Dayne: “Can the person who is NOT my kid, please stand up?”

- Rhaegar Targaryen: “Can the person who is NOT my kid, please stand up?”

<snip>

:lmao: I'll never recover :rofl:

[finger]

Well technically it is a symbol for Aegon l and his two sisters. The Targaryen House sigil which is a red three-headed dragon was created by Aegon l and his sisters to represent their union that became the first ruiling monarch of the then united six kingdoms, along with the official start of the Targ dynasty ruling in Westeros. Each head represents one of the three members of their marriage so the original terms is actually talking about three ppl not one. It's also pretty clear that Rhaegar was basing his interpretation of the three-headed dragon in TPTWP prophecy off of the original three-headed dragon as well, which is why he says, "the dragon needs three-heads there must be one more" after Elia had given birth to two children who Rhaegar named Aegon and Rhaenys, fittingly named after two members of the original three headed dragon Aegon l his sister/wife Rhaenys l. I'm assuming if Rhaegar had another child that was a girl he probably would've named her Visenya and many on here believe that if he was alive and present during Jons birth he probably would've named him Viserys which is the male version of Visenya. With that being said, I think whatever the prophecy is actually talking about, is not necessarily connected to the original three-headed dragon, and that this is one of the things Rhaegar may have gotten wrong about the prophecy. But it's still too early to tell, and I think it's more than clear there's going to be a Targ pretender/fake who arises at some point in the story moving forward, which at this point seems to be YG. I'm just not sold at all on him actually being Aegon and GRRM's writing style is much more suited for a fake Aegon than a real one.

Well, remember the whole scene. Rhaegar was talkink with some woman about Aegon. Then, he lifted his eyes, looked at Daenerys, and said so much. She didn't actually know whom he was talking to. On the other hand, the discussion was whether three heads mean three people.

And then, IMO, YG is the mummer's dragon, a fake.

Varys somehow knew that Tywin couldn't find Aegon, and had put a fake boy in his stead, so he dared raise a fake Aegon in case the true one didn't show up. This is somehow an incoherence, since the best means to keep Varys silent was just killing him. Varys might have even provided the fake boy to save himself, proving useful and loyal to Tywin.

I guess Aegon's appearance will be the big surprise in TWOW.

I can't wait to read the book.

Eta: You write about Ned, and Cersei's children, and you know everything is normally written for some purpose. Ned thoughts: "If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do! Even more so, what woud Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body! There's much information in these lines,

[Arya kiddin']

Okay, since there is an "intermission" until the next topic, I'll leave you with this:

What Rhaegars Great Council might look like:

To: HRH, Rhaegar Targaryen

From: Jaimie Lannister

Re: Final Meeting Agenda

Subject: Kingdom Acquisition and Human Resources

Your Grace,

Here are the tentative revisions to the Itinerary you asked for with a few notes:

We had to cut Lysa Tullys presentation regarding "Breast Feeding vs. Bottle Feeding: Pros & Cons."

It seems she was called away for a family emergency.

For the Teambuilding and Ice Breaker excercises:

Jon Connington will be performing a skit called "Dances with Wolves."

Your father and mother will perform their version of "Dances with Dragons," and a sing-a-long, followed by the presentation of the royal watch for your fathers retirement.

(It's all about getting everyone out of their comfort zone).

Here is the rest of the Agenda:

Meeting Facilitator: Rhaegar Targaryen

Invitees: Rickard Stark, Tywin Lannister, Varys ?, Ned Stark, Ashara Dayne.

Call to Order: Jaimie Lannister

Roll Call: Ser Arthur Dayne

Approval of minutes from last meeting: Gerold Hightower

Adjournment: Ser Barristan Selmy

Open Issues:

- Varys, (what is his last name again)?: "How Children are Crucial to Personal Organization and Streamlining the People in your Life."

- Rickard Stark: "What to do when Life is a not a Song, but a Stick-Your-Head-In-The-Oven-and-Turn-on-the-Gas, Unmitigated Disaster."

- Tywin Lannister (Two” Topic):

1) "Why not killing everyone is crucial to Managing Others."

2) “Why a frown is really a smiley face upside down.”

- Ned Stark: "Why Telling the truth Surrounded by your Worst Enemies is not always the best Answer."

New Business:

- Aerys Targaryen: "How to Recruit Affectively,"

- Ashara Dayne: “Can the person who is NOT my kid, please stand up?”

- Rhaegar Targaryen: “Can the person who is NOT my kid, please stand up?”

Guest Speaker: Oberyn Martell: "How to Release Your Inner Winner and Why Sexual Healing is great therapy."

A Message From Barristan on Love of Honor:

"Why Honor is More Important than:"

-Love

-Sex

- Sanity

- Being able to sleep at night.

- Speculating if Ned Stark will ever go on a Turrets-inspired, losing-his-shit, wanting-to-clock-Brandon, rampage.

We hope this information will be helpful to you as you go back to your lands and implement the Crown Prince Regents plan for stopping our biggest competitor.

Adjourned!

Honestly, all the time you put there, well and worth it. :bowdown:

Great theories we've in plenty, we need more people who can put smiles on people's faces (smiles that are not upside down).

[MtnLion]

Eta: You write about Ned, and Cersei's children, and you know everything is normally written for some purpose. Ned thoughts: "If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do! Even more so, what woud Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body! There's much information in these lines,

You mean like the major reason that Ned never told Catelyn about Jon? ;)

Sometimes an apple is just an apple.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

*snip

:lmao:!!!

Motion: All business henceforth shall be dealt with in like manner

;)

[Jon Icefyre]

And then, IMO, YG is the mummer's dragon, a fake.

Varys somehow knew that Tywin couldn't find Aegon, and had put a fake boy in his stead, so he dared raise a fake Aegon in case the true one didn't show up. This is somehow an incoherence, since the best means to keep Varys silent was just killing him. Varys might have even provided the fake boy to save himself, proving useful and loyal to Tywin.

I guess Aegon's appearance will be the big surprise in TWOW.

I'm sorry but no, this is ridiclulous there's no way GRRM is going to put a twist, within a twist, within a twist, like that this far in the series with only two books left. There's far too great a risk for Tywin to pretend like he killed the real Aegon when he knew the baby was a fake. Also there's no way Tywin would trust Varys who was a known Targ supporter to go along with a plan like that. There's no reason to do that all, he could've easily just said the real Aegon fled Westeros into exile the same way that Viserys did, Tywin would've been proven just as loyal to Robert if he had shown him only a dead Rhaenys instead of Aegon and Rhaenys, either way Robert would've seen that Tywin was willing to kill Rhaegar's children for him.

GRRM's not gonna go through this whole YG story arc, reveal him to be a fake, reveal R+L=J, make whatever moves he's planning to make with Dany, and then say, "OH wait no, actually there's another kid that I've kept hidden all this time, and it turns out he's actually the real Aegon. So even though YG is a fake we can still have one big happy Targ family reunion with Dany, Jon, and this completely new character I've decided to bring on as the real Aegon!."

Again that's not how GRRM operates, the real Aegon died at KL, YG is a fake, and as far as the rest of the story goes, YG will be the only one claiming to be Aegon.....

[Jon Icefyre]

Improved chance does not = 100% chance.

It is thought that she may have pleaded with Ned regarding Jon.

Remember the fear only left her eyes when he gave her his promise.

:agree:

[Ghost's Shadow]

I'm sorry but no, this is ridiclulous there's no way GRRM is going to put a twist, within a twist, within a twist, like that this far in the series with only two books left. There's far too great a risk for Tywin to pretend like he killed the real Aegon when he knew the baby was a fake. Also there's no way Tywin would trust Varys who was a known Targ supporter to go along with a plan like that. There's no reason to do that all, he could've easily just said the real Aegon fled Westeros into exile the same way that Viserys did, Tywin would've been proven just as loyal to Robert if he had shown him only a dead Rhaenys instead of Aegon and Rhaenys, either way Robert would've seen that Tywin was willing to kill Rhaegar's children for him.

GRRM's not gonna go through this whole YG story arc, reveal him to be a fake, reveal R+L=J, make whatever moves he's planning to make with Dany, and then say, "OH wait no, actually there's another kid that I've kept hidden all this time, and it turns out he's actually the real Aegon. So even though YG is a fake we can still have one big happy Targ family reunion with Dany, Jon, and this completely new character I've decided to bring on as the real Aegon!."

Again that's not how GRRM operates, the real Aegon died at KL, YG is a fake, and as far as the rest of the story goes, YG will be the only one claiming to be Aegon.....

You could have just quoted this:

There's a rule: don't make more assumptions than strictly needed.

;)

[Jon Icefyre]

You could have just quoted this:

;)

Haha indeed.