R+L = J v 62

[Alia of the knife]

Honestly, all the time you put there, well and worth it. :bowdown:

Great theories we've in plenty, we need more people who can put smiles on people's faces (smiles that are not upside down).

It's my pleasure, :).

But sadly, I can't tell you how many meetings like that I've attended and how many skits I've been in. :bang:

[finger]

You mean like the major reason that Ned never told Catelyn about Jon? ;)

Sometimes an apple is just an apple.

Not really. The information I get is:

a) He names all his children one by one, and Jon is not among them.

B) An unknown child might be sacrified to save your own. That relates to Aegon and the smashed-head boy.

[MtnLion]

Not really. The information I get is:

a) He names all his children one by one, and Jon is not among them.

B) An unknown child might be sacrified to save your own. That relates to Aegon and the smashed-head boy.

B ) Nope, you are trying to read something in that isn't there. He is talking about Catelyn sacrificing Jon's true identity to save her own children. And, he addresses his own weakness of having to chose between his children and Jon. ;)

ETA: Ned believes that Aegon is dead, so I can't think of any way that you can transfer his thoughts to that child. (period)

[finger]

You could have just quoted this:

;)

So the both of you don't need more assumptions.

Good old Tywin only had to say: "Hi, Bob. The wicked troddler has escaped from under my nose, but never mind, I'll find him."

Great.

[Jon Icefyre]

So the both of you don't need more assumptions.

Good old Tywin only had to say: "Hi, Bob. The wicked troddler has escaped from under my nose, but never mind, I'll find him."

Great.

Or drumroll.........There simply was no escape, and the real Aegon is indeed dead. :idea: :idea: :idea:

[Gneisenau]

Is there a comprehensive list of possible people who might know R+L=J ?

[Alia of the knife]

:lmao: Ill never recover :rofl:

That's what I'm here for. :wideeyed:

[SFDanny]

I'm not sure said rumours have any connection to what Starfall thinks though.

Ned Stark's bastard turns up at Winterfell...

"Where the heck did he come from, nobody had a clue?" :eek:

"Well... Ned was just at Starfall... and before that he was fighting the war at Storms End... KL... the Riverlands...

"Say, didn't the young lady of Starfall just commit suicide when he left?" :idea:

"Was she the one dismissed from court in some sort of scandal a wee way back?" :idea: :idea:

"Ahh, yes, she might just have been..." :cheers:

The reason I think the status of Starfall's confidence in Wylla's story is important to the rumors elsewhere regarding Ashara is simply this - If the people of Starfall know Wylla is Jon's mother (i.e. she gave birth to the child in their midst) then reports back to King's Landing on onto Winterfell about Ashara would be shot down. Yet we have Cersei confronting Ned with the rumor of Ashara and the possibility of Ned having raped a Dornish peasant as credible alternatives. I think Cersei has heard reports about this - her knowledge smacks of a second hand story from Varys or Pycelle through Tywin - and her lack of certainty concerning just who is Jon's mother reflects that it isn't certain in Starfall - at least as far as Robert's spies can make out. My take on it anyway.

[Old-Growth]

The comic letters, which I much enjoyed, remind me of the "Funny Fake Letters" thread from a while back. Maybe it is time to revive that thread.

[FrozenFire3]

That's what I'm here for. :wideeyed:

A soothing balm for my wretched soul lol

Talking of word games&co, I bumped into this passage:

Remember that, Lord Snow. It is the one true king of Westeros who stands before you.

And had a bit of a fun:

Remember that it is Lord Snow, who stands before you, the one true king of Westeros.

Cryptic subliminal message??? :lol:

Disclaimer: any reference to serious theories or analyses is purely coincidential. All in good fun ;)

[finger]

B ) Nope, you are trying to read something in that isn't there. He is talking about Catelyn sacrificing Jon's true identity to save her own children. And, he addresses his own weakness of having to chose between his children and Jon. ;)

ETA: Ned believes that Aegon is dead, so I can't think of any way that you can transfer his thoughts to that child. (period)

Not Ned, Martin.

Martin is telling us that Jon is not Ned's son.

Otoh, he poses a moral dilemma, as he does all along the series, that Ned refuses to solve. It's not the isolated fact, but a cathegory: is it acceptable to sadrifice an innocent to avoid a bigger dammage? It's at least as old as Ifigenia.

[finger]

Or drumroll.........There simply was no escape, and the real Aegon is indeed dead. :idea: :idea: :idea:

And some moron smashed his head so that nobody could recognize him, just because. Tywin said so, didn't he? And Tywin is reliable: sometimes he even tells the truth to his own maester.

And the brutal treatment to Elia and Rhaenys was just for fun, as Tywin says.

Moreover, I think YG's purpose in the story is mainly to remind the reader that we're not done with Aegon.

I guess you mean what you write, but sometimes I doubt if you're trolling.

[finger]

The reason I think the status of Starfall's confidence in Wylla's story is important to the rumors elsewhere regarding Ashara is simply this - If the people of Starfall know Wylla is Jon's mother (i.e. she gave birth to the child in their midst) then reports back to King's Landing on onto Winterfell about Ashara would be shot down. Yet we have Cersei confronting Ned with the rumor of Ashara and the possibility of Ned having raped a Dornish peasant as credible alternatives. I think Cersei has heard reports about this - her knowledge smacks of a second hand story from Varys or Pycelle through Tywin - and her lack of certainty concerning just who is Jon's mother reflects that it isn't certain in Starfall - at least as far as Robert's spies can make out. My take on it anyway.

What do you mean by the people of Starfall?

I think Arthur Dayne's sieblings knew, and they tried to keep it undercover. Small folks had seen Jon and Wylla, and there had to be rumours, as there was about whatever happened at HH.

[corbon]

The reason I think the status of Starfall's confidence in Wylla's story is important to the rumors elsewhere regarding Ashara is simply this - If the people of Starfall know Wylla is Jon's mother (i.e. she gave birth to the child in their midst) then reports back to King's Landing on onto Winterfell about Ashara would be shot down.

How?

Is someone from Starfall at KL or Winterfell? (Apart from Wylla obviously)

No. So who is going to do the shooting down?

[Daphnaerys Seaworth]

Something else I caught during my re-read of AGOT which at first I had totally ignored but then I thought about it carefully, it was right there in front of my face!Ned himself says clearly something that proves Lyanna wasn't abducted.I'm sure someone has pointed this out before.It's just because it really stuck with me and I can't believe I missed it all this time that is why I want to share it.

It might cause some "Duh!" comments but...What the hell :P

Somewhere in p. 221 Ned says to Arya.

"You have a wildness in you,child.'The wolf blood', my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch.It brought them both to an early grave."

At this point the reader knows Lyanna was abducted,probably raped and died a painful death at the hands of Rhaegar Targaryen.

But,taking this as the truth, why would Ned say it was her wolf blood that brought her to an early grave?What does her attitude and her wolf blood have anything to do with the fact that she got abducted and "tortured" at the hands of a so-called "monster"?

Yes, Brandon's wolf blood got him killed.That is known.He acted very fast and with little thought.But what did Lyanna ever do to cause her forceful "abduction"?

Ned says that exactly because Lyanna wasn't abducted.She ran off with Rhaegar at her own will and she came to an early grave because of that choice.

[Ygrain]

Something else I caught during my re-read of AGOT which at first I had totally ignored but then I thought about it carefully, it was right there in front of my face!Ned himself says clearly something that proves Lyanna wasn't abducted.I'm sure someone has pointed this out before.It's just because it really stuck with me and I can't believe I missed it all this time that is why I want to share it.

It might cause some "Duh!" comments but...What the hell :P

Somewhere in p. 221 Ned says to Arya.

"You have a wildness in you,child.'The wolf blood', my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch.It brought them both to an early grave."

At this point the reader knows Lyanna was abducted,probably raped and died a painful death at the hands of Rhaegar Targaryen.

But,taking this as the truth, why would Ned say it was her wolf blood that brought her to an early grave?What does her attitude and her wolf blood have anything to do with the fact that she got abducted and "tortured" at the hands of a so-called "monster"?

Yes, Brandon's wolf blood got him killed.That is known.He acted very fast and with little thought.But what did Lyanna ever do to cause her forceful "abduction"?

Ned says that exactly because Lyanna wasn't abducted.She ran off with Rhaegar at her own will and she came to an early grave because of that choice.

Amen :-)

Unless Lyanna was at least at some point a willing participant, that would be shameful victim-blaming, and that would be totally out of character for Ned, hence we must assume that Lyanna was somehow complicit in her downfall.

[Daphnaerys Seaworth]

Amen :-)

Unless Lyanna was at least at some point a willing participant, that would be shameful victim-blaming, and that would be totally out of character for Ned, hence we must assume that Lyanna was somehow complicit in her downfall.

Yep, I don't think Ned would dare to say such a thing if that was the case.

However, first timers won't get it because they know so little about Lyanna and don't suspect the fishiness of Jon's origins and will probably ignore that hint until they start suspecting more about R+L=J...

Anyway, it is my first re-read and I am getting all excited like a little child with a new toy when catching all these tiny details! :lol:

It's so much fun!

[MtnLion]

Not Ned, Martin.

Martin is telling us that Jon is not Ned's son.

Otoh, he poses a moral dilemma, as he does all along the series, that Ned refuses to solve. It's not the isolated fact, but a cathegory: is it acceptable to sadrifice an innocent to avoid a bigger dammage? It's at least as old as Ifigenia.

Are you channeling GRRM, now? I understand how desperate you are to avoid the conclusion that we all see coming, but really, you are not writing the story and you will need to accept it.

And some moron smashed his head so that nobody could recognize him, just because. Tywin said so, didn't he? And Tywin is reliable: sometimes he even tells the truth to his own maester.

And the brutal treatment to Elia and Rhaenys was just for fun, as Tywin says.

Moreover, I think YG's purpose in the story is mainly to remind the reader that we're not done with Aegon.

I guess you mean what you write, but sometimes I doubt if you're trolling.

That same moron demonstrated what he did, in front of very many witnesses, using Oberyn's head as training aid. I really see no reason to suspect that Aegon survived the sack.

[VaramyrSixchins]

The reason I think the status of Starfall's confidence in Wylla's story is important to the rumors elsewhere regarding Ashara is simply this - If the people of Starfall know Wylla is Jon's mother (i.e. she gave birth to the child in their midst) then reports back to King's Landing on onto Winterfell about Ashara would be shot down. Yet we have Cersei confronting Ned with the rumor of Ashara and the possibility of Ned having raped a Dornish peasant as credible alternatives. I think Cersei has heard reports about this - her knowledge smacks of a second hand story from Varys or Pycelle through Tywin - and her lack of certainty concerning just who is Jon's mother reflects that it isn't certain in Starfall - at least as far as Robert's spies can make out. My take on it anyway.

Well, we have, IIRC, only two mentions of the Ashara rumor in WF: Cat's & Harwyn's. Harwyn's links Ned & Ashara romantically, & states those rumors have been floating since he was a kid--a period of at least a decade--but Cat is the only one that specifically links her w Jon. It seems these Ashara rumors are not only a long-standing, deeply rooted part of WF lore, but rather mangled intheir own way.

Also, Ned straight up names Wylla to Robert. Why would Robert have spies in place to answer a question he could have directly posed to Ned--and did?

Finally, it's worth considering, in that conversation you're citing, the source & the context. The source is Cersei--a character with whom examples abound of making shit up on the spot--and the context is her attempts to point out Ned's own failings. A bastard, sure, but rape?! Ned?! That can't be a real rumor. It's likely Cersei--a cynical, paranoid character with a history of embellishments and wrong conclusions--was just adding a little color to the conversation to make a point.

ETA: Starfall also carries the Ashara & Ned romance rumors, & the only thing that makes sense as to why Wylla is named as the mother there is bc Starfall had some knowledge that eliminated Ashara as a candidate. Maybe it was the stillbirth, maybe it was the knowledge that Ashara was there on Starfall grounds & had most decidedly not given birth when Ned appeared w Wylla & a baby in tow, maybe it was something else, but it was something. The WF rumors had existed prior to all of that, anyway, since Harrenhal itself, if Harwyn is credible...

[SFDanny]

How?

Is someone from Starfall at KL or Winterfell? (Apart from Wylla obviously)

No. So who is going to do the shooting down?

Sorry, I'm not making my case clear. I think Cersei's remarks show there was probably an investigation of Ned's story. One that was reported and relayed to her via Varys or Pycelle. The someone is probably contacts Varys would have in Dorne who would check out Ned's story and relay the fact there is a woman in Starfall claiming to be Jon's mother (Wylla) and that her story can't be either confirmed or denied in important respects - no one else is claiming to be at the birth (a local midwife perhaps?) or no one else saw Wylla wandering around for nine months pregnant and saw her just after the birth with Jon (neighbors who knew her.) If any of the former took place, then Cersei wouldn't be suggesting Ashara as a possibility. The facts she does so, I think means Ashara can't be ruled out in the eyes of investigators (aka Varys.)