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R+L = J v 62


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I was wondering... it has been speculated that Rhaegar's sadness was due to prophetic dreams in which he might have seen the threat to Westeros and the destruction of his family. Also, in the HotU vision, it seems as if he was looking at Dany when speaking about the three dragon heads, as if there was a connection between them.

Now, I can't find the passage but somewhere, Dany has a dream of being at the Trident, wearing Rhaegar's armour, and melting away the Usurper's host. It has been argued that the melting actually refers to the Others and is a sign that Dany might be the chosen one as Rhaegar's successor. I wonder if this might be a symbolic vision where the known enemy is supplied instead of the unknown, and if Rhaegar might have had the same dream, which he misinterpreted as his victory over Robert, and hence he was so self-confident that he would win at the Trident.

Of course, it may have been nothing else but wishful thinking on Dany's part as she idolizes Rhaegar, but I think that there might be some deeper meaning to this.

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I was wondering... it has been speculated that Rhaegar's sadness was due to prophetic dreams in which he might have seen the threat to Westeros and the destruction of his family. Also, in the HotU vision, it seems as if he was looking at Dany when speaking about the three dragon heads, as if there was a connection between them.

Now, I can't find the passage but somewhere, Dany has a dream of being at the Trident, wearing Rhaegar's armour, and melting away the Usurper's host. It has been argued that the melting actually refers to the Others and is a sign that Dany might be the chosen one as Rhaegar's successor. I wonder if this might be a symbolic vision where the known enemy is supplied instead of the unknown, and if Rhaegar might have had the same dream, which he misinterpreted as his victory over Robert, and hence he was so self-confident that he would win at the Trident.

Of course, it may have been nothing else but wishful thinking on Dany's part as she idolizes Rhaegar, but I think that there might be some deeper meaning to this.

Hmm, I was more under the impression that he was confident in winning because he thought he was the leader of the three heads of the dragon?

And I thought he was confident because of his victory in the joust at Harrenhal. :)

Ygrain's idea is interesting though.

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Robert (and Stannis and Renly) had a grandmother that was a Targaryen, so yes they share that bloodline, and why Robert was made king. Ghost being albino is interesting, because canids do not express true albinism. It may or may not have anything to do with Bloodraven, so anything to suggest a relationship or lack of is pure speculation.

Yes it is pure speculation with the assumption GRRM is not a geneticist or a zooligist and just wrote a fictional albino wolf into his story.

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@Ygrain Daenerys has that dream while she is sick and miscarries. She sees a host on the Trident armored in black ice, and thinks how easy it would be to swoop in with the dragons and destroy them. (AIR) It would be important to note that she does NOT destroy them in her dream, and she notes to herself it is ONLY a dream. I am not sure about what ramifications we should take from that, though.

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Can someone clarify for me one teeeeeeeeny little thing... In the house of the undying, when Dany see's her older brother and he talks of the dragon having three heads, this one being the song of ice and fire, etc... There was a woman with him. I'm starting a reread, but I'm not there yet... What was the woman described as having looked like? Did they ever give a description of Elia or Lyanna?

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Here is my 2 cents more on the R+L=J Theory.(Well, it's not a theory for me anymore.I take it as a fact.)

I know this won't add anything more to the conversation at this point and the 'veterans' of this board already know and have probably written it before.Maybe 1000 times over.

This reply of mine goes mostly to those new to the boards and to the R+L=J topic who are happening to read the threads now and want to learn more.

But here it is,

In AGOT, Ned goes on a rainy night to visit the brothel Littlefinger took him too, to meet one more bastard of King Robert,the baby Barra where her mother worked.

As he was leaving the brothel while talking to LF he thinks:

p.381

"There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown.For the first time in years,he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels;somehow he thought not."

Why would he remember Rhaegar in specific, in relation to visiting a brothel to see one of the current king's bastards?

The answer is pretty obvious.

Especially where he believes that Rhaegar didn't frequent brothels, really means he wasn't interested in seeing other women that easily.Given what we know about him, this could vaguely indicate that he was a man who would lay with a woman a) out of duty(Elia) b)out of love (Lyanna).

Ned in these lines,remembers Rhaegar as not the man who supposedly abducted and raped his only sister as most believe he did.He remembers the true Rhaegar,his sisters love,the father of the bastard he took home with him to Winterfell.

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Can someone clarify for me one teeeeeeeeny little thing... In the house of the undying, when Dany see's her older brother and he talks of the dragon having three heads, this one being the song of ice and fire, etc... There was a woman with him. I'm starting a reread, but I'm not there yet... What was the woman described as having looked like? Did they ever give a description of Elia or Lyanna?

I think it was Elia.

Well, that's who many say it was.

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I think it was Elia.

Well, that's who many say it was.

That's why I was wondering at least where to find the description and do some cross referencing. I know the accepted timelines wouldn't have matched up, but b/c it was a magically induced vision, I thought perhaps it may be relevent. Then again, it's only relevence may be that the dragon needing three heads encouraged r to get with l in order to have the third child, since e was considered functionally barren after the second birth.

Here is my 2 cents more on the R+L=J Theory.(Well, it's not a theory for me anymore.I take it as a fact.)

I know this won't add anything more to the conversation at this point and the 'veterans' of this board already know and have probably written it before.Maybe 1000 times over.

This reply of mine goes mostly to those new to the boards and to the R+L=J topic who are happening to read the threads now and want to learn more.

But here it is,

In AGOT, Ned goes on a rainy night to visit the brothel Littlefinger took him too, to meet one more bastard of King Robert,the baby Barra where her mother worked.

As he was leaving the brothel while talking to LF he thinks:

p.381

"There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown.For the first time in years,he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels;somehow he thought not."

Why would he remember Rhaegar in specific, in relation to visiting a brothel to see one of the current king's bastards?

The answer is pretty obvious.

Especially where he believes that Rhaegar didn't frequent brothels, really means he wasn't interested in seeing other women that easily.Given what we know about him, this could vaguely indicate that he was a man who would lay with a woman a) out of duty(Elia) b)out of love (Lyanna).

Ned in these lines,remembers Rhaegar as not the man who supposedly abducted and raped his only sister as most believe he did.He remembers the true Rhaegar,his sisters love,the father of the bastard he took home with him to Winterfell.

This. I like this point. Sorry for the double post. I'm still getting my sea legs here... But I love this!

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I was wondering... it has been speculated that Rhaegar's sadness was due to prophetic dreams in which he might have seen the threat to Westeros and the destruction of his family. Also, in the HotU vision, it seems as if he was looking at Dany when speaking about the three dragon heads, as if there was a connection between them.

Now, I can't find the passage but somewhere, Dany has a dream of being at the Trident, wearing Rhaegar's armour, and melting away the Usurper's host. It has been argued that the melting actually refers to the Others and is a sign that Dany might be the chosen one as Rhaegar's successor. I wonder if this might be a symbolic vision where the known enemy is supplied instead of the unknown, and if Rhaegar might have had the same dream, which he misinterpreted as his victory over Robert, and hence he was so self-confident that he would win at the Trident.

Of course, it may have been nothing else but wishful thinking on Dany's part as she idolizes Rhaegar, but I think that there might be some deeper meaning to this.

That's exactly what I thought. Daenerys's head has been filled with anti-usurper propaganda by her brother and no one with connections to Westeros has really bothered to dispel it, so the dream is a harbinger of what's to come filtered through the stories she's heard of the past because she has no other frame of reference, but I agree that she's seeing herself fighting against the Others. I don't think it means she's the only warrior that will fight the Others, because I think Jon will also fight the Others, but I think she and her dragons will be a warrior in the war for Dawn.

@Ygrain Daenerys has that dream while she is sick and miscarries. She sees a host on the Trident armored in black ice, and thinks how easy it would be to swoop in with the dragons and destroy them. (AIR) It would be important to note that she does NOT destroy them in her dream, and she notes to herself it is ONLY a dream. I am not sure about what ramifications we should take from that, though.

From the Citadel:

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

The host armored in ice could be a suggestion that the battle she should be preparing for is not against the armies of the Seven Kingdoms, but rather of the Others, against which dragonfire looks likely to prove an important weapon.

I suppose you could take that several ways. I take it the same way that Ygrain (and the Citadel) did. It's a vision of the future filtered through the past.

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Can someone clarify for me one teeeeeeeeny little thing... In the house of the undying, when Dany see's her older brother and he talks of the dragon having three heads, this one being the song of ice and fire, etc... There was a woman with him. I'm starting a reread, but I'm not there yet... What was the woman described as having looked like? Did they ever give a description of Elia or Lyanna?

GRRM confirmed that pair talking were Elia and Rhaegar. The baby Rhaegar was holding is Aegon.

Yes it is pure speculation with the assumption GRRM is not a geneticist or a zooligist and just wrote a fictional albino wolf into his story.

Well, I wouldn't call GRRM zoologist, but that he knows the matter he is writing about, he knows. And I honestly doubt that albino wolf and Targaryen Great Bastard transformed into Old God are not connected...

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GRRM confirmed that pair talking were Elia and Rhaegar. The baby Rhaegar was holding is Aegon.

Well, I wouldn't call GRRM zoologist, but that he knows the matter he is writing about, he knows. And I honestly doubt that albino wolf and Targaryen Great Bastard transformed into Old God are not connected...

Thanks so much for clarifying. I don't have the net at home so I don't always get to be up to date on the interviews and such :-)

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...Rhaegar might have had the same dream, which he misinterpreted as his victory over Robert, and hence he was so self-confident that he would win at the Trident.

I think the uber-confidence thing is a load of bollocks propagated by the haters as just another reason to scorn him.

When you go to war, to smite a rebellion, you don't make public plans for losing. You make plans for winning, and assume an air of confidence, and plan for the positive future.

Thats all Rhaegar is doing when talking to Jaime. It does not need any explanation and it is perfectly normal and commendable.

Sure, you might have some secret backup plans for losing, maybe, but they are not what you talk about in public.

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Hmm, I was more under the impression that he was confident in winning because he thought he was the leader of the three heads of the dragon?

No by that point Rhaegar had already acknowldeged that he wasn't TPTWP, remember he tells Elia that he thinks Aegon was TPTWP.

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I've wondered if the visions that Dany saw in the HotU were pure, or if the warlocks, (who seemed hostile), manipulated them and they actually aren't a reflection of reality?

Perhaps this is setting the reader up for the potentially conflicting visions we might get from Bran regarding R+L.

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I think the uber-confidence thing is a load of bollocks propagated by the haters as just another reason to scorn him.

When you go to war, to smite a rebellion, you don't make public plans for losing. You make plans for winning, and assume an air of confidence, and plan for the positive future.

Thats all Rhaegar is doing when talking to Jaime. It does not need any explanation and it is perfectly normal and commendable.

Sure, you might have some secret backup plans for losing, maybe, but they are not what you talk about in public.

I don't see his confidence as hyperinflated, either, for the reasons you mention, but I somewhat wonder about the choice of the battlefield. Is there any explanation why Trident became the place of choice? Attacking across a river puts his forces at disadvantage.

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I don't see his confidence as hyperinflated, either, for the reasons you mention, but I somewhat wonder about the choice of the battlefield. Is there any explanation why Trident became the place of choice? Attacking across a river puts his forces at disadvantage.

Too much lack of information to reasonably speculate on that.

And while conventional tactics say attacking across a river confers a disadvantage, other factors can turn it into an advantage. The royal forces were winning the battle for most of it, until two key leaders were killed.

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Too much lack of information to reasonably speculate on that.

And while conventional tactics say attacking across a river confers a disadvantage, other factors can turn it into an advantage. The royal forces were winning the battle for most of it, until two key leaders were killed.

I do agree that the information is insufficient to base any reasonable assessment on. I was merely wondering about the levels of relevance of that particular dream.

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Chipping in my two cents:

1. Yeah, I don't understand the military logic of fighting at the Trident either. Unless it was just where their forces happened to meet.

2. One of the benefits of reading this series after/at the same time as devouring forums and wikis like this (because I have no worries being spoiled!) is that you see the clues you might otherwise have missed. Reading the books after reading the R + L = J theories.... It's just SO obvious! It has to be canon. I would bet my house on it.

The really intriguing factors for me are not who Jon's mother is, because I think this is all really obvious but:

- did Lyanna run off with Rhaegar or was she seized? Were they married or is Jon really as Targ bastard?

- what, if anything, is the significance of Rhaegar "seizing"/marrying Lyanna wilding style?

- if Dany and Jon are two heads of the dragon, who is the third?

I think it is a given that Dany or her dragons will be the final part of the fight against the Others. It just has to happen. It's logical and an awesome climax to the story. Jon and his knowledge as LC of NW would be invaluable. But who is the third rider? Tyrion? Aegon/FAegon? Stannis?

That's the more interesting question.

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