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R+L = J v 62


Stubby

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Stay? You mean what happens when Sansa Lannister reunites with her long lost true love? It will just like the end of "The princess bride." Jon will show up and be all like "hello, my name is Jon Snow you killed my father, prepare to die." LF will be like eeeek and run the other way, crazy chase ensues, Tyrion will outsmart Harry Humperdink and will be like you never said man and wife. Sansa will be like Tyrion my true love get me out of here, Tyrion will say "as you wish." Jon kills LF, Harry is left tied to a chair, Hodor shows up with 4 white horses, big kiss scene, que Mark Knopfler song. The end

Of course Tyrion will have to do the whole best Jon with steel thing and Jon of course uses a Valyrian sword made for his father like figure. Then he has to best Hodor with Strength which he will this is Tyrion we are laking about. Then he has to outsmart Vizzini ummm I mean Varys. Inconceivable Varys will say as they have a battle of wits.

I imagine Tyrion dreams the scene would look just like this http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U_eZmEiyTo0&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DU_eZmEiyTo0

Never go against a eunich when death is on the line.

I suppose I was channeling some of Martins old works like the TV show, "Beauty and the Beast," but then there is Sandor I suppose. But, it would come full circle for Sansa, the girl who use to see only the superficial now sees the substance.

I suppose that's one reason why I don't see her marrying a "pretty boy," or a "royal boy."

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I don't know, but I wonder too if Rhaegar had envisioned Lyanna, and thought at first Elia was that girl until he met Lyanna?

As for Mel and a historical parallel, she puts me in mind of an attractive, and female Rasputin given her influence over Sylyse and Stannis.

Mel, like Rasputin, is a "holy" woman with undue influence over the Berantheons and may be a systemic sign of Stannis and Sylyse being out of touch the way the Romonovs were perceived as being, and complicit in the downfall of the Berantheons.

That is very interesting. I had never thought of that, but it sure fits...

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So we have no idea whether the news of Lyanna's abduction reached Rickard or Brandon first?

ETA:

I'll take an educated guess if someone has one.

Educated guesses then...

1. We don't know where Lyanna was when she was 'taken'. It seems likely though that she was in the south, probably around the Riverlands. Brandon was due to be married there soon and it was an opportunity to get to know her future family. Other strong possibilities include being around the Stormlands - making those personal connections and forming those relationships that will be crucial to her in her future role as Lady Baratheon.

I think its likely that she stayed in the south after Harrenhal for one or both those reasons. Surely Rickard would recognise that for her future life and role she needs to spend time around southern noblewomen instead of being a wild northern tomboy with nothing but brothers around, not to mention form those important personal relationships and become 'known' amongst the southern nobility. Its also a lot more reasonable (story wise) to have Rhaegar have some opportunities to spend some time with her after Elia loses the ability to provide the third head of the dragon, and thats a huge amount easier if she is in the Riverlands or Stormlands. So is eloping together.

Therefore, an educated guess places her near or at Riverrun or somewhere else in the south when she is 'abducted'.

2. Given that educated guess, and the fact that Brandon was somewhere close by Riverrun, it seems likely that he probably heard whatever he heard before Rickard heard anything at all, or at the very least, reacted entirely independently. Its very difficult to reasonably see the news going all the way north to Rickard, then him responding all the way south again with directions to Brandon, then Brandon reacting the way he did.

My favourite (entirely speculative, and I don't think its likely to be true, but I love it) theory is that youth Littlefinger, leaving Riverrun, was the first witness, either with or without the complicity of R+L*, and he told Brandon first. Brandon explodes with rage, then Littlefinger sends a Raven to Rickard, possibly with an entirely different story to what he'd told Brandon. One of the main reasons I like this little gem is that it sets up Littlefinger's later MO of small lies creating random chaos that he benefits from. He modifies his 'report' to his rival Brandon slightly, Brandon reacts and gets himself brutally executed. Win for the shifty guy.

*possible scenario: LF comes across R+L doing their abduction thing, and Lyanna, knowing him from the time she'd spent over the last year at Riverrun gives him a message to her father. LF meets Brandon and passes him a distorted message, or an outright lie about what he'd 'seen' happening. Thus Brandon's reaction. LF then passes the real message by Raven to Rickard. Thus Rickard's lack of response to his daughter's abduction.

But all of this is, as requested, no more than educated guesses. We don't actually know, almost anything, exactly as Ygraine says.

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I suppose I was channeling some of Martins old works like the TV show, "Beauty and the Beast," but then there is Sandor I suppose. But, it would come full circle for Sansa, the girl who use to see only the superficial now sees the substance.

I suppose that's one reason why I don't see her marrying a "pretty boy," or a "royal boy."

Nay I was just wondering how Tyrion would like things to turn out and somehow Tyrion as Wesley in the Princess bride popped into my head.

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Martin just recently in a Q&A confirmed that LF had nothing to do with the rebellion and was recuperating from the duel with Brandon. Martin also confirmed that Brandon almost killed him.

Like I said, I didn't think it was true, just that I like it.

It still seems likely that whatever the full truth was, Brandon was acting on something else.

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Educated guesses then...

1. We don't know where Lyanna was when she was 'taken'. It seems likely though that she was in the south, probably around the Riverlands. Brandon was due to be married there soon and it was an opportunity to get to know her future family. Other strong possibilities include being around the Stormlands - making those personal connections and forming those relationships that will be crucial to her in her future role as Lady Baratheon.

I think its likely that she stayed in the south after Harrenhal for one or both those reasons. Surely Rickard would recognise that for her future life and role she needs to spend time around southern noblewomen instead of being a wild northern tomboy with nothing but brothers around, not to mention form those important personal relationships and become 'known' amongst the southern nobility. Its also a lot more reasonable (story wise) to have Rhaegar have some opportunities to spend some time with her after Elia loses the ability to provide the third head of the dragon, and thats a huge amount easier if she is in the Riverlands or Stormlands. So is eloping together.

Therefore, an educated guess places her near or at Riverrun or somewhere else in the south when she is 'abducted'.

2. Given that educated guess, and the fact that Brandon was somewhere close by Riverrun, it seems likely that he probably heard whatever he heard before Rickard heard anything at all, or at the very least, reacted entirely independently. Its very difficult to reasonably see the news going all the way north to Rickard, then him responding all the way south again with directions to Brandon, then Brandon reacting the way he did.

My favourite (entirely speculative, and I don't think its likely to be true, but I love it) theory is that youth Littlefinger, leaving Riverrun, was the first witness, either with or without the complicity of R+L*, and he told Brandon first. Brandon explodes with rage, then Littlefinger sends a Raven to Rickard, possibly with an entirely different story to what he'd told Brandon. One of the main reasons I like this little gem is that it sets up Littlefinger's later MO of small lies creating random chaos that he benefits from. He modifies his 'report' to his rival Brandon slightly, Brandon reacts and gets himself brutally executed. Win for the shifty guy.

*possible scenario: LF comes across R+L doing their abduction thing, and Lyanna, knowing him from the time she'd spent over the last year at Riverrun gives him a message to her father. LF meets Brandon and passes him a distorted message, or an outright lie about what he'd 'seen' happening. Thus Brandon's reaction. LF then passes the real message by Raven to Rickard. Thus Rickard's lack of response to his daughter's abduction.

But all of this is, as requested, no more than educated guesses. We don't actually know, almost anything, exactly as Ygraine says.

I thought you might be the first to take a plunge, corbon.

What do you want me to say? That I agree with pretty much every bit of your analysis?

Would you like to make an educated guess on the time it took for the news of Lyanna's abduction to reach Brandon?

I am trying to determine whether it would be more or less likely for Brandon to act the way he did had the news reached him soon after Lyanna was abducted. You know, perhaps he had to run after Lyanna because he had hopes of catching up to her abductors.

Also, since Brandon was on his way to Riverrun, Ned was with Jon Arryn (?), Lyanna was probably in the South, and there always needs to be a Stark in WF, does this mean either Rickard or Benjen was in WF? More likely Rickard than Benjen, yeah? Trying to put a picture together of where everyone was when the abduction took place. It is rather conspicuous that we have no idea where Benjen was either during this time.

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Ser Creighton, let me try to be precise, yet again. Skin changers have an ability that is limited. Cats and wolves/dogs are a special case that not all skin changers can achieve. Green seeing is another ability of skin changers, it is unrelated to their abilities as a skin changer. Until such time as we have proof that Brandon Rivers can skin change with a wolf/dog, he is NOT a warg. Is that clear?

ETA: The show only uses warg to refer to wargs, they do not refer to the Mormonts, or any other skin changers we know of, yet.

Actually the show describes Orell as a warg and they even wrote about them doing it here.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Warg

No it's not clear, I just gave you quotes from the book that say a greenseer can warg. You think Martin is wrong about his own books and your special rule that a greenseer can't which has no text support is right? Am I reading this correctly? I gave you the quote from the text.

Martin literally wrote they were, and I quoted it for you that greenseers are wargs but can take the skin of just about any animal. Bloodraven is a greenseer, "a 1000 eyes a 100 skins" Yet another quote about the ability to take more than one animal, directly applied to Bloodraven in dance. Bloodraven the "last of the Greenseers."

So according to Martin, the author of the series, written by his own hand a Greenseer can take the skin of just about any animal, and he writes that Bloodraven is a greenseer. Now whatever rule some fans may be floating I assure you it is not his rule about greenseers, nor has he ever said that. So I will take the author at his word when he says a greenseer can warg. Which is written in the books.

As for greenseeing being unrelated to skin changing, it's not, you have to be a skinchanger to be a greenseer so clearly they are connected, you can't be a greenseer and not a skinchanger.

"Close your eyes said the 3 eyed crow. Slip your skin as you do when join summer. But this time go into the roots instead. Follow them up through the earth, to the trees upon the hill, and tell me what you see."

Not related? It's the exact same method to enter a tree as it is an animal, again from the books. "Slip your skin as you do when you join Summer."

"Greenseeing is the next evolution of skinchanging." Except it's a plant and not an animal and you get the trees memories which are far older than an animals. But the process of entering the tree is identical to an animal.

Skinchanging with a wolf is not a rare gift among skinchangers in fact as pointed out in the prologue of dance they were the most numerous. What is unique about it is the strength of the bond, wolves bond for life and once you take a wolf it is part of you and you are part of it and you will both change from that day on.

The process to skinchange with a wolf, bear, shadowcat, bird, boar etc... Is all the same, even a tree, it's the strength of the user that decides how many, how easy, and what types of things you can enter. Greenseers are the strongest and most gifted of skinchangers, they are the highest evolution, the rarest and most powerful. "a 1000 eyes, a 100 skins." Bloodraven did not become a greenseer because he had a limited ability. He is a greenseer because he is the highest evolution of skinchanger. He is the next step in skinchanging, he is so powerful he has gone beyond just animals. The next step in skinchanging is greenseeing as stated in Brans last chapter of Dance, it's the ability to go beyond animals.

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I thought you might be the first to take a plunge, corbon.

What do you want me to say? That I agree with pretty much every bit of your analysis?

Would you like to make an educated guess on the time it took for the news of Lyanna's abduction to reach Brandon?

Well, you asked!

You don't need to agree or disagree, just providing a requested service.

My guess, and I wouldn't call this one educated, at least not as much as the preceding guesses is "not very long". A few days to a week at most. Just 'feels right' more than anything else, which is why I don't call it any more than a guess.

I am trying to determine whether it would be more or less likely for Brandon to act the way he did had the news reached him soon after Lyanna was abducted. You know, perhaps he had to run after Lyanna because he had hopes of catching up to her abductors.

I think educated guesses are as good as we have on this. I don't these guesses are quite as educated as the guesses that you asked for already though.

I do think its important to note that he does not, as far as we know, mention Lyanna at all when he reaches KL. I'm sure (in a 'its difficult to believe that it never came up the whole time' kind of way) that her name was mentioned, but not, apparently, in his initially grandstanding treason.

Also, since Brandon was on his way to Riverrun, Ned was with Jon Arryn (?), Lyanna was probably in the South, and there always needs to be a Stark in WF, does this mean either Rickard or Benjen was in WF? More likely Rickard than Benjen, yeah? Trying to put a picture together of where everyone was when the abduction took place. It is rather conspicuous that we have no idea where Benjen was either during this time.

We know Rickard 'came south with 200 men' IIRC, so he would have been the Stark in Winterfell at that time. Benjen would have been around 12-13 so its not surprising really that he isn't mentioned. He's just not a player in the ensuing drama, being too young and at most a passive "Stark in Winterfell" when Rickard and later Ned left (there is less reason for him to remain south after Harrenhal). Or maybe he was already south and there was no Stark in Winterfell when Rickard came south? We just don't have any data at all.

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" need not have any real, or mystical, overtones despite theories that abound here. It can easily be just a family saying/tradition reinforced by events where bad shit happened when there was no Stark in Winterfell - like Brandon and Rickard's fate.

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We know Rickard 'came south with 200 men' IIRC, so he would have been the Stark in Winterfell at that time. Benjen would have been around 12-13 so its not surprising really that he isn't mentioned. He's just not a player in the ensuing drama, being too young and at most a passive "Stark in Winterfell" when Rickard and later Ned left (there is less reason for him to remain south after Harrenhal). Or maybe he was already south and there was no Stark in Winterfell when Rickard came south? We just don't have any data at all.

Unless, of course, we infer from Bran's vision that Benjen was Lyanna's usual partner in crime and might have known about her plans with Rhaegar.

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Unless, of course, we infer from Bran's vision that Benjen was Lyanna's usual partner in crime and might have known about her plans with Rhaegar.

He 's still not a player, even in that case. His presence somewhere is not important, unless GRRM makes it so later.

Personally I think the Benjen theories are much overblown. Many readers feel the need for him to be deeply involved in something, but the story itself has no such need, so far at least.

Thats also looong inference being made on one sketchy scene several years earlier.

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I don't really think 'many readers feel the need for him to be deeply involved in something', but 'many readers need to get a GOOD reason for a first third son of the Starks, to a then second son, to be allowed to take the black pretty soon after half his family died and you'd think they would do more with one remaining second son, marrying him off to bannermen or keep him closer to Winterfell than letting him past the Wall to possibly get killed by Wildlings.'



One wrong germ in Winterfell and bam! No more Starks. You'd think with their history of 8,000 years they'd be more careful and have more than one spare around to keep the family alive.


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Like I said, I didn't think it was true, just that I like it.

It still seems likely that whatever the full truth was, Brandon was acting on something else.

Agreed.

I think my biggest take-away from Martins statement is that Brandon almost killed him, which I don't think I knew before.

It was inferred that LF was badly wounded, but if Brandons intent was to kill him, then LF has all the more reason to hate the Starks beyond the loss of Cat, and it highlights a ruthless streak in Brandon that may have been missing in Ned, and that one more difference between the brothers, I find intriguing.

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That is very interesting. I had never thought of that, but it sure fits...

I think the first thing that made me think of Rasputin was the fact that I believe if I remember correctly, Rasputin first ingratiated himself with the Czarina when he seemed to successfully treat her son, Tsarevich Alexi's hemophilia.

From there Czarina Alexandra seemed to be under his influence, which later spread to the Court, though I'm unsure how much influence he had on the Czar.

But we see in Mel a similar influence where Sylyse is her most ardent follower despite the inference of a sexual relationship between Mel and Stannis, which she likely could care less about.

From there you see her influence spread throughout their "Court" and beyond.

Rasputin also seems to have been more of a Sorcerer than a mere "holy man" as well. I understand he was pretty hard to kill.

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Ser Creighton, you should read the reference you gave to HBO's wiki. We deal with the books, almost exclusively on this board, and in these forums. Hints can be given in the screenplay, but Orell is partially based on Varamyr, since Jon killed Orell before he took Ygritte. Anyway, in the books, oh, let me quote it:


In the books

In the A Song of Ice and Fire novels, a "skinchanger" is a person with the ability to enter the mind of an animal and control its actions and perceive the world through their eyes. A "warg" is a skinchanger that does so with wolves. The TV series somewhat inaccurately describes Orell as a "warg" even when he is controlling an eagle.

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According to Norse mythology a vargr, or warg is specifically a wolf-like creature, and an evil one at that.



They are closely associated with Fenrir and his sons Skoll and Hati and use for their mounts actual wolves.



A skin changer, or in Native American legends, skin walker, can take the form of any animal, including a wolf, and are also considered evil. Even in modern Native American communities, it is still taboo to speak of them.


In order to become a skin walker, who is normally a shaman, they have to commit the greatest of sins amongst Native Americans, which is to kill their own kin, or be "kin slayer."



I think the two get a little conflated, but since two vastly different cultures identify these creatures as malevolent, and the Author may be referencing both myths, the back story of the Starks become even more interesting in terms of how and the origins of these abilities.



And don't get me wrong, even going all the way back to "Dangerous Women," the Starks are still grim but honorable, but like the Targaryens, the Starks too may have their baddies, which again I find intriguing and also brings the two families together in their complexities.



Skoll and Hati:



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/The_Wolves_Pursuing_Sol_and_Mani.jpg




Arya?:



http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/115/1/5/___warg____by_dark_hell-d4xkgv9.jpg


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And, according to Tolkein wargs are wolf like creatures that carry goblins or orcs on their backs. And, further they appear like hyenas in the movie. All unrelated to GRRM's works. ;)

Grr, don't even mention that abomination!

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And, according to Tolkein wargs are wolf like creatures that carry goblins or orcs on their backs. And, further they appear like hyenas in the movie. All unrelated to GRRM's works. ;)

And, according to mythical history the myths are what they are, and referencing history as well as historical myth is something the Author has been known to do.

The liberties that Tolkein took with these myths are his business. ;)

Edit: Warg and wolf, no goblins here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Hyrrokkin_by_Pietsch.jpg/250px-Hyrrokkin_by_Pietsch.jpg

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And, according to mythical history the myths are what they are, and referencing history as well as historical myth is something the Author has been known to do.

The liberties that Tolkein took with these myths are his business. ;)

Edit: Warg and wolf, no goblins here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Hyrrokkin_by_Pietsch.jpg/250px-Hyrrokkin_by_Pietsch.jpg

The author has been known to reference real and fictional characters of the modern era, as well.

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