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R+L = J v 62


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Everybody knows that Ned didn't have a bastard when he left Storms End? Exactly what makes you say that?

Fair enough, but you know what I mean.

I do, but I really feel the need to point out that this is not supported by the text. It is a reasonable assumption, but there is not a single person claiming that Jon hailed from Starfall. It is possible that Ned Dayne's mention of Wylla as Jon's mother entails that, but that doesn't mean that the knowledge ever spread from Starfall. As I have pointed out before, Ned spending a time at Starfall and producing a bastard of unknown origin while a young lady from Starfall known to have been dishonoured commits suicide soon afterwards is enough to form a sound basis for gossip.

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Okay, the good news is, the Ravens and "da Bears" had a great today.

The bad news is that Wun Wun's home team, the NY Giants did not, so expect a Blog from Martin later.

The performance of the Giants was so far beyond pitiful that I couldn't even muster any anger.

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I do, but I really feel the need to point out that this is not supported by the text. It is a reasonable assumption, but there is not a single person claiming that Jon hailed from Starfall. It is possible that Ned Dayne's mention of Wylla as Jon's mother entails that, but that doesn't mean that the knowledge ever spread from Starfall. As I have pointed out before, Ned spending a time at Starfall and producing a bastard of unknown origin while a young lady from Starfall known to have been dishonoured commits suicide soon afterwards is enough to form a sound basis for gossip.

But do we need to have one person claim that Jon is from Starfall in order to turn a reasonable "assumption" into a reasonable "inference"? Should this really be the standard required in order to support a "reasonable inference"?

For example, I know many posters have concluded that Lyanna willingly went with Rhaegar (myself included). I believe that this is a reasonable inference based upon many clues found in the text.

However, we don't have one character making this claim. To the contrary, we have characters claiming that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Thus, if our test for making an inference "reasonble" is whether a character makes an assertion, the claim that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar would fail the test.

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Yeah but what I am arguing is not Jon's presence at Starfall as such but the existence of the news of it spreading around Westeros. While there is the gossip that Ashara Dayne might have been Jon's mother, there is no direct reference to Ned bringing Jon from Starfall as a part of this rumour.

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I do, but I really feel the need to point out that this is not supported by the text. It is a reasonable assumption, but there is not a single person claiming that Jon hailed from Starfall. It is possible that Ned Dayne's mention of Wylla as Jon's mother entails that, but that doesn't mean that the knowledge ever spread from Starfall. As I have pointed out before, Ned spending a time at Starfall and producing a bastard of unknown origin while a young lady from Starfall known to have been dishonoured commits suicide soon afterwards is enough to form a sound basis for gossip.

There are a number of people claiming, or rather, assuming, that Jon's mother came from Starfall though, and 'know' that she died in Starfall. Therefore, its the same assumption that they are already making, more or less, that Jon 'came from' Starfall.

In other words, by thinking N+A=J, while knowing Ashara wasn't at Winterfell, implicitly they are thinking Jon came from Starfall. Which ties in with Ned being their and Ashara committing suicide there. Its all the same assumption.

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Yeah but what I am arguing is not Jon's presence at Starfall as such but the existence of the news of it spreading around Westeros. While there is the gossip that Ashara Dayne might have been Jon's mother, there is no direct reference to Ned bringing Jon from Starfall as a part of this rumour.

But do we need a direct reference to Ned bringing Jon from Starfall in order to support such an assumption? Like Corbon said in his last post, if people are gossiping N + A = J, it's reasonable to assume/infer that those same people believe that Jon came from Starfall.

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Yeah but what I am arguing is not Jon's presence at Starfall as such but the existence of the news of it spreading around Westeros. While there is the gossip that Ashara Dayne might have been Jon's mother, there is no direct reference to Ned bringing Jon from Starfall as a part of this rumour.

It may be because it was the first time Jon had been seen by anyone but Ned and Howland. So people might think Jon came from there.

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The performance of the Giants was so far beyond pitiful that I couldn't even muster any anger.

I KNOW. :bang:

And I can just envision you, your little boy, and the cat, huddled around the television, hoping for something, ANYTHING.........

As I said, expect a blog from "Not a Blog."

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I KNOW. :bang:

And I can just envision you, your little boy, and the cat, huddled around the television, hoping for something, ANYTHING.........

As I said, expect a blog from "Not a Blog."

:D Well, my "little boy" is not so little anymore. He's only 11 but he's 5'2" and weighs 124 pounds.

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It occurs to me in observing the current conversation, another aspect of Neds protection of others honor.

Since it's my opinion that it was Brandon who "dishonored" Ashara, Ned also takes that hit to his own honor in accommodating the gossip of himself and Ashara, because of what it might have done to Cat to realize the man she might have married, seduced another woman, possibly fathering a child on her.

I also wonder too if Ned would have allowed Asharas name be associated with his dishonor in allowing some, like Cersei, to speculate it was Ashara rather than a common fishermans daughter, if he didn't know her to be dead?

Unless they have a conversation at Starfall whereby he said:

"Okay, pretend to die, so I can allow everyone to think you are Jons mother by me, for a cover."

"I know it doesn't do your reputation much good, but, lets face it, it was damaged already, so can you take another for the team and just disappear?"

Somehow, I don't see Ned doing that to someone else unless he thought she was dead and it wouldn't matter to her anymore.

Lady Gwynhyfvar made a great parallel comparison between Ashara Dayne and the Lady of Shalott and Lancelot and Brandon. Lancelot rejected the Lady of Shalott, and dying of a broken heart, she becomes a romantic figure, rather than a scorned figure. So too would Ashara, accept it's the wrong brother, but in death, she becomes a romantic martyr and a safe cover as another potential mother for Jon.

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It occurs to me in observing the current conversation, another aspect of Neds protection of others honor.

Since it's my opinion that it was Brandon who "dishonored" Ashara, Ned also takes that hit to his own honor in accommodating the gossip of himself and Ashara, because of what it might have done to Cat to realize the man she might have married, seduced another woman, possiblely fathering a child on her.

I also wonder too if Ned would have allowed Asharas name be associated with his dishonor in allowing some, like Cersei, to speculate it was her rather than a common fishermans daughter, if he didn't know her to be dead?

Unless they have a conversation at Starfall whereby he said:

"Okay, pretend to die, so I can allow everyone to think you are Jons mother by me, for a cover."

"I know it doesn't do your reputation much good, but, lets face it, it was damaged already, so can you take another for the team and just disappear?"

Somehow, I don't see Ned doing that to someone else unless he thought she was dead and it wouldn't matter to her anymore.

Lady Gwynhyfvar made a great parallel comparison between Ashara Dayne and the Lady of Shalott and Lancelot and Brandon. Lancelot rejected the Lady of Shalott, and dying of a broken heart, she becomes a romantic figure, rather than a scorned figure. So too would Ashara, accept it's the wrong brother and in death, she becomes a romantic martyr and a safe cover as another potential mother for Jon.

It is an interesting parallel.

Personally, I like the idea of two contrasting examples of "tragic" love involving the Starks;

We have Lyanna Stark with her "wolf's blood" throwing away Westerosi convention and running away with her true love, Rhaegar

In contrast, we have Ned Stark who follows Westerosi convention and marries Catelyn instead of finding a way to be with Ashara (the idea that Ned and Ashara were in love is most likely just in my fantasies I know :P ).

The irony about all of this of course is that the rest of Westeros doesn't know the truth; much of Westeros believes that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna while Ned dishonored Catelyn by having an affair with Ashara that resulted in her giving birth to Jon Snow. Ned allows the people of Westeros to believe all of this because it permits him to honor the promise he made to Lyanna to protect her son.

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There are a number of people claiming, or rather, assuming, that Jon's mother came from Starfall though, and 'know' that she died in Starfall. Therefore, its the same assumption that they are already making, more or less, that Jon 'came from' Starfall.

In other words, by thinking N+A=J, while knowing Ashara wasn't at Winterfell, implicitly they are thinking Jon came from Starfall. Which ties in with Ned being their and Ashara committing suicide there. Its all the same assumption.

But do we need a direct reference to Ned bringing Jon from Starfall in order to support such an assumption? Like Corbon said in his last post, if people are gossiping N + A = J, it's reasonable to assume/infer that those same people believe that Jon came from Starfall.

It may be because it was the first time Jon had been seen by anyone but Ned and Howland. So people might think Jon came from there.

I'm sorry, I'm not in the best shape these days so I guess I'm not expressing myself correctly. What I'm aiming at is that we neither know whether there is a rumour that Jon comes from Starfall, nor if there is an actual substance to the rumour, i.e. knowledge of the fact that Jon was seen at Starfall.

Cersei connects Jon to the South but not to Starfall specifically (Ashara or some housewife); Catelyn's PoV is very specific about the rumours that the soldiers brought (the single combat with Dayne, return of the Dawn and Ashara's description) but not a single mention of bringing Jon from Starfall. In concord with this, Harwin places the supposed romance solely to Harrenhall and doubts there is any substance to it, i.e. doesn't connect Jon to the trip to Starfall, either. Finally, Sansa's PoV mentions rumours of Jon being commonborn, which again doesn't point to Starfall, so I am thinking that connection between Jon and Starfall wasn't known for a fact.

- If I'm not making sense here, feel free to ignore me, I supppose I'd better leave this be.

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It is an interesting parallel.

Personally, I like the idea of two contrasting examples of "tragic" love involving the Starks;

We have Lyanna Stark with her "wolf's blood" throwing away Westerosi convention and running away with her true love, Rhaegar

In contrast, we have Ned Stark who follows Westerosi convention and marries Catelyn instead of finding a way to be with Ashara (the idea that Ned and Ashara were in love is most likely just in my fantasies I know :P ).

The irony about all of this of course is that the rest of Westeros doesn't know the truth; much of Westeros believes that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna while Ned dishonored Catelyn by having an affair with Ashara that resulted in her giving birth to Jon Snow. Ned allows the people of Westeros to believe all of this because it permits him to honor the promise he made to Lyanna to protect her son.

You know what I think? I do think that Ned and Ashara probably had the closest thing to a friendship that you could have in those days as men and women just didn't have those types of relationships due to perceptions of gender roles.

And if it makes you feel any better, I do tend to think his feelings for Ashara were exaggerated. While he might have been "bedazzled" by Ashara and her attentions, I think he soon realized who Ashara really loved, and got past it. Though perhaps it was another straw on the camels back in his resentment of Brandon, even while he loved him.

Selmy thinks of her more romantically than Ned, who doesn't seem to think of her at all in his POV.

But, I do think he and Ashara were "friends,"and he would have helped if he could and married her just as he did with Cat, (in both cases, he steps in his brothers place).

I also think she is the possible missing link in the information flow between the TOJ and Ned.

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I'm sorry, I'm not in the best shape these days so I guess I'm not expressing myself correctly. What I'm aiming at is that we neither know whether there is a rumour that Jon comes from Starfall, nor if there is an actual substance to the rumour, i.e. knowledge of the fact that Jon was seen at Starfall.

Cersei connects Jon to the South but not to Starfall specifically (Ashara or some housewife); Catelyn's PoV is very specific about the rumours that the soldiers brought (the single combat with Dayne, return of the Dawn and Ashara's description) but not a single mention of bringing Jon from Starfall. In concord with this, Harwin places the supposed romance solely to Harrenhall and doubts there is any substance to it, i.e. doesn't connect Jon to the trip to Starfall, either. Finally, Sansa's PoV mentions rumours of Jon being commonborn, which again doesn't point to Starfall, so I am thinking that connection between Jon and Starfall wasn't known for a fact.

- If I'm not making sense here, feel free to ignore me, I supppose I'd better leave this be.

No, you make sense.

Although it could be because people think Ashara is Jon's mother (and she's from Starfall) is when they make the Starfall connection. Cersei says to Ned, "Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told." Ashara is only said to have thrown herself from the tower at Starfall.

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I'm sorry, I'm not in the best shape these days so I guess I'm not expressing myself correctly. What I'm aiming at is that we neither know whether there is a rumour that Jon comes from Starfall, nor if there is an actual substance to the rumour, i.e. knowledge of the fact that Jon was seen at Starfall.

Cersei connects Jon to the South but not to Starfall specifically (Ashara or some housewife); Catelyn's PoV is very specific about the rumours that the soldiers brought (the single combat with Dayne, return of the Dawn and Ashara's description) but not a single mention of bringing Jon from Starfall. In concord with this, Harwin places the supposed romance solely to Harrenhall and doubts there is any substance to it, i.e. doesn't connect Jon to the trip to Starfall, either. Finally, Sansa's PoV mentions rumours of Jon being commonborn, which again doesn't point to Starfall, so I am thinking that connection between Jon and Starfall wasn't known for a fact.

- If I'm not making sense here, feel free to ignore me, I supppose I'd better leave this be.

Sorry to hear that you are not feeling well.

You are correct that there is nothing in any of the books that mentions a rumor circulating around Westeros that Jon came from Starfall. However, I am not disputing this fact (and I don't believe Corbon is either).

Rather, what I am questioning is whether we need such a specific textual reference in order to reasonably assume that such a rumor existed (keeping in mind that we are only talking about those people that heard the rumor that Ashara was Jon's mother). In other words, do we really need a specific textual reference to a rumor that Ned took custody of Jon at Starfall in order to make this assumption? IMO, we don't.

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Sorry for the newbie Q, but I'm not sure how I'd even find this buried in the previous 62 threads...

Has it been discussed that Ned may have known what was happening with Rhaegar all along -- that he could actually have been complicit or had foreknowledge -- and that's what's driving his guilt?

Very little evidence, admittedly. But my thinking is based on...

1) Who else might the 'dutiful' and 'honorable' Rhaegar have turned to, but one like himself? Or perhaps Lyanna told Ned ahead of time?

2) As far as I can tell, Ned never agrees with anyone that suggests Lyanna was raped or kidnapped and still thinks well of Rhaegar. Why not/why?

3) If Eddard knew that Rhaegar had fathered a child on Lyanna to 'save the world' he'd have an incentive to promise to keep Lyanna's secret. Why would he agree to protect Jon, a bastard, when the circumstances of his conception had resulted in the death of half Ned's family and sparked a war? By the time Ned gets to the tower he'd have been aware of those consequences. Why agree to the promise unless there's a much larger, dutiful, reason to do so?

4) Finally -- this is the big one. Why would Ned's guilt be so overwhelming if all he'd done was hide Jon after the rebellion was over? It's a deception to be sure, but his level of existential guilt lines up more with letting your father and brother ride to their deaths and for the realm to be sundered on the basis of something you know is not true -- namely that Rhaegar neither abducted nor raped Lyanna. IMO keeping quiet after the fact would seem to be much smaller than his anguish is portrayed in the books.

Again, apologies if this has been covered already and I'm rehashing things. And if so, if someone would please point me to the discussion I'd be grateful!

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Somehow off the current topic but I have red many posts about - Rhaegar knew that he has to make a child with Lyanna. And i just have a question - was it stated somewhere in the book that he actually knew that? If it is that i have truly missed it and would be very grateful for a reference. It would be queer for a man (Rhaegar) to walk (kidnap or what ever) to a woman (Lyanna) and say - we have to have a baby because he will save the world.

I somehow have a feeling that all these prophecies are coming true all by them selves and without any involved person actually realizing it. And only that way - so nobody can meaningfully take a part. AND i also believe that IF Jon is the promised savior (AA or the Prince or any other) he should be as incarnation of love between ice and fire not well.. raping.

Also :D - Ned probably knew that Lyanna loved Rhaegar and that's why he protected Jon and kept protecting him because her lasts words were something like - promise me not to tell anybody and keep him safe etc. And he did it just because he loved his sister. What would Robert have done if had known so Ned could not reveal it anyhow for the sake of the boy or the king.

I bet it all has been written a thousand times and one but somehow there are really a lot of posts about both Ned and Rhaegar knowing things i personally believe they did not.

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