Conversation with a Dying Man: the exact wording of Varys and Kevan's talk

[Tommens Cat]

Why does Varys explain anything to Kevan at all? Why not loose another bolt and be done with it?

I still argue that Varys isn't misleading Kevan. He's letting Kevan believe what Kevan believes.

The semantics is actually important wrt Varys' lines throughout. I wouldn't be so absorbed with the phrasing and technical truth nature of this if most of the other characters uttered these lines.

plus, Qyburn has been MoW since Varys departure, Varys knows how the game is played, maybe he knows Qyburn has ears in Kevans residence. that could be a plausible explanation of why Varys indulges Kevan just before he dies.

[UVA]

Some opinions are given with reasons to support them. As when someone offers a textual basis for their argument. Other opinions are just obnoxious assertions offered without reason, as when you accuse the person offering textual basis for their argument of being 'deluded,' presumably to mask your inability to offer a contrary textually based argument.

To be fair Onion, I think juanml82 does offer a counter point of sorts in this regard:

In a series as long as this one, plenty of things can "stablish precedent". It doesn't mean everything Varys says is a private joke.

The problem, however, is this point is nonsensical (including the "private joke" assessment) because if this were true we wouldn't be able to make heads or tails of any character in the series since there are far too many precedent-establishing examples. But really, any well-balanced, rational approach to the text would accept the OP's Varys-Ned example as key to any analysis of Varys' character, and in particular, sets up a modus operandi for his speech to Kevan.

[Maxpey]

It's not a blatant lie. Ser Kevan asks a leading question when he says "Aegon?" and Varys seizes on that knowing full well they are talking about two different Aegons.

It's not the same thing. Kevan asks a leading question. Varys poses Ned a riddle. Varys does riddles.

EDIT:

I've never argued Varys might be toying with Kevan in this moment. I'm just not fully convinced he is (yes, I've always seen the dialogue has been written to be misleading).

I think the true mystery of the scene is just why in the seven hells is Varys confessing to his plans to Ser Kevan?

But you conveniently omitted the rest of Kevan's response, the part where he says "Dead. He's dead." That is crucial information which makes it absolutely clear that Kevan believes the Aegon Varys is talking about is Rhaegar's supposedly dead son. How many other dead Aegons are out there?

And what is Varys's response to Kevan's claim that Rhaegar's son is dead? "No. . ." In other words, Kevan you're wrong, Aegon, Rhaegar's son, is not dead.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

But that's not a comparable example because in the context in which the conversation takes place it's clear that Kevan is talking about Aegar, Rhaegar's son, being dead. More importantly, it's clear from his response that Varys knows that Kevan is referring to Rhaegar's son, not somebody that happens to have the same name.

Yes of course Varys knows that Kevan is talking about Rhaegar's son. However, Varys is talking about the lad Formerly Known As Young Griff. That's who Varys' statement "No. He is here" is referring to. Kevan simply made an assumption about who Varys was talking about and Varys didn't correct him.

I know I've been ninja'ed but one of my own favorite jokes is to tell people that I was born in Moscow. It's absolutely the truth. If a listener happens to assume that I mean Moscow in Russia, that is their responsibility for jumping to that conclusion. (It's the one in Idaho, btw.)

Great post, Butterbumps!

[Tommens Cat]

But that's not a comparable example because in the context in which the conversation takes place it's clear that Kevan is talking about Aegar, Rhaegar's son, being dead. More importantly, it's clear from his response that Varys knows that Kevan is referring to Rhaegar's son, not somebody that happens to have the same name.

ok so i knew a Lebron, and a person says to me

"Lebron James should be president he is such a good guy."

i say, "Good guy?! I knew Lebron James in HS, and he was a dick, always beating the nerds up and purposefully spreading STD's."

"You knew Lebron??"

me, "Sure did, smoked pot with him a couple times!"

person, "WOAH man youre cool!"

me, "thanks!"

did i lie? i knew he was talking about another person, but i did know Lebron James and he did beat up nerds and smoke weed a lot.... the question is a subjective one, and thus can not be proved right or wrong either way, IMO. so im not say i am NOT lying, but i am also not say that i DID lie, its grey. not that i agree, and its not HONEST, but not a LIE either.

[RoamingRonin]

But you conveniently omitted the rest of Kevan's response, the part where he says "Dead. He's dead." That is crucial information which makes it absolutely clear that Kevan believes the Aegon Varys is talking about is Rhaegar's supposedly dead son. How many other dead Aegons are out there?

And what is Varys's response to Kevan's claim that Rhaegar's son is dead? "No. . ." In other words, Kevan you're wrong, Aegon, Rhaegar's son, is not dead.

That's exactly the point, though. Kevan is talking about the dead child he saw in the throne room (Aegon) while Varys is talking about (f)Aegon. Varys knows Kevan is talking about a completely different person. He's deliberately misleading him.

[Bolivar]

Yeah guys this is such hair splitting and reading way too far when it's very obvious on the face of it that they're talking about the same guy. You don't have to be upset because not everyone shares the same theories as you. A big part of what makes ASoIaF the series it is comes from the joy of reading and being surprised. You undermine that by being so "matter of fact" about your reading of the text. I'm sure George loves having enthusiastic readers hypothesizing the nuances of his stories, but when you start arguing away the text, it gets to be a bit much (like those who say Dany is delirious and lying about being unburned at the end of Dance)

[Tommens Cat]

Yeah guys this is such hair splitting and reading way too far when it's very obvious on the face of it that they're talking about the same guy. You don't have to be upset because not everyone shares the same theories as you. A big part of what makes ASoIaF the series it is comes from the joy of reading and being surprised. You undermine that by being so "matter of fact" about your reading of the text. I'm sure George loves having enthusiastic readers hypothesizing the nuances of his stories, but when you start arguing away the text, it gets to be a bit much (like those who say Dany is delirious and lying about being unburned at the end of Dance)

i think the reason for the debate is that the text should have implications within the story and not just show up for the reader. so if Varys does not have any motive to tell Kevan the passage becomes redundant and not of use to the story or the reader. so there has to be more than what is taken at face value, for we, as readers, take things at face value, but the characters within the universe should have to make their own judgements of events and those influence the future of the story. in this we must trust GRRM to add only important info and not one just to spark debate without a real solution, there has to be some solution, otherwise, why add the epilogue?

[RoamingRonin]

Yeah guys this is such hair splitting and reading way too far when it's very obvious on the face of it that they're talking about the same guy. You don't have to be upset because not everyone shares the same theories as you. A big part of what makes ASoIaF the series it is comes from the joy of reading and being surprised. You undermine that by being so "matter of fact" about your reading of the text. I'm sure George loves having enthusiastic readers hypothesizing the nuances of his stories, but when you start arguing away the text, it gets to be a bit much (like those who say Dany is delirious and lying about being unburned at the end of Dance)

I think, if anything, the text allows for the two interpretations to be valid. Which was probably the author's intention.

[butterbumps!]

Yeah guys this is such hair splitting and reading way too far when it's very obvious on the face of it that they're talking about the same guy.

Well, no, that's sort of the point. It's established that Varys speaks in half truths and technical truths, and usually doesn't confirm or correct mistakes by any number of listeners.

You don't have to be upset because not everyone shares the same theories as you.

Well, thing is, I'm not actually advocating any theory here. You don't have to be upset when you find you have nothing to contribute, and instead, try to undermine a pretty straightforward issue with the "you're reading too much into this" retort.

A big part of what makes ASoIaF the series it is comes from the joy of reading and being surprised. You undermine that by being so "matter of fact" about your reading of the text.

I can't believe you're taking issue with the presentation of a passage-- not to put forward any theory-- but to clear up some mistaken ideas about what's written. At the very least, it puts the fact that Varys does not actually state anything about Rhaeger's son in the open, because given a few recent threads, I think that's the common assumption.

Also, the irony of your post is that I'm positing that we do take the "face value" reading of this. And in doing so, we see that the actual words exchanged don't pertain to Aegon's parentage.

But that's not the argument butterbumps! is making in the OP. She is not claiming that Varys knows that Kevan is thinking about Aegon, Rhaegar's son and he deliberately misleads him. Quite the contrary; she claims that because Varys never knew that Kevan was thinking about Rhaegar's son, he didn't know for sure that Kevan's response "he's dead" meant Kevan was talking about Rhaegar's son. In other words, she argues that because Varys couldn't know for sure which Aegon Kevan was referring to, then Varys claim that Aegon is alive technically wasn't a lie.

Maxpey, no, that's not what I claimed, and in fact already addressed one of your previous posts stating that yes, of course Varys knows that Kevan is thinking of Aegon as Rhaeger's son. The issue is in what's actually being stated-- the referent that's articulated is Aegon at Storm's End, independently of an identity of Rhaeger's son.

[Maxpey]

That's exactly the point, though. Kevan is talking about the dead child he saw in the throne room (Aegon) while Varys is talking about (f)Aegon. Varys knows Kevan is talking about a completely different person. He's deliberately misleading him.

But that's not the argument butterbumps! is making in the OP. She is not claiming that Varys knows that Kevan is thinking about Aegon, Rhaegar's son and he deliberately misleads him. Quite the contrary; she claims that because Varys never knew that Kevan was thinking about Rhaegar's son, he didn't know for sure that Kevan's response "he's dead" meant Kevan was talking about Rhaegar's son. In other words, she argues that because Varys couldn't know for sure which Aegon Kevan was referring to, then Varys claim that Aegon is alive technically wasn't a lie.

My point is that in order to reach this conclusion, you have to disregard the context of the conversation and parse the meaning of Kevan's response to such an extent that it wasn't reasonable for Varys to know for sure whether Kevan meant Rhaegar's son when he said "No. Dead. He's dead" That's the only way this argument works, at least IMO.

[Wise Fool]

Relatedly is the deepening of Varys' voice. Many readers take Varys' voice deepening to imply that he's telling the truth. Of particular interest, however, is the other major time Varys' voice deepens: when describing his cutting and hatred of magic. Varys reveals his background, and concludes with: "All I can say for a certainty is that he called it, and it answered, and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it. If Lord Stannis is one such, I mean to see him dead.” We know that this is a lie, though, or at least a "half-truth." We know that Varys works with Illyrio, who keeps a Red Priest around in his service. Yet, Varys claims to hate magic and all who practice it, like Stannis, who also keeps a Red Priest around.

No lie, nor half truth. Just because Mel practices magic doesn't mean all Red Priests practice magic. Thoros was a Red Priest after all, and he didn't practice any kind of magic until and unless an actual miracle seemed to happen to him. We have no way of knowing, so it is wrong to assume, that Illyrio's red priest is being used the same way Stannis uses Mel.

Besides which, even if Illyrio's red priest was a magic user, that doesn't mean that Varys doesn't hate him. Maybe Varys hates Illyrio himself. Varys is subtle and patient, and seems perfectly capable of hating someone without necessarily doing anything about it.

[Northernmonkey]

So Butterbumps - do you believe that Varys was deliberately trying to mislead Kevan?

[aceluby]

My biggest thing is forget the text, why even HAVE a conversation w/ Kevan? What does Varys get out of that conversation? What about Kevan? Before parsing words and semantics, THESE are the questions that bear the most light.

IMO, this was put there to deliberately mislead the reader into thinking Aegon is real.

[Jon of the Dead]

Varys is not lying to Kevan: that boy about to attack Storm's End is, for all purposes, Aegon Targaryen. Why? Because power is a lie. Even if he is some random Blackfyre descendant, Varys will say he's Aegon and people will think he's Aegon, so, until proven otherwise, for Varys, he's Aegon, and very much alive.

As for the red priests business, I still think that was a way for Varys to manipulate Tyrion

See, to convince Ned to surrender in order to stall the war, Varys uses the "I serve the realm" thing, an argument that would surely work on an honorable man like Ned

That argument wouldn't have worked on Tyrion, as he would've seen through the lie. Varys needed Tyrion to be truly and deeply scared of the idea of Stannis taking the throne. If Stannis had won Blackwater, war would be over. So Varys tells him the little story to:

1) Make him a little more wary of magic (i.e. Melisandre)

2) Gaining his trust with a "real" story so he can believe other lies like "your sister told Mandon Moore to kill you"

Anyway, that's my 2 cents :dunno:

[butterbumps!]

So Butterbumps - do you believe that Varys was deliberately trying to mislead Kevan?

I don't think there's really much "deliberate" misleading happening. It's a pretty passive form of misleading-- the omission of correction, if Aegon isn't real. That's really the crux of the issue.

Instead of focusing on "why would Varys allow a dying man to be mislead," I think the more important question is why Varys is even taking the time to do this at all? Why explain anything to a dying man.

Varys is not lying to Kevan: that boy about to attack Storm's End is, for all purposes, Aegon Targaryen. Why? Because power is a lie. Even if he is some random Blackfyre descendant, Varys will say he's Aegon and people will think he's Aegon, so, until proven otherwise, for Varys, he's Aegon, and very much alive.

As for the red priests business, I still think that was a way for Varys to manipulate Tyrion

See, to convince Ned to surrender in order to stall the war, Varys uses the "I serve the realm" thing, an argument that would surely work on an honorable man like Ned

That argument wouldn't have worked on Tyrion, as he would've seen through the lie. Varys needed Tyrion to be truly and deeply scared of the idea of Stannis taking the throne. If Stannis had won Blackwater, war would be over. So Varys tells him the little story to:

1) Make him a little more wary of magic (i.e. Melisandre)

2) Gaining his trust with a "real" story so he can believe other lies like "your sister told Mandon Moore to kill you"

Anyway, that's my 2 cents :dunno:

Yes, that's what I suspect-- he used something that looked like a heartfelt confession as a persuasion technique.

[Northernmonkey]

I don't think there's really much "deliberate" misleading happening. It's a pretty passive form of misleading-- the omission of correction, if Aegon isn't real. That's really the crux of the issue.

This is where I have a big problem with your argument. Varys is one of the cleverest people in the realm, and a master manipulator. If Kevan was misled by his conversation with Varys, then that's because Varys deliberately meant that to happen.

Or are you claiming that it was simply a misunderstanding betwen Varys and Kevan?

[Tommens Cat]

My biggest thing is forget the text, why even HAVE a conversation w/ Kevan? What does Varys get out of that conversation? What about Kevan? Before parsing words and semantics, THESE are the questions that bear the most light.

IMO, this was put there to deliberately mislead the reader into thinking Aegon is real.

but that would compromise the intergrity of the story. to put things into a story that the people within the set universe can not comprehend of have no consequence makes the story weak. all facts, if done fight, should have value to the reader and the characters.

so, my question is as stated above, why have Varys say anything to Kevan? Did he talk to Pycelle? I cant believe GRRM would put something into the story that only holds value for readers an not characters within the set universe.

[outofthecage]

I think, if anything, the text allows for the two interpretations to be valid. Which was probably the author's intention.

I totally agree with this. It doesn't really matter much to me whether Aegon is real or not. I'm curious to know, but I have no preference for one outcome or the other. I think so long as he gets to the throne and the people believe, it won't make a lick of difference.

[Northernmonkey]

so, my question is as stated above, why have Varys say anything to Kevan? Did he talk to Pycelle? I cant believe GRRM would put something into the story that only holds value for readers an not characters within the set universe.

To be honest, I think you might have hit the nail on the head. Varys explained his plan to Kevan so the readers knew his motivation. If it was real life then obviously Varys would disappear straight away in case some one caught him, but in the world of books and films, the bad guy always explains his plan.