Conversation with a Dying Man: the exact wording of Varys and Kevan's talk

[Lord Flashheart]

No one is asking you to invest any more time into reading ASoIaF or posting on the forum than you want to invest. To the contrary, I'm sure at least a few of us would prefer if you invested even less time than you seem to want to invest. The point of contention here is that you refuse to engage on the level of the OP, but want to throw insults anyway. "I don't want to invest time in providing textual support for my opinions therefore the OP is deluded" is not a valid argument.

Well said. These books come out every 5 years or so. So if you don't want to spend time "over analyzing" things you may be on the wrong site.

[Dr. Pepper]

I don't know, and care little, as to when, where and how you guys enter this forum. I mostly do it in my idle times at work, and I do it to do something mildly entertaining with that spare time. I certainly don't live for this forum. I'm not going to download digital copies of the books into my work computer to "win" an Internet discussion nor will I reread thousands of pages, while at work, to look for particular quotes.

If that's what you guys do with your time and you like it, fine for you. I definitely don't live for this forum or GRRM's works.

...

For some strange reason, my boss doesn't pay me to reread books at work.

Ah, you poor thing. Would you like a hug because your boss is so mean and won't let you read at work? Or a hug because your memory is quite poor and you can't recall even one example from the book to back up your claim?

But, what if I did, and didn't find any?

If you don't find anything, it probably means your opinion is just made up bullshit.

[butterbumps!]

loud noises

What is your issue, seriously? This is a paraphrase of your "arguments"

1. You don't have time to devote to supporting your positions, so you choose to insult those who conceivably do

2. Despite the fact that you state you don't have time to put effort into your arguments, you insist that arguments with more support than yours are wrong for some unstated reason.

3. You accuse me of some weird complex that compels me to come on here for the sake of "winning" arguments because I use a matter of fact tone and textual evidence. Isn't textual evidence pretty much the way to discuss anything?

If you're so bothered by those who use the text to support their cases, why do you insist on coming into threads like this merely to take a highly combative tone and start insulting those who do? You know, if you asked politely (instead of going off the rails and just screaming), me or someone else would have provided you with quotes from Varys to save you the trouble of having to apparently "reread" the whole series to build your case.

So, can you just, like, chill out? If you can't support your position, and the thought of asking for clarification and direction is beneath you, why not move on to another thread?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't know, and care little, as to when, where and how you guys enter this forum. I mostly do it in my idle times at work, and I do it to do something mildly entertaining with that spare time. I certainly don't live for this forum. I'm not going to download digital copies of the books into my work computer to "win" an Internet discussion nor will I reread thousands of pages, while at work, to look for particular quotes.

If that's what you guys do with your time and you like it, fine for you. I definitely don't live for this forum or GRRM's works.

Are you freaking kidding with this?

If you can't support your argument, that's your problem. But cool it with the passive aggressive backhanded crap, OK?

[Ramsay B.]

I've always believed what OP wrote. It's Varys and GRRM had Varys word his conversation the way he did, and always does, for a reason.

[ServantOnIce]

First, I want to specify that I'm not trying to argue an "Aegon is fake" platform. And sorry for yet another Aegon thread (the other one is going to close soon though).

Dr P and I wanted to create a PSA of sorts to show that the passage in the Epilogue that is most frequently cited as proof that Aegon is real does not actually say what many posters assume it does. Please note that we are not challenging the notion that Aegon could be real, but rather, pointing out that this passage does not actually provide the sort of slam-dunk evidence in favor of "Real!" that it's so often cited as being.

Here is the passage:

Look at the words that are actually being exchanged:

Varys: "...Aegon raises his banner above Storm's End and the lords of the realm gather around him."

Kevan: "Aegon? Dead. He's dead."

Varys: "No. He is here."

The thoughts about the bloody dashed boy exist in Kevan's mind only. The referent that is actually being discussed is the "Aegon" who has landed at Storm's End. Kevan connects this to baby Aegon in his mind, but Varys does not actually confirm those thoughts, as these thoughts are not articulated by Kevan. All Kevan says is that Aegon "is dead," to which Varys replies, "no, he's here." The "Aegon" who is currently storming the east is obviously not dead.

If Aegon is fake, then Varys has told no lie. Additionally, Varys notoriously uses "technical truths" and double speak, playing with the listener's expectations of referents. Look at Varys' exchange with Ned about Jon Arryn's poisoner: “There was one boy. All he was, he owed Jon Arryn, but when the widow fled to the Eyrie with her household, he stayed in King’s Landing and prospered. It always gladdens my heart to see the young rise in the world.” Varys lets Ned believe he's talking about Hugh the squire, when in fact Varys is revealing the true poisoner as LF, another "boy" who "owed Jon for all he was."

Relatedly is the deepening of Varys' voice. Many readers take Varys' voice deepening to imply that he's telling the truth. Of particular interest, however, is the other major time Varys' voice deepens: when describing his cutting and hatred of magic. Varys reveals his background, and concludes with: "All I can say for a certainty is that he called it, and it answered, and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it. If Lord Stannis is one such, I mean to see him dead.” We know that this is a lie, though, or at least a "half-truth." We know that Varys works with Illyrio, who keeps a Red Priest around in his service. Yet, Varys claims to hate magic and all who practice it, like Stannis, who also keeps a Red Priest around. The deepening voice is not a sign of transparent truthfulness it is often taken to be, at least, it does not indicate which parts of Varys' words are genuine and does not preclude some sort of purposeful misdirection on his part.

So the question here is not "why would Varys lie to a dying man?" because no lie has been told if Aegon is indeed fake. The question instead is "why doesn't Varys correct Kevan's belief that Aegon is Rhaeger's son?" Well, honestly, why would Varys be moved to correct Kevan in the event Aegon is fake? What purpose would that even serve?

From the rest of Varys' speech, the boy's identity is not even Varys' interest. Varys speaks past the issue of Aegon's identity, and the focus is singularly on his qualities of leadership. Which is a highly unorthodox and unnecessary view in a system where bloodlines is the only required ingredient for claiming kingship. Going by the actual speech that follows, Varys is selling the boy Aegon who has landed as a suitable, responsible ruler, not extolling his virtues as Rhaegar's son or the "true king."

In sum, we think assuming that Varys confirms Aegon is real to a dying man is a fallacy based on the actual exchange of words-- such a confirmation is omitted. Further, we think the real "take-away" from this passage are the lines Varys actually says, which tell us that Aegon's lineage is not his interest, but rather the fact that there is a boy well trained for ruling who will emerge as a benevolent king in the end.

Verdad!!! Solid analysis.

[Techelles]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I think juan brings to light a pretty serious issue. I'm sick, frankly, of my boss confiscating my copy of ADwD on the job. Who does he think he is? Some kind of king of my goddamn life?!? We should unionize, finally, and put an end to this travesty. What do we want? To read at work! When do we want it? While we're at work!

ETA: I actually am at work right now, tbh.

Anyway, definitely agree, OP. Varys is just being his typical self in this scene. I definitely don't trust him enough to use anything he says to make a case for Aegon's legitimacy. After reading the epilogue, I always thought it was obvious that the question is still open and that nothing Varys said to Kevan is conclusive in the least. For many other reasons, though, I'm pretty certain Aegon is fake.

[juanml82]

Guys, you're putting to much into this. It is rather simple. The question is: Is the character Varys capable of lying? The answer is "yes", no "go reread the series"

The guy deceives for a living and had just killed two people in cold blood, for R'Hollor's sake.

[Mladen]

snip

It seems that your MO is accusing members of overanalysis without single argument. It's so sad to comprehend that someone is able of understanding the matter you clearly are so blatantly oblivious to. You go from thread to thread attacking people with these silly accusations, condescendingly offending them, without even a tiny bit of argumentation. Your incapability to produce anything other than "you are overanalyzing it" is astonishing...

(respond to the post of juanml82)

What is your issue, seriously? This is a paraphrase of your "arguments"

You do not want to know, dear... Just ignore it...

We should unionize, finally, and put an end to this travesty. What do we want? To read at work! When do we want it? While we're at work!

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: ... Brilliant...

[RoamingRonin]

It's hilarious that each of the Lord Varys threads have the same group of posters arguing against (see: ganging up on) an individual poster. The individual is different in each thread but the gang is all the same. It's quite interesting.

[Foothill]

It's hilarious that each of Lord Varys threads have the same group of posters arguing against a single individual.

That has become the norm as of late and it is really annoying.

[Dr. Pepper]

It's hilarious that each of Lord Varys threads have the same group of posters arguing against an individual poster. The poster is different in each thread but the gang is all the same. It's quite interesting.

Yes, it's very interesting. Sometimes people share interests in certain things, like characters or plots. You should see how often the same group of posters gang up on all of us when it comes to Stannis, or Dany, or magic, gods.

[Lord Flashheart]

The moderation on this site is terrible. Jesus.

There is a report button in the lower right hand corner of each individual post, mods don't have the time to read the thousands of posts daily on this forum. So if there is something you think needs moderation, that is up to you.

It's hilarious that each of the Lord Varys threads have the same group of posters arguing against (see: ganging up on) an individual poster. The individual is different in each thread but the gang is all the same. It's quite interesting.

I don't see what you are setting out to accomplish? You speak of moderation, then seemingly attempt to degrade a group of posters for sharing similar feelings. Also your post and now mine by extension add absolutely nothing to the thread.

[Mladen]

Yes, it's very interesting. Sometimes people share interests in certain things, like characters or plots. You should see how often the same group of posters gang up on all of us when it comes to Stannis, or Dany, or magic, gods.

Yes, someone would even say that is the point of this forum...

And, I will be always leading a gang against those that attack Sansa :)... You all know that...

[butterbumps!]

It's hilarious that each of the Lord Varys threads have the same group of posters arguing against (see: ganging up on) an individual poster. The individual is different in each thread but the gang is all the same. It's quite interesting.

I think this is a rather unfair portrayal. A particular poster has been going out of their way to insult people and start a pointless fight since page 1. It's not an argument or position that others are going after in this case, so calling it "ganging up on" is somewhat mischaracterizing the situation.

But that said, it's probably a good idea to move past the spat here and get back on topic.

I strongly agree with your early assertion:

I think the true mystery of the scene is just why in the seven hells is Varys confessing to his plans to Ser Kevan?

Have you any thoughts on this? I posited that perhaps there was an unknown audience beside Kevan that Varys was speaking to. Does that seem plausible?

[Techelles]

It's hilarious that each of the Lord Varys threads have the same group of posters arguing against (see: ganging up on) an individual poster. The individual is different in each thread but the gang is all the same. It's quite interesting.

Careful now...or

.

[Jon of the Dead]

Uff, speaking of obnoxious bosses, I now got out of work and I'm now free to peacefully look at this thread.

OP, I'm still not sure I get your point (and all the in-fighting in this thread sure as hell hasn't helped), are you saying that Varys did to Kevan the same trick he pulled with Ned about Jon Arryn's killer ("All he was he owed to Jon Arryn, etc, etc", and he let Ned assume he was taking about Ser Hugh when in fact he knew Petyr was the culprit all along)?

[juanml82]

Uff, speaking of obnoxious bosses, I now got out of work and I'm now free to peacefully look at this thread.

OP, I'm still not sure I get your point (and all the in-fighting in this thread sure as hell hasn't helped), are you saying that Varys did to Kevan the same trick he pulled with Ned about Jon Arryn's killer ("All he was he owed to Jon Arryn, etc, etc", and he let Ned assume he was taking about Ser Hugh when in fact he knew Petyr was the culprit all along)?

Apparently. And, since it's related to Aegon's authenticity, seems to be pointing to void the "Why would Varys lie to dying man?" although the very similar "Why would Varys deceive a dying man?" point remains unaffected.

Now go on, continue the collective bashing.

[Mladen]

Have you any thoughts on this? I posited that perhaps there was an unknown audience beside Kevan that Varys was speaking to. Does that seem plausible?

For me, entire Varys' talk was more for readers than for Kevan. I mean, that scene has something theatrical in it. The talk about Aegon was more meant for us, like "hear, audience, who Aegon really is". So, I don't think the soliloquy was meant for Kevan, nor do I think that this scene should be watched only on Kevan/Varys interaction level.

[Techelles]

Apparently. And, since it's related to Aegon's authenticity, seems to be pointing to void the "Why would Varys lie to dying man?" although the very similar "Why would Varys deceive a dying man?" point remains unaffected.

Now go on, continue the collective bashing.

Why would Varys go out of his way to correct a dying man?