Conversation with a Dying Man: the exact wording of Varys and Kevan's talk

[E-Ro]

It's hilarious that each of the Lord Varys threads have the same group of posters arguing against (see: ganging up on) an individual poster. The individual is different in each thread but the gang is all the same. It's quite interesting.

Well, this thread has gone swimmingly, I really hope all of you learned your lesson here. Deep thoughtful analysis is frowned upon. And rightly so, because not everyone has the time to engage in that sort of thing. Shame on you lemoncakes! and co for your attempt at figuring whats what wrt faegon. Also yeah, its the same group every time! THIS IS A CONSPIRACY I TELL YOU! TURN ON YOUR LIGHTS, LOCK YOUR DOORS, AND MAKE SURE YOUR FAMILY IS SAFE ANYONE CAN BE NEXT! Its horrible, they can strike anywhere, at any time. Shame really, these forums used to be so safe, the rise in organised crime posting has really taken this place to the gutter.

Grrrrrrr im mad! HEAR ME ROAR!

Ok brah, I get that your upset, but really? I mean, dont get me wrong, your post and the subsequent replies to it have given me many a laugh and for that im thankful. But there is no need for this broseph. Relax, if you have an issue with a certain poster or posters, try avoiding them, or using the ignore button maybe? Idk, there are numerous ways to combat this that dont include getting all huphy over work and such.

To end this post I guess I should say I agree with lemoncakes!, if only to avoid persecution from her and her gang, I would hate to end up missing on the nine o clock news.

Just kidding, I am a champion of stannis and I fear nothing. I actually really do agree with her.

[juanml82]

Why would Varys go out of his way to correct a dying man?

Kevan: "He's dead"

Varys: "No"

That's either lie or deceit.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Kevan: "He's dead"

Varys: "No"

That's either lie or deceit.

And you intentionally omit the part preceding Kevan's statement — "Aegon raises his banner above Storm's End ..."

[Techelles]

Kevan: "He's dead"

Varys: "No"

That's either lie or deceit.

They are talking about two different people. That's the whole point.

[juanml82]

And you intentionally omit the part preceding Kevan's statement — "Aegon raises his banner above Storm's End ..."

They are talking about two different people. That's the whole point.

And that's the deception. Varys knows which Aegon Kevan is talking about.

[butterbumps!]

OP, I'm still not sure I get your point (and all the in-fighting in this thread sure as hell hasn't helped), are you saying that Varys did to Kevan the same trick he pulled with Ned about Jon Arryn's killer ("All he was he owed to Jon Arryn, etc, etc", and he let Ned assume he was taking about Ser Hugh when in fact he knew Petyr was the culprit all along)?

Well, at the base level, the point DP and I were going for was to clarify what's actually written in this passage, as it seemed there was a bit of confusion about that.

The second point is to point out that Varys does not actually confirm Aegon's identity the way it's often assumed he does. This is important, because this passage is usually cited as proof of Aegon as real because "Varys would not lie to a dying man." But when you actually look at the words that are exchanged, it's not a lie if Aegon is not Rhaeger's son. It turns the scenario into an issue where if Aegon is fake, it's simply about firguring out why Varys wouldn't correct a dying man, which is a lot more passive than the outright lie many have assumed this to be.

The third point was to redirect the importance of the speech from the issue of "why wouldn't Varys correct a dying man" to the part of the speech that's actually important-- the Enlightened Monarch appeal. It's baffling why Varys would choose to give such a speech in the first place, and it's clear from the emphasis of that passage that Varys is not concerned with Aegon's identity. Varys is very much concerned with suitability of rule rather than "Aegon Targ" or lineage issues. Which is extremely curious.

[Techelles]

And that's the deception. Varys knows which Aegon Kevan is talking about.

You have to know that this has been stated and accepted about 50 times in this thread. Kevan made a false assumption and Varys let him do it.

You never answered my question, by the way. Why would Varys bother to correct him?

[Jon of the Dead]

For me, entire Varys' talk was more for readers than for Kevan. I mean, that scene has something theatrical in it. The talk about Aegon was more meant for us, like "hear, audience, who Aegon really is". So, I don't think the soliloquy was meant for Kevan, nor do I think that this scene should be watched only on Kevan/Varys interaction level.

I think it's something similar like this. Let me give you an example:

When I was a kid, I once threw a plate of spaguetti to my brother, he dodged it, and it crashed on the wall and made a god-awful mess (meatballs stuck in the ceiling, spaguetti hanging from a lamp, you get the point). Being the devious son of a bitch I am, I lied and blamed my brother. And I lied like a boss. I not only lied in front of my parents, I even lied to my brother when no one else could hear us, and eventhough we both knew that I threw the plate, the lie was so resilient that I almost mindfuck my brother into thinking he threw the plate. Hell, I almost believed at one point.

The thing is, for Varys, Aegon is Aegon, even if he knows the kid is a Blackfyre. I don't think he'll ever admit the truth to anyone, alive or dead, because the minute he stops lying the whole thing fails. I don't know if this makes sense, but it's my 2 cents

[Lord Flashheart]

“Dunk the Lunk, thick as a castle wall”

[Mladen]

I think it's something similar like this. Let me give you an example:

When I was a kid, I once threw a plate of spaguetti to my brother, he dodged it, and it crashed on the wall and made a god-awful mess (meatballs stuck in the ceiling, spaguetti hanging from a lamp, you get the point). Being the devious son of a bitch I am, I lied and blamed my brother. And I lied like a boss. I not only lied in front of my parents, I even lied to my brother when no one else could hear us, and eventhough we both knew that I threw the plate, the lie was so resilient that I almost mindfuck my brother into thinking he threw the plate. Hell, I almost believed at one point.

The thing is, for Varys, Aegon is Aegon, even if he knows the kid is a Blackfyre. I don't think he'll ever admit the truth to anyone, alive or dead, because the minute he stops lying the whole thing fails. I don't know if this makes sense, but it's my 2 cents

Well, the only way lie will hold is if you never, in any circumstances, tell the truth... You have the point, it can be observed that way, but for me, entire, what is now called "Enlightened Monarch" speech is quick introduction of Aegon, whomever he may be...

[Newstar]

The third point was to redirect the importance of the speech from the issue of "why wouldn't Varys correct a dying man" to the part of the speech that's actually important-- the Enlightened Monarch appeal. It's baffling why Varys would choose to give such a speech in the first place, and it's clear from the emphasis of that passage that Varys is not concerned with Aegon's identity. Varys is very much concerned with suitability of rule rather than "Aegon Targ" or lineage issues. Which is extremely curious.

Good point. Varys' long speech about why Aegon is going to be the kingliest king who ever kinged is about his experiences, his training, his education, his hardships...everything, in fact, except his birthright. It seems to be the product of someone who believes that good kings are made, not born...which would be exactly the sort of viewpoint one would expect of someone who had swapped in "Aegon" for Aegon.

[Pearlthegirl]

I'm going with "good theory" rather than "PSA" and hope I don't get sent to the Wall. Can anyone give me another example of the Hugh/LF caliber of double talk from Varys? Just point me to a book and chapter ... More examples would be helpful or the discussion of Varys' motive for even speaking could add more credence. I just think it could be read either way and need more info.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Kevan made a false assumption and Varys let him do it.

This is basically the nut graf of the entire thing.

I'm going with "good theory" rather than "PSA" and hope I don't get sent to the Wall. Can anyone give me another example of the Hugh/LF caliber of double talk from Varys? Just point me to a book and chapter ... More examples would be helpful or the discussion of Varys' motive for even speaking could add more credence. I just think it could be read either way and need more info.

It's not Varys doing it, but it's similar to the Ned/Robert discussion about Wylla. Ned confirms that Wylla is the woman Robert's thinking of, without actually confirming that she's Jon's mother.

As for Varys's motive for speaking: little birds are listening, he wants to give Kevan one last "fuck you," who knows. The idea is that asking "Why would he lie?" misses the broader point — why say anything?

[RoamingRonin]

Have you any thoughts on this? I posited that perhaps there was an unknown audience beside Kevan that Varys was speaking to. Does that seem plausible?

I was thinking this but I couldn't think of a rock-solid theory. Here's what I was toying with:

Let's go back to the Red Wedding: Roose Bolton tells Robb, "Jaime Lannister sends his regards," before stabbing him dead. Completely unnecessary... until you consider Catelyn was there to hear it. Catelyn becomes Lady Stoneheart and it's that line that makes her despise Brienne, who is all of a sudden a huge Jaime supporter.

I think this is a similar situation. Varys is not just talking Ser Kevan nor is he (indirectly) talking to the reader (really, guys, has GRRM ever been so kind?). I can't work out the rest of the details, though.

[juanml82]

Well, the only way lie will hold is if you never, in any circumstances, tell the truth... You have the point, it can be observed that way, but for me, entire, what is now called "Enlightened Monarch" speech is quick introduction of Aegon, whomever he may be...

Well, before people get carried over by the notion of "Enlightened Monarch", let me nitpick that Varys' description of Aegon isn't that of an "Enlightened despot" as we know it from Western history. While Aegon is learned, social thought in Westeros is almost non existent and no notion of Enlightenment is around. And the fact that he lingered and learned with the lower classes, while commendable, doesn't fit either what's traditionally called "Enlightenment".

He'd be a different monarch if he ended up winning, maybe close to what Aegon V might have been, but Enlightenment isn't the word.

[Jon of the Dead]

Well, before people get carried over by the notion of "Enlightened Monarch", let me nitpick that Varys' description of Aegon isn't that of an "Enlightened despot" as we know it from Western history. While Aegon is learned, social thought in Westeros is almost non existent and no notion of Enlightenment is around. And the fact that he lingered and learned with the lower classes, while commendable, doesn't fit either what's traditionally called "Enlightenment".

He'd be a different monarch if he ended up winning, maybe close to what Aegon V might have been, but Enlightenment isn't the word.

To be fair, Aegon's character is still quite underdeveloped for us to know if he truly is enlightened or not. At this point he's still a plot twist with legs. Varys can say all the shit he wants, but I believe Aegon is a good monarch when I see it. Among the few "enlightened" things he's done is making Duck a kingsguard despite his low birth, but there's also the part when he has a tantrum when Tyrion beats him in civasse. I think it's still in the air.

[RedFishBlackFish]

Have you any thoughts on this? I posited that perhaps there was an unknown audience beside Kevan that Varys was speaking to. Does that seem plausible?

My thought was that Varys might be speaking to any ears that might be listening in. Obviously, Varys' own little birds were there, and those same spies may be relaying information to Illyrio--I've seen it suggested that Illyrio is the one paying for Varys' little birds. It seems that both Illyrio and Varys would know if Aegon was real or false, so I'm not sure what this would accomplish. Unless Varys is providing "choice whispers" to Illyrio to purposefully mislead him about his own true allegiance. Maybe he's considering Dany as a better option than Aegon?

Even more interesting is the possibility that there are Tyrell spies listening in. The Tyrells already know about Aegon's arrival, but they have dismissed him as a hoax. If they heard it from Varys that Aegon was real they might be more receptive to his cause. Remeber that the Tyrells et al. were Targaryean bannerman and might be looking for another means to displace the Lannisters.

That said this is all conjecture since we really don't know what Varys true plans are.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Great thread, Dr P and bumps!

I think I've pretty much always agreed with this theory, especially since Varys does not bring up heritage in his whole speech about why 'Aegon' is qualified to be king over the other candidates. I think that it should be fairly obvious to the readers that Varys essentially does not really care about bloodlines with regards to power, ruling, and kingship, especially since it is known that he believes that power is a trick. Why would someone who doesn't really give a shit about power and bloodlines, and shows us this throughout the series, care whether or not Aegon is the son of Rhaegar? (Unless you are proponent of Varys being a Blackfyre theory, which I'm not sure I agree with).

[Mladen]

I think this is a similar situation. Varys is not just talking Ser Kevan nor is he (indirectly) talking to the reader (really, guys, has GRRM ever been so kind?). I can't work out the rest of the details, though.

I actually think this was for the reader... Martin played with us so many times... Remember the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn thing... This was the impromptu introduction of Aegon, and how most likely he will be perceived by commoners. Because, when he starts his campaign and when it becomes public knowledge, him getting the support of the people will make sense if you remember this speech, and not only cyvasse table kicking...

[juanml82]

To be fair, Aegon's character is still quite underdeveloped for us to know if he truly is enlightened or not. At this point he's still a plot twist with legs. Varys can say all the shit he wants, but I believe Aegon is a good monarch when I see it. Among the few "enlightened" things he's done is making Duck a kingsguard despite his low birth, but there's also the part when he has a tantrum when Tyrion beats him in civasse. I think it's still in the air.

Truth, but I was mostly pointing towards historical Enlightement. Westeros, the Free Cities, their culture, science and philosophy are so different to those of 16th Century Europe (and beyond), that the historical term simply can not be applied.