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A Game of Gods?


Mithras

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Not sure if this discussion is made somewhere else but hear this.

GRRM stated that there is no true religion, and even the existence of the gods are not confirmed in the books. There is clearly magic but is it due to gods? No proof is given and i think this is the way GRRM writes the books. As in the real life, some believers will explain the things with the actions of the gods, and disbelievers will claim that things have nothing to do with the gods. We see this pattern in the text. There are some events which can be explained in both ways, and the text does not give conclusive proof favoring one case or the other.

One example is the "reappearance" of Davos on a rock after the Blackwater. And here are two explanations of this event:

1. Godly Intervention Explanation: Davos was drowned in the Blackwater but the Seven resurrected him and chose him as the champion, delivered to the rocks where he woke up, and directed the right ship to rescue him. The Mother also talked to Davos on the rocks.

2. No Gods Explanation: Davos is a strong swimmer and with light armor he managed to get under the chain and surfaced up, the waves carried him the rock where he woke up. There, he talked to himself, prayed but being sick and dehydrated, he heard voices and saw hallucinations. The ship that came to rescue him is just luck. We can also argue that ships are searching for people/things which can find their way to the rocks.

The purpose of this thread is to find the evidences which can be explained in both ways, and see if we can talk about "A Game of Gods". Assuming there exist gods, who are their champions and what game are they playing?

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I dont think there are any godly miracles in the story.

Thoros inadvertently resuscitating Beric? Even Thoros isn't sure how that happened. Is magic gaining strength because the dragons are back, or are the dragons back because magic is returning? So far, it seems like the Lord of Light and the Great Other are the only religion actively involved on Planetos.

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Thoros inadvertently resuscitating Beric? Even Thoros isn't sure how that happened. Is magic gaining strength because the dragons are back, or are the dragons back because magic is returning? So far, it seems like the Lord of Light and the Great Other are the only religion actively involved on Planetos.

And the ''old gods''...

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Thoros inadvertently resuscitating Beric? Even Thoros isn't sure how that happened. Is magic gaining strength because the dragons are back, or are the dragons back because magic is returning? So far, it seems like the Lord of Light and the Great Other are the only religion actively involved on Planetos.

Im not sure if I would call it a miracle though. It happened around eight times to two different people.

I think magic is returning with the Others return.

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Note that Thoros reviving Beric does not prove Rhlorr exists. I told in the OP that there exists magic and the religions relate this magic to the gods. However, magic can still exist without the gods. From how i interpret GRRM's motives, gods (if they exist at all) intervene and act without leaving a direct trace of their actions which prove their existence. They rather leave it to the subjects to believe in them and have faith. Therefore, there is no conclusive proof in the text which proves the existence of any god.

So let me repeat: Assuming gods exists and act the way written above, who are their champions and what game are they playing? I am proposing that from this point of view, Davos is the champion of Seven.

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As for the motives of Seven, Davos went to Dragonstone and saved Edric. Dragonstone has some kind of Targaryen magic which Seven do not approve and after the burning of the idols, the power of Seven in Dragonstone diminished. Seven definitely want Stannis to get out of there. So they lured Stannis to the Wall and Davos to Lord Manderly. Manderlys have strong faith of Seven and they are one of the few houses that are not corrupted. Maybe Seven wants Davos to teach Rickon (future lord of Winterfell) the mysteries of Faith. For this, old gods may play their game and send their agent to make sure Rickon keeps believing in old gods.

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I don't have it with me, but I've been doing a reread of AGoT, and in an early Tyrion chapter, he thinks about the Doom of Valyria and thinks something along the lines of magic dying out in Essos and Westeros when the Doom happened. We know dragons lived on after that so it really startled me as that being the considered time when magic ended.

I will look for the passage and post when I can.

As for the Gods, I think what is happening in the world is the resurgence of magic. It seems accepted that it once existed but disappeared from the world. Something has brought it back into play and I don't think that it is the different gods. Braavos has showed us just how many gods there are, and we know they can't all be real.

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So let me repeat: Assuming gods exists and act the way written above, who are their champions and what game are they playing? I am proposing that from this point of view, Davos is the champion of Seven.

Bran is the champion of the Old Gods. Melisandre is probably the champion of the Red God. Patchface is the prophet of the Drowned God, though he makes an unlikely champion.

There is a theory that the Drowned God is equivalent with the Great Other of the Red priests.

To me, the Old Gods represent the Ice in the Song while the Red God is the Fire. The Seven may not be real IMO, but there is ample evidence for the existence of both the Old Gods, who we know to be greenseers of the past. There is credible evidence for the existence of R'hllor- the resurrections of Beric and Catelyn, and Melisandre's powers.

In the end, this is going to be like all of the comic book hero vs. stories. Initially, the Old Gods and the Red God will oppose one another, but like Hulk and the Wolverine, they will unite against a common foe at the end of the Song.

I believe that foe is the Drowned God.

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The only thing that makes sense to me in the ASoIaF world from what I've read is Magic is real,but the gods are man made,there doesn't really seem to be proof of any direct intervention anywhere,No appearances,No messengers,No truly supernatural people either,unless they are dead and walking around.

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Just because the Gods are man-made doesn't mean they aren't real. In the case of the Old Gods, we know they are real- and they predate the First Men, they were created by the Children of the Forest.

As to truly supernatural people, I must disagree with you there also Morienthar. Even if there are no gods resurrecting the dead with magic is supernatural (Thoros), the shadow baby is supernatural (Mel), and surviving underwater for days is supernatural (Patchface).

IIRC, GRRM has said that he won't show the gods on screen. Although we've seen the Old Gods up close and personal.

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My pet theory is that all magic in the series is personal magic, wielded by the caster, but gods make a useful fiction or psychological foil for making it work. People who couldn't ordinarily use magic can do so in the belief that it is actually some god working through them or gifting them with powers.

It's possible at least some of the gods are real, Martin doesn't have to make it explicit, and can afford to leave it up to interpretation. The Seven have the least evidence for their existence so far, as they frown on magic and their followers have performed none. I would think this makes them a less competitive faith in a world where other gods offer magical boons like raising the dead, healing injuries, boosting fertility, etc.

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If the Red priests channel all their powers from the Lord of Light, as they claim, then why does Mel feel her magical potency amplified in the vicinity of the Wall - a magical structure in no way related to the fire god?

Magic is magic. A mysterious force which primitive cultures of Essos and Westeros cannot explain without inventing deities. Valyrians on the other hand, a not so primitive civilization, seemed to have had a much more scientific approach to magic and only had what appeared to be remnants of an ancient religion.

I wrote a small essay on this topic a couple of months ago, you can find it easily on my profile if you want.

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Valyrians also had gods. We know that Targaryen dragons (Balerion, Vhagar etc.) are named after old Valyrian gods.

If you believe in gods, you may explain the resurrection of Beric by Rhlorr. If you believe Rhlorr does not exist, you can say that Red Priests use some kind of magic or even science, which is not a boon of any god.

I can count many events that may be both explained by gods or without the gods at the same time. And these events are not necessarily supernatural. For example those who break sacred rules (guest right, incest, kinslaying etc.) in the books are getting what they deserve sooner or later. Plotwise, some may argue that this is the natural turn of events, while others may say gods are punishing them for their great sins. Or those who keep their faith sometimes gets help from where they do not expect. Is this their plot luck or boon of a god? No one can say certainly.

So no one should look for an absolute proof of any god or divine intervention in the books because none exists. There is no absolute proof in the books for the existence of any god. This does not mean gods do not exist.

If a god shows irrefutable evidence of its existence, then Westeros becomes Faerun. GRRM's world view is not like that. So the gods of GRRM (IF THEY EXIST) can not show any absolute proof of their existence. They are banned from it.

In this thread, ASSUME THAT gods exist in the GRRM way of existence (giving no absolute proof of theirselves).

So the gods must be playing their games through their champions and prophets.

Rereading the books as A Game of Gods above else, what is the story?

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I don't buy into the gods selecting champions idea. I bet magic is more like physics in our world. General principals that determine the functioning of reality.

But if you're right, Dany would be a good candidate. She instinctively performed a bloodmagic ritual to wake her dragons. Mirri seemed to notice the power in her magic before she died screaming. Then Dany followed the bleeding star for no apparent reason, seemingly satisfying a prophesy she had no knowledge of. And lastly, her interaction with Drogon seems to be driven by some other power. She knows how to tame him and has no idea how she knows.

If anyone is being manipulated by a higher power, it's Dany.

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