The impulsive Cat (spoilers on book three)

[Sansa_Stark]

One of my main problems with Cat's decision was that she let Jaime go under the belief that Tyrion would honor her trade.

WTF

It would take months for Brienne to get Jaime to King's Landing(if they even survived at all) and the war was still brewing. She should have expected the possibility that Tywin would return(and he did) at that point.

Totally stupid decision.

[Hellswung]

Jaime was a useless prisoner - Tywin's tactics did not change at all following his capture. Sansa and Arya, on the other hand, were very valuable, as shown by Tyrion's marriage to Sansa.

How is Jaime not valuable?

Would Tywin Lannister allow his son to remain captured and paraded as a trophy of the Northmen? The Lannisters always pay their debts, remember? That means it is not politically feasible to let Jaime remain captured indefinitely at the mercy of the Starks if Tywin's wants to remain respected and feared.

Which serves two purpose:

1) making him slightly more predictable, as in he will not stop fighting until the Stark is all dead or Jaime freed gracefully

2) Jaime would at a certain point become valuable bargaining chip that might serve a purpose benefiting the Starks

[Twist]

Here is my argument for Tyrion

Tyrion is the LEAST important member of the Lannisters. What's the point of capturing him? When you want to strike a blow against your enemy, you aim for the head or you bid your time.

Capturing Tyrion only served to escalate a situation that is already on the brink of war. Yeah, I read the article on Catnapping, sadly I don't agree. She was the reason Tywin started massing a host at Casterly Rock.

She provoked Jaime Lannister's campaign, flying the Lannister banners.

Yes, there are other powers at work in the realm, but SHE NEEDS NOT CAST THE FIRST STONE. There is a reason so many here hates Cat, and it is not because of poor reading skills.

So I challenge anyone who defends her kidnaping of Tyrion with this question,

What's the worst would happen if she had let Tyrion go?

Didn't she capture tyrion because she actually believed and trusted LF when he said the dagger was tyrion's? Then call it fate or the new gods interference or whatever cat's interpretation would be, the perfect opportunity arises for her to capture the man she wrongly believes has played a part in the attempted murder of her son, an opportunity that may never come again.

[Hellswung]

This is one of my pet peeves when debating with anyone. You have chosen one portion of my response to address, ignoring the rest of what I have actually said.

If they had traded Jaime for Sansa, they could have made a useful marriage alliance. Although Cat is mother to the King, she did not advise him to declare himself king. The entire point of challenging the Lannisters was to protect and save their family: Ned, the girls, and the Tullys in the Riverlands. As I already admitted, her "selfish" act is understandable because Cat is first and foremost a grieving wife and mother, not some cold-blooded royal wannabe with aspirations of reigning as Queen Regent in the North. I admitted that she made a mistake, but I maintain that it was understandable, sympathetic, and partially the result of Robb's obstinance in not making the trade. See how I responded to your entire post?

Ok, in the future I will be mindful to reply to your entire post.

I see we have no conflicts. You are mainly telling me Cat's action is understandable. It is also understandable to me, but it is not acceptable to me, because I have a set of values and codes that would dictate her to act differently. I believe she should of at least favored an action that more in line with keeping the integrity and morale of the Northmen army. What she did was treason, treason out of love, but treason none the less. If she is not Robb's mother, Robb could have her head for that or Robb might forgive her because she is not his mother and the King can be forgiving. Alas, she is what she is, and puts Robb in an impossible situation.

[Hellswung]

Didn't she capture tyrion because she actually believed and trusted LF when he said the dagger was tyrion's? Then call it fate or the new gods interference or whatever cat's interpretation would be, the perfect opportunity arises for her to capture the man she wrongly believes has played a part in the attempted murder of her son, an opportunity that may never come again.

If it was Jaime or even Tywin she captured, she could have unraveled all Casterly Rock's power with one single stroke, but alas, it is the imp.

[RumHam]

If it was Jaime or even Tywin she captured, she could have unraveled all Casterly Rock's power with one single stroke, but alas, it is the imp.

Well, she only had "evidence" against Tyrion, and he was the only one she had the opportunity to capture. Capturing Jamie wouldn't have "unraveled all Casterly Rock's power" technically he's not even supposed to have much of anything to do with Casterly Rock as a member of the Kingsguard. Even capturing Tywin wouldn't be the end of Lannister power, Cersei is still the Queen.

[Hellswung]

One of my main problems with Cat's decision was that she let Jaime go under the belief that Tyrion would honor her trade.

WTF

It would take months for Brienne to get Jaime to King's Landing(if they even survived at all) and the war was still brewing. She should have expected the possibility that Tywin would return(and he did) at that point.

Totally stupid decision.

Yes and there is that.

[Hellswung]

Well, she only had "evidence" against Tyrion, and he was the only one she had the opportunity to capture. Capturing Jamie wouldn't have "unraveled all Casterly Rock's power" technically he's not even supposed to have much of anything to do with Casterly Rock as a member of the Kingsguard. Even capturing Tywin wouldn't be the end of Lannister power, Cersei is still the Queen.

Cersei is worthless.

[Blueberry Stark]

Yeah... I dont hate Cat, but I hate the tone and content of dogmatic Cat defenders.

As for the character of Cat, she is a credible and skillfully-drawn portrait of your average hysterical middle-aged woman. Just like her real-life counterparts, she just cant help herself.

What on earth are you talking about? How is Catelyn hysterical? We only see her react emotionally when Bran is fighting for his life, and when Robb is killed in front of her. In both instances, many types of people, not just middle-aged women, would react emotionally. In fact, anyone without ice water running through his or her veins would. Cat is first and foremost a mother, and her actions and reactions, both the admirable and the objectionable ones, are a result of her being a mom. In all honesty, I didn't even know that there was such a thing as an average, hysterical middle-age woman, and I suspect you are making this point in order to be offensive and inflammatory.

[David Selig]

Be careful OP. On this board disliking Cat means you're an idiot with a 3rd grade reading comprehension. According to her defenders, there are no legitimate reasons for disliking her and that you are objectively wring.

Terrible strawman argument.

Yeah... I dont hate Cat, but I hate the tone and content of dogmatic Cat defenders.

As for the character of Cat, she is a credible and skillfully-drawn portrait of your average hysterical middle-aged woman. Just like her real-life counterparts, she just cant help herself.

You know what hate? Ridiculous and disgusting sexist "arguments" like yours.

[Minsc]

Yes, there are other powers at work in the realm, but SHE NEEDS NOT CAST THE FIRST STONE. There is a reason so many here hates Cat, and it is not because of poor reading skills.

So I challenge anyone who defends her kidnaping of Tyrion with this question,

What's the worst would happen if she had let Tyrion go?

How isn't Jaime pushing her son out the window not him casting the first stone?

Tyrion telling Jaime and Cersei that she was in KL, which convinces them that Ned is plotting against the Lannisters thus causing them to strike out at him and her daughters. Only this time she doesn't have a Lannister hostage, that ensures they don't kill her husband.

[Hellswung]

Ok guys, lets talk about the impulsive cat, not the other things.

Anyways, i just read the execution of lord Karstark and my flame is out. I feel sad, even though I knew Red Wedding is coming. I still feel sad. Robb just killed one of his most loyal bannermen.

[juanml82]

I am half way through book three. I am at the part where Karstark killed the two Lannisters and Robb was about to kill lord Karstark.

I would just like to say how much I hate Catelyn. First Tyrion, then Jaime Lannister. These spun of the moment decisions have really helped to put Ned and Robb in their graves. Great Job Cat, them Lannisters couldn't have done it without you.

Get the hell out of this forum and stick to the still reading forums! :P Seriously, there are some heavy spoilers discussed openly in this forum, and reading the wrong thread title or opening any of them can very well ruin plenty of surprises ASOIAF has for you.

As for Cat's actions, they might be understandable given her emotional state, but pragmatically, the make no sense whatsoever and deeply hurt the already weakened Northern cause.

[Hellswung]

How isn't Jaime pushing her son out the window not him casting the first stone?

If you insist, then by all means, capture Jaime. Hope this answers your first stone question.

Edit:

For that matter, we should of told Bran to stop climbing the walls.

[Minsc]

If you insist, then by all means, capture Jaime.

They did, but that doesn't change the argument.

Not to mention, in regards to information available Tyrion was equally responsible for attempting to kill Bran.

[Hellswung]

They did, but that doesn't change the argument.

Not to mention, in regards to information available Tyrion was equally responsible for attempting to kill Bran.

Actually, cast the first stone refers to all gloves off and all cards on the table.

Capturing Tyrion is an affront to the Lannisters that they MUST answer. Thus they responded n kind by mustering a host and started at Riverrun.

Now that is what I call casting the first stone.

[David Selig]

Ok guys, lets talk about the impulsive cat, not the other things.

Anyways, i just read the execution of lord Karstark and my flame is out. I feel sad, even though I knew Red Wedding is coming. I still feel sad. Robb just killed one of his most loyal bannermen.

Yeah, so loyal that he send his mounted troops away and murdered some of Edmure's guards and murdered prisoners against Robb's commands. Not Catelyn's fault he went crazy in his desire for vengeance.

So about releasing Jaime - it's not impulsive or stupid at all given the situation at the time:

1) Robb needed a heir at hand ASAP

2) Stannis was preparing to attack the capital and looked likely to win, which would've meant the almost certain death of Sansa and Arya

3) Jaime was pretty useless as a hostage

Rickard's despicable actions aren't Catelyn's fault, it's all on him.

[Hellswung]

Get the hell out of this forum and stick to the still reading forums! :P Seriously, there are some heavy spoilers discussed openly in this forum, and reading the wrong thread title or opening any of them can very well ruin plenty of surprises ASOIAF has for you.

As for Cat's actions, they might be understandable given her emotional state, but pragmatically, the make no sense whatsoever and deeply hurt the already weakened Northern cause.

Thank you, haha. Needless to say, I was shocked when I read about Lady Stoneheart lol

[Dicer]

Yeah... I dont hate Cat, but I hate the tone and content of dogmatic Cat defenders.

As for the character of Cat, she is a credible and skillfully-drawn portrait of your average hysterical middle-aged woman. Just like her real-life counterparts, she just cant help herself.

That's not fair. I do agree that her fans like to whitewash her and make her into this perfect paragon of virtue with no flaws. But valid criticisms of her actions aside, I think she's a refreshingly new character that we rarely see in fantasy. The mother, willing to do anything to protect her children and is smart, capable and able to strategize with the best of them.

She does tend to be impulsive (Arresting Tyrion) and makes bad decisions (Releasing Jaime), but that's true of almost every character in the book. Especially since she does not have the plot armor and good luck of the bad guys like Littlefinger and the Lannisters.

The main issue with releasing Jaime was giving back a big asset to the Lannisters. Jaime was KG and a good leader and he had already lead the Lannister forces in war. Robb was still fighting a war and he would have had to face Jaime in battle again.

I can understand why she did it. For her daughters. But for fighting the war, Sansa and Arya are useless while Jaime gives extra points to the Lannisters. So looking at it from a war viewpoint, the trade was onesided. The Lannisters gain, while the North loses.

[Minsc]

Actually, cast the first stone refers to all gloves off and all cards on the table.

Capturing Tyrion is an affront to the Lannisters that they MUST answer. Thus they responded n kind by mustering a host and started at Riverrun.

Now that is what I call casting the first stone.

Attempting to kill their young son, was an affront to the Starks that they MUST answer. See I can make exact same argument. Simply, the Lannisters didn't need to respond to Tywin's arrest by invading the Riverlands. Instead, Tywin could act like a grown up and go in front of Robert to demand insight into why his son was arrested.