From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XXI

[brashcandy]

Nice catch Brashcandy!

I think it highlights well Sansa’s ability to bring the best out of people who are usually shunned by Westerosi society. She manages to make “knights” out of these unlikely heroes. It’s quite similar to what happen in the Night’s watch: criminals and destitutes get the opportunity to redeem themselves and gain honour in protecting the realm. So this is another point in common with her bastard brother, Jon.

Also, it’s hard to miss the similarities between Lothor Brune’s and Sandor Clegane’s circumstances: low birth, painful familial history, “social promotion” through own merit, and despicable work for despicable master. Yet Sansa considers him good enough for the bastard girl, Mya Stone. Interestingly enough, Lothor’s and Mya’s relationship mirrors Sansa’s and Sandor’s as, at that point, Sansa is a bastard too. In promoting this relationship, Sansa could also be projecting her own personal fantasy and desire.

Oh, lovely point about the Night's watch, especially when we recall that Sansa referred to them as the "black knights" on the Wall. I also think that the Hand's tourney, when LF places a bet on Jaime, foreshadows how Sansa's methods can defeat him in the end. She knows after all the deeper motivations which propel Sandor to victory that day. It's about having a deeper knowledge and consideration for human nature, one that is not simply about knowing what a man wants as LF advises, but seeing what is behind or at the root of the desire.

[Lord Varys]

On that TPatQ thing (House Mooton/Maidenpool):

If I remember Jaime and Brienne's stay in Maidenpool correctly - back in ASoS - then the pool there (and the whole city) has been named after Jonquil and her companions (they are the 'maidens' in 'Maidenpool'). Thus I find it very unlikely that the story of Jonquil originated in the youth of any man who is still alive in 130 AC. But it's very likely that Ser Florian was named after the Florian of the story.

I'd expect that there is talk in Maidenpool that Jonquil and Florian are historical figures who once lived there, but my take on the truth would be that this whole thing is just a story. It may be that the story grew out of real people and some historical events, but it's much more likely in my opinion that they are completely invented characters embodying the virtues of true knighthood and womanhood, respectively.

But I could be wrong.

[Elba the Intoner]

Good points. LF wants to shape Sansa into his vision of her, but that involves the corruption/denial of central facets of her character. The temptation can be alluring: Littlefinger is seemingly offering Sansa everything she ever wanted, and more so the satisfaction of being a game player instead of a piece. But as Jane Eyre shows, that kind of agency is illusory. It's built on another kind of service and inequality that offers "fulfillment" in the guise of having power, or in Jane's case, serving a higher power. True independence and happiness comes not only from having material resources, but in resisting the self-negating schemes of others.

Yes and it's important to note that every man in Jane's life, and I have to include the horrid Mr. Brocklehurst in this as well, tried to control Jane in some manner or other. It's not until she is ina postition to be free from this control that she makes the decision to marry, as she had given up on marrying anyone. That's why I was so struck on this reread by the timing of her decision to agree to marry Rochester. The movie versions make it seem like it's the point when Jane makes the telepathic connection with Rochester, after he calls to her from miles away and she responds, that she is going back to him to marry him, but in the book that is not the case. She wants to see him to make sure he is okay but it's not until she sees him in person and realizes that he has not only changed physically but internally and now must be dependent on her, and she can help him in a truly beneficial way that does not hinder her own nature, that she agrees to marry him.

Excellent work Milady, Brashcandy and Elba :thumbsup:

On Jane Eyre and Sansa’s storyline:

I think this quote from Rochester to Jane fits Sansa’s and Sandor’s relationship extremely well. Like Rochester, Sandor has been turned into a vicious creature (The Hound) because of past mistreatments. And in Sandor’s case, his viciousness has prevented further physical abuses. But like Rochester, his rage and viciousness are not natural character traits. And just like Rochester, Sandor seems to find hard to be “conventional” with Sansa. And Sansa, like Jane, is learning to be “natural” with Sandor.

Thanks Mahaut. I remember reading that scene too and I agree that it applies very well to Sandor and Sansa. The description of Jane holding back from laughing reminds me of how Sansa wants to be able to dance and sing at parties and celebrations but holds herself back from it.

Knighthood motif in Sansa -

Nice catch Brashcandy! Sansa does seem to be making her own knights in her service. In the description of how Lothar Brune was knighted, this time it jumped out at me that his nickname is Lothar Apple Eater. I had forgotten about this but it's another clue to his tie to LF as LF has been described as eating an apple right down to the core in Ned's POV. In LF's case, eating the apple has a nefarious symbolism attached to it, the serpent leading the man astray, whereas for Brune it is a positive. It's as if GRRM has inverted the symbolism for these two perhaps to suggest that under Sansa's influence the apple eater will find a more noble path.

[Milady of York]

If I remember Jaime and Brienne's stay in Maidenpool correctly - back in ASoS - then the pool there (and the whole city) has been named after Jonquil and her companions (they are the 'maidens' in 'Maidenpool'). Thus I find it very unlikely that the story of Jonquil originated in the youth of any man who is still alive in 130 AC.

The quote, from ASOS Jaime III, says this:

At Maidenpool, Lord Mooton’s red salmon still flew above the castle on its hill, but the town walls were deserted, the gates smashed, half the homes and shops burned or plundered. They saw nothing living but a few feral dogs that went slinking away at the sound of their approach. The pool from which the town took its name, where legend said that Florian the Fool had first glimpsed Jonquil bathing with her sisters, was so choked with rotting corpses that the water had turned into a murky grey-green soup.

Jaime took one look and burst into song. “Six maids there were in a spring-fed pool...”

There's no information on when the town was named Maidenpool, and although it's possible that the pool received the name due to Jonquil, it's just as likely that it received the name because it was the usual place for taking baths. The pool existed before Jonquil, after all, and it seems that it was a custom for girls to go bathe there, hence why Jonquil and the other maidens were there when they were first spotted by the jester-knight.

It's quite possible that Florian and Jonquil were real historical figures in-universe, from the early years of the Targaryen reign, and not mere inventions for the sake of songs and stories, as there's no indication that Florian is a figure from the Age of Heroes, about which one could make the argument that they're purely inventions of the bards, such as Serwyn of the Mirror Shield and Daeryssa. Examples such as Aemon/Naerys and the Cargyll twins do tell us that the songs can be based on real historical figures and do contain facts even if they're romanticised. That the name of Jonquil was given to the tower in the Mooton castle and that she's said to have been highborn would indicate that she was either a Mooton, the family that still has the castle two centuries after the Dance, or a member of the family that owned the castle before the Mootons.

[Lord Varys]

Maidenpool and House Mooton already existed during the Conquest. The Mootons were among the first followers of Aegon and sisters (after a short battle between them directly after the landing). Thus we would have to assume that Jonquil was indeed a Mooton if she (or the woman she is based on) lived during the Targaryen reign.

But my take on that would be more that the pool (and subsequently castle and town) were named after Jonquil and her sisters. If this was a bathing pool then not only maidens would bathe there, nor would it be especially likely that it was already named 'the maiden pool' before a really prominent maiden (who subsequently became one of the protagonists of a cycle of songs and stories) ended up bathing there.

It's still a possibility, though.

[Mahaut]

Oh, lovely point about the Night's watch, especially when we recall that Sansa referred to them as the "black knights" on the Wall. I also think that the Hand's tourney, when LF places a bet on Jaime, foreshadows how Sansa's methods can defeat him in the end. She knows after all the deeper motivations which propel Sandor to victory that day. It's about having a deeper knowledge and consideration for human nature, one that is not simply about knowing what a man wants as LF advises, but seeing what is behind or at the root of the desire.

:agree:

And so, Littlefinger has completely misread Sansa deepest wishes. At the end of AFFC, he presents her with “gifts”:

When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn's bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon... and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out... clad in a maiden's cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back... why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa... Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell.

But she doesn’t care about her birthright; we know that she considers her claim as an inconvenience at the moment. She doesn’t want to marry again, and she’s never expressed any interest in the Eyrie. She doesn’t even wish to be the mistress of Winterfell; she simply wants to go home. I don’t think this offer is completely genuine as Littlefinger has nothing to gain from this marriage. However he needs Sansa’s cooperation. But if he hopes to impress her with his “gifts”… I believe that he’s very wrong.

[Disputatious]

Mahaut: "Great gifts are guiles". Perhaps Sansa is by now getting an intuitive understanding that from Littlefinger, such must be the case.

By way of reminder:

"Fine Knacks for Ladies"

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dabqyiJZN0c

(Emma Kirkby, soprano).

[Milady of York]

But my take on that would be more that the pool (and subsequently castle and town) were named after Jonquil and her sisters. If this was a bathing pool then not only maidens would bathe there, nor would it be especially likely that it was already named 'the maiden pool' before a really prominent maiden (who subsequently became one of the protagonists of a cycle of songs and stories) ended up bathing there.

We don't read anything about anyone else going to bathe in that pool, but I don't believe that the presence of Jonquil and sisters is an indication that these maidens were the only ones that bathed there, and that it automatically indicates that the pool was named after her, which is quite possible as I've stressed before, but not the sole possible explanation. Consider that men and women did share public bathing places in medieval times despite what is commonly believed now and despite clerical outrage at co-ed bathing, because those were socialising places above all, and there was no sex segregation at these places, though sometimes there were hours reserved for one gender exclusively so both wouldn't mingle at baths, to protect maidenly virtue, which would apply to a world like Westeros as well.

The argument posed was that since ASOS Jaime III indicated that the pool and town and castle tower were named after Jonquil, it meant that the story was an invention. And my argument is that whether Maidenpool was or wasn't named after Jonquil bears no significance on the in-universe historicity of the woman, and in fact it would indicate that she did exist and lived there, in that castle. Castle towers usually aren't named after any random legendary female figure in these books: the Maidenvault was so named aften the Targaryen princesses confined there, the Maiden's Tower at the Eyrie could very well be named after Jeyne Arryn, the Maiden of the Vale, if it didn't have that name before as they can change with time, and so on; so it stands to reason that Castle Mooton's tower bearing Jonquil's name is due to the fact that the historical woman lived there, and probably was a Mooton herself.

And then you said that it was unlikely that the story originated in the youth of anyone still alive at the time of the Dance of the Dragons, but there are some details that would allow a different interpretation. So House Mooton supported Aegon the Dragon during the Conquest after a short battle against him? Interesting detail, certainly. That about strengthens my hypothesis that Jonquil could have lived during the early days of the Targaryen reign, an assumption I had made based on this passage from The Hedge Knight:

"That was good," Egg enthused. "I like how you make them move, Jonquil and the dragon and all. I saw a puppet show last year, but they moved all jerky. Yours are more smooth."

"Thank you," she told the boy politely.

Dunk said, "Your figures are well carved too. The dragon, especially. A fearsome beast. You make them yourself?"

Which reveals that the tale of Florian and Jonquil does involve a dragon, and taking into account Prince Aerion's violent reaction to the puppets that Tanselle Too-Tall used for representing this story, plus the historical tidbit on House Mooton you kindly added, we could argue that it was a Targaryen dragon, maybe Balerion if we go by Duncan's description. And there's a giant in the tale, too, which raises the suspicion that the song's lyrics could contain eye-opening details for Sansa's arc, the only other character whose storyline has a giant in it (and will arguably have a dragon in it too, with the Dance of the Dragons 2.0 coming up), hence GRRM's reluctance to give us at least a verse aside Jaime's mocking line, a curious silence given that this is the cycle of songs most mentioned in the ASOIAF books and the Dunk & Egg tales, and Sansa leads the count of mentions per chapter followed by Ser Duncan.

[Mahaut]

Mahaut: "Great gifts are guiles". Perhaps Sansa is by now getting an intuitive understanding that from Littlefinger, such must be the case.

By way of reminder:

"Fine Knacks for Ladies"

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dabqyiJZN0c

(Emma Kirkby, soprano).

Of course she is aware of that, Littlefinger told her so himself; lies and Arbor Gold:

“The lies I served him were sweeter than the truth. He wants to believe that Lysa valued him above her other bannermen”

My point is that Littlefinger completely misreads Sansa’s wishes and that those gifts don’t appeal to her at all. Because, as Brashcandy noted, he has no consideration for the deeper aspirations of human nature.

[Annara Snow]

:agree:

And so, Littlefinger has completely misread Sansa deepest wishes. At the end of AFFC, he presents her with “gifts”:

When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn's bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon... and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out... clad in a maiden's cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back... why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa... Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell.

But she doesn’t care about her birthright; we know that she considers her claim as an inconvenience at the moment. She doesn’t want to marry again, and she’s never expressed any interest in the Eyrie. She doesn’t even wish to be the mistress of Winterfell; she simply wants to go home. I don’t think this offer is completely genuine as Littlefinger has nothing to gain from this marriage. However he needs Sansa’s cooperation. But if he hopes to impress her with his “gifts”… I believe that he’s very wrong.

Exactly. And he also seemed to think that she would be impressed by Harry himself, for being handsome, a knight, and "gallant" as LF describes him. Instead, the first thing she remembers about Harry is that he's fathered two bastards, and she LF's description of his looks and 'gallant' charm leave her indifferent - when he says she would be envied by every woman in the Vale if she marries Harry, her spontaneous question is "Why?" before she guesses that it's because of a claim (just like she is wanted by so many for her claim). LF tried to buy her with "a boy and promises". But it's another sign of just how much he's misread her. He sees her as the 11-year old who was infatuated with Joffrey and Loras and wanted to be Joffrey's queen, and he's drawn conclusions about what she wants from that, not knowing how much she's changed her views, and what her real deepest desires are.

[Mahaut]

Here is just a little piece of random trivia that might be interesting for this thread.

I blame my Secret Santa for this...

There is an area in North Wales called Snowdonia. It is a mountainous area and contains some of the highest British mountains south of Scotland. In Welsh Snowdonia is called Eryri which is traditionally translated by “the land of the eagle” as eryr means eagle. However, this interpretation has been recently called into question and it is nowadays assumed that Eryri comes from the medieval Welsh eryr which means “a high place”. According to John T Koch’s Celtic Culture: An Historical Encyclopedia,

even if Eryri had not originally meant ‘eyrie’, this idea would automatically occur to any Welsh speaker, writer, or poet . . . In a transferred sense, eryr is often used as a kenning for ‘hero’ in Welsh poetry, which adds further significance to the place-name as the traditional mountain stronghold of the strongest and most militaristic independent Welsh kingdom, Gwynedd.

In Welsh history, Eryri is a place of resistance as it is there that the Princes of Wales retreated when they were attacked by the Norman kings. And it there that stood their last stronghold when they were finally surrounded by the Norman forces.

What follows is even more interesting for this thread:

Yr Widdfa (lit. “the tumulus”, Snowdon) is the highest peak in Wales (1085 m.). It is associated with the warlike giant Rhita Gawr (or Ricca), who was killed by Arthur and buried at the summit.

It is also thought that the famous “king” Arthur may have been a Romano-British warlord who dueled in these mountains and lead the resistance against the Saxons during the period known as the “Dark Ages”.

Birds of prey, similar names, similar landscapes, similar history (place of resistance) and a giant… that’s too many coincidences for me. And last but not least, let’s not forget the association Wales-dragon as there’s a red dragon on the Welsh flag. And like Wales, the Vale has a particular relationship with dragons as the last king of the Vale was allowed to ride one (with Visenya). And we know a little boy who has an unhealthy fascination with everything that has to do with flying too...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Exactly. And he also seemed to think that she would be impressed by Harry himself, for being handsome, a knight, and "gallant" as LF describes him. Instead, the first thing she remembers about Harry is that he's fathered two bastards, and she LF's description of his looks and 'gallant' charm leave her indifferent - when he says she would be envied by every woman in the Vale if she marries Harry, her spontaneous question is "Why?" before she guesses that it's because of a claim (just like she is wanted by so many for her claim). LF tried to buy her with "a boy and promises". But it's another sign of just how much he's misread her. He sees her as the 11-year old who was infatuated with Joffrey and Loras and wanted to be Joffrey's queen, and he's drawn conclusions about what she wants from that, not knowing how much she's changed her views, and what her real deepest desires are.

Hmm, reading this passage gives me a very different impression: Littlefinger is constantly undermining all the "gallant knight" points when describing Harry. I believe he's not selling her a gallant knight, but rather, he's trying to sell her a pawn. I think he wants to make her "partnair in crime" in using Harry in the way Sansa has been used before, that is for his claim. He wants to turn her into his mini-me.

[brashcandy]

Birds of prey, similar names, similar landscapes, similar history (place of resistance) and a giant… that’s too many coincidences for me. And last but not least, let’s not forget the association Wales-dragon as there’s a red dragon on the Welsh flag. And like Wales, the Vale has a particular relationship with dragons as the last king of the Vale was allowed to ride one (with Visenya). And we know a little boy who has an unhealthy fascination with everything that has to do with flying too...

Very interesting Mahaut :) The Eyrie might be boarded up for the winter, but it still seems like we're going to see its symbolic value playing out in Sansa's story: SR's dream of flying (and making people fly, heh) was no doubt inspired by his sojourn there; Tyrion's grudge against Lysa Arryn (the Eyrie as impregnable) may bring the dragons to the Vale; and Sansa's emboldened experiences of "coming down the mountain" could be instrumental in helping her to resist LF's plans.

Hmm, reading this passage gives me a very different impression: Littlefinger is constantly undermining all the "gallant knight" points when describing Harry. I believe he's not selling her a gallant knight, but rather, he's trying to sell her a pawn. I think he wants to make her "partnair in crime" in using Harry in the way Sansa has been used before, that is for his claim. He wants to turn her into his mini-me.

Yes, he's definitely setting Harry up as a pawn that she can easily conquer; he speaks of his "boyish heart", mentions the fact that there's another bastard on the way, and he already told Sansa at some point that young girls are happier with older men - a sure nudge in his own direction if there ever was one. However, this doesn't contradict the point that he's still expecting her to easily get in line with this agenda because he believes Harry fits her ideal of a dreamy knight. By giving Sansa something she always wanted but setting it up through the frame of a game play, he not only wants to turn her into his mini-me, but to ensure that she turns to him in the end as a desired lover.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Yes, he's definitely setting Harry up as a pawn that she can easily conquer; he speaks of his "boyish heart", mentions the fact that there's another bastard on the way, and he already told Sansa at some point that young girls are happier with older men - a sure nudge in his own direction if there ever was one. However, this doesn't contradict the point that he's still expecting her to easily get in line with this agenda because he believes Harry fits her ideal of a dreamy knight. By giving Sansa something she always wanted but setting it up through the frame of a game play, he not only wants to turn her into his mini-me, but to ensure that she turns to him in the end as a desired lover.

On the bolded part, I don't think so. It's because of this line: "[...] And very gallant, I am told.” He teased her with a smile.

I always thought that it has a subtext implying "but we are not little girls anymore to believe in gallant knights, are we?"

ETA: I think it will be very interesting to see how the Harry plot will play out, because from the little we know about him, I imagine him as the boyish equivalent of early AGOT Sansa. Maybe we'll see the gallant maid save the fair knight from the monster's machinations...

[Lord Varys]

On dragons and stories:

If I'm not severely mistaken then dragons only became (or rather: were allowed to become) an important obstacle for heroes to overcome in literary fiction or plays after the last Targaryen dragon died. Baelor Breakspear indicates in THK that Aerion did have a point when accusing that Tanselle and her co-workers that killing a dragon could be interpreted as a veiled threat against House Targaryen. Maekar apparently bought that, or did not consider this a completely stupid idea, or else he would not have pushed his brother to conduct a trial.

GRRM did confirm that - if I'm not mistaken - afterwards. The question why the Targaryen dynasty did allow that the dragon - their heraldic symbol and once the living base of their power - to be painted in a bad light was raised, and he said that it only became common to use a dragon as fairy tale monster - similar to the dragons knights slew in fiction - after the Targaryens no longer had any dragons.

Perhaps such tales were also told before the Conquest, but I really can't see much anti-dragon fiction going on in Westeros during the dragon era. The Targaryens rule was grounded on dragons, and it was part of their policy and propaganda to identify themselves with their dragons to a certain degree ('blood of the dragon' and stuff).

Thus it is very unlikely that a real dragon was ever part of the Jonquil and Florian story. Let's assume that Florian and Jonquil were historic figures living during the reign of Jaehaerys I. If Balerion or any other Targaryen was really involved in the real events behind the story, and if Florian really killed that particular Targaryen dragon, then this whole episode would not have been source material from which a popular story could have been told. Remember, Egg is fond of Florian and Jonquil. And at the same time he is looking forward to the moment when the Targaryen dragons return. If Florian's dragon existed and if he was a Targaryen dragon, then even Egg would not look all that kindly on Tanselle's play. Especially not if the historical Florian would be the one who killed Balerion.

As to my own take on the origin of the story:

I'm not sure about that. It could be that the story goes back such a long time to be the source for the naming of the pool and the subsequent town and castle close by. It could be that Jonquil's Tower was not named after the Jonquil of the story but to honor a Jonquil Mooton (or a Jonquil of a noble house holding Maidenpool before the Mootons - if there was such a house). The popularity of the story could have caused the people in and around Maidenpool to name their children Jonquil and Florian rather than the other way around.

[brashcandy]

On the bolded part, I don't think so. It's because of this line: "[...] And very gallant, I am told.” He teased her with a smile.

I always thought that it has a subtext implying "but we are not little girls anymore to believe in gallant knights, are we?"

ETA: I think it will be very interesting to see how the Harry plot will play out, because from the little we know about him, I imagine him as the boyish equivalent of early AGOT Sansa. Maybe we'll see the gallant maid save the fair knight from the monster's machinations.

I don't know how much the "teased her with a smile" changes the dynamics here. We know that based on LF's own interest in Sansa, HtH is never going to be a viable long term prospect as a husband. However, in the interim and for his own plans, LF needs to set him up as desirable, even as he's positioning him as a game play for Alayne to easily achieve. It will work (according to his logic) because of what he assumes Sansa is still interested in. As he says:

“Bastard-born or no, sweetling, when this match is announced you will be the envy of every highborn maiden in the Vale, and a few from the riverlands and the Reach as well.”

And at the end of the conversation, Harry is packaged right along with the other "gifts":

“When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time. When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn’s bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon . . . and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden’s cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That’s worth another kiss now, don’t you think?”

As usual, LF is using people to play the game and ensure his own gain at the same time. He gave the Gates to Nestor Royce but made sure to point out that it was contingent on him remaining in power. I see the same thing essentially happening with Sansa; he's giving her Harry, but also laying the groundwork for her to ultimately come to him as the much more sophisticated and suave game master.

[ladytiger]

I don't know how much the "teased her with a smile" changes the dynamics here. We know that based on LF's own interest in Sansa, HtH is never going to be a viable long term prospect as a husband. However, in the interim and for his own plans, LF needs to set him up as desirable, even as he's positioning him as a game play for Alayne to easily achieve. It will work (according to his logic) because of what he assumes Sansa is still interested in. As he says:

And at the end of the conversation, Harry is packaged right along with the other "gifts":

As usual, LF is using people to play the game and ensure his own gain at the same time. He gave the Gates to Nestor Royce but made sure to point out that it was contingent on him remaining in power. I see the same thing essentially happening with Sansa; he's giving her Harry, but also laying the groundwork for her to ultimately come to him as the much more sophisticated and suave game master.

Besides Jon's storyline, Sansa is the next storyline that I'm the most curious to see in TWoW. So much is occurring in the Vale right now; it was such a disappointment to see no Sansa chapters in ADWD and then to hear about the controversial Sansa chapter...just hope that George (since he has no events to attend until May) finishes up the book!!

[ugashep]

I was going to post something snarky, but then I saw the great amount of work and thought many of you have put into Sansa analysis and I couldn't do it. One of things I will be most interested to see in the TWOW is whether Sansa does move from pawn to player or whether she moves from pawn to pawn.

[Milady of York]

If Florian's dragon existed and if he was a Targaryen dragon, then even Egg would not look all that kindly on Tanselle's play. Especially not if the historical Florian would be the one who killed Balerion.

So, the point is that since the original source material is harmful to the image of the Targaryens, none of them would have allowed it to exist and no member of the family would’ve liked it? I don’t think so. Take the songs of Aemon/Naerys for example, which sprouted and were popularised during the Targaryens and that are harmful to their reputation, as the suggestion is that the Queen and the Dragonknight were lovers, and that Daeron II is the product of that affair, which would throw the legitimacy of the subsequent rulers into question, as Daeron would be then the Dragonknight’s bastard, and if the rumour was started by the likes of Daemon Blackfyre et al., then there’s more reason for the Targaryens to try and stifle that rumour that evolved into song, more so given how many times the Blackfyres caused trouble to the main branch … yet you have one of them, Maester Aemon, telling Jon that the Dragonknight was his grandfather’s “uncle, or his father, depending on which tale you believe,” basically giving credit to the songs. Therefore the argument that Egg wouldn’t be so fond of Florian and Jonquil if a real dragon were killed in it isn’t very strong, in my opinion.

In any case, the reason for insisting that this song is based on real events is twofold: one, that there’s this pattern in Sansa’s fondness of tales and songs: her most favourite ones are, in order, Florian and Jonquil and Aemon and Naerys, and she also shows a preference for the tales of Ser Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn and Daeryssa, and Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk, which are all based on in-universe historical figures from the Targaryen era—save for Ser Serwyn and Daeryssa, who are “fictional” in-universe—as we know the two Targaryens existed and the rumours of their illicit love that got into the songs were known during their time, and that Ser Ryam was a Kingsguard as well as the Cargyll twins. That leaves us with Florian and Jonquil, about which we don’t have enough elements to speculate about at length, but which do allow us to argue that they were historical as well. And second, that GRRM tends to repeat history, inverted and twisted, as we can see in the tale of Bael the Bard which can shed light on certain aspects of Jon Snow’s arc, and the song of Aemon and Naerys which, regardless of how much truth is in there, mirrors the relationship of Jaime and Cersei, etc. in Sansa’s arc, both her favourite songs are being replayed: her relationship with the Hound has Aemon/Naerys elements (the bad king’s betrothed and the Kingsguard who protects her), and Florian and Jonquil also features prominently in her arc, but we don’t know the contents of the tale as we do the plot of Aemon/Naerys, save for tidbits from other tales that we’re trying to piece together to form a picture that allows us to guess what could come up in her storyline.

[Annara Snow]

ETA: I think it will be very interesting to see how the Harry plot will play out, because from the little we know about him, I imagine him as the boyish equivalent of early AGOT Sansa. Maybe we'll see the gallant maid save the fair knight from the monster's machinations...

I don't see that. What we know of him is that he's been fathering bastards - naturally on girls who wouldn't be deemed highborn enough for him to marry - rather than dreaming of rescuing fair maidens and true love. I'd be willing to bet that, like young Robert Baratheon, he'd be more interested in bawdy songs than in tragic ballads about the likes of Florian and Jonquil or prince Aemon the Dragonknight and queen Naerys.

ETA: And since Harry is obviously a womanizer, I don't see LF's phrase "boyish" heart as a reference to any supposed innocence or romanticism; it's more likely to be a nice way to say that Harry is girl-crazy, and that Sansa has to entice him with her beauty but also to play hard to get, until he gets mad about her enough to want to marry a "bastard" so he could get her into his bed.