From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XXI

[Mladen]

I don't see that. What we know of him is that he's been fathering bastards - naturally on girls who wouldn't be deemed highborn enough for him to marry - rather than dreaming of rescuing fair maidens and true love. I'd be willing to bet that, like young Robert Baratheon, he'd be more interested in bawdy songs than in tragic ballads about the likes of Florian and Jonquil or prince Aemon the Dragonknight and queen Naerys.

Harry is still a mystery for me. In all my scenarios regarding him and Sansa, I see him being part of Royce's plot to help her bring LF down. I also see him madly in love with Sansa, and she rejecting his love (please, don't ask me how I came to that). All in all, I don't think he will necessarily be bad. I think he might be Sansa's ally, but as brashcandy told me once, I have this rather naive idea of everything going smoothly for Sansa in Vale. IDK, Annara, I imagine him as the ASOIAF version of Finnick Odair (minus prostitution). So, I am keeping my fingers crossed in hope I am right regarding benevolent nature of people in Vale. And yes, I know how idiotic it sounds.

[Annara Snow]

Harry is still a mystery for me. In all my scenarios regarding him and Sansa, I see him being part of Royce's plot to help her bring LF down. I also see him madly in love with Sansa, and she rejecting his love (please, don't ask me how I came to that). All in all, I don't think he will necessarily be bad. I think he might be Sansa's ally, but as brashcandy told me once, I have this rather naive idea of everything going smoothly for Sansa in Vale. IDK, Annara, I imagine him as the ASOIAF version of Finnick Odair (minus prostitution). So, I am keeping my fingers crossed in hope I am right regarding benevolent nature of people in Vale. And yes, I know how idiotic it sounds.

Harry may not be bad, but he seem much more like Robert Baratheon than Finnick Odair. Finnick just pretends to be a shallow womanizer, because it's his public image that he has to uphold, while he's completely devoted to a mentally ill girl he loves, and as we find out in Mockingjay,

he is actually a victim of sexual abuse - forced into prostitution by Snow.

If anything, Finnick's position was more similar to

Sansa's, with Snow as LF (minus the kissing and groping and asking to be called 'father' - or at least I hope so) - Snow used Finnick for his schemes to get secrets from wealthy Capitol citizens so he could blackmail them, while LF is using Sansa for his own schemes involving the Vale lords and probably others.

[brashcandy]

ETA: And since Harry is obviously a womanizer, I don't see LF's phrase "boyish" heart as a reference to any supposed innocence or romanticism; it's more likely to be a nice way to say that Harry is girl-crazy, and that Sansa has to entice him with her beauty but also to play hard to get, until he gets mad about her enough to want to marry a "bastard" so he could get her into his bed.

No not innocence, but a level of immaturity is certainly implied. The full quote is relevant with regard to Alayne's task:

"...You are promised to Harrold Hardyng, sweetling, provided you can win his boyish heart . . . which should not be hard, for you.”

Concerning Harry's character, I think the parallel with Marillion is telling:

Marillion was comely, there was no denying it; boyish and slender, with smooth skin, sandy hair, a charming smile. But he had made himself well hated in the Vale, by everyone but her aunt and little Lord Robert.

[Mladen]

Harry may not be bad, but he seem much more like Robert Baratheon than Finnick Odair. Finnick just pretends to be a shallow womanizer, because it's his public image that he has to uphold, while he's completely devoted to a mentally ill girl he loves, and as we find out in Mockingjay,

he is actually a victim of sexual abuse - forced into prostitution by Snow.

If anything, Finnick's position was more similar to

Sansa's, with Snow as LF (minus the kissing and groping and asking to be called 'father' - or at least I hope so) - Snow used Finnick for his schemes to get secrets from wealthy Capitol citizens so he could blackmail them, while LF is using Sansa for his own schemes involving the Vale lords and probably others.

Interesting parallel. I have read the books, and his character, visually is something I had in mind for Harry... Just the approach was something I use in my mind when Harry is being mentioned... I may be wrong but I see that dandy Vale boy falling for Sansa, not knowing she loves another.

And beside, quick off-topic,

For me, Stark ladies were always Galadriel/Eowyn inspired... Especially Eowyn's description which are so applicable for Sansa. And, Annara, dear, I will need your help in translating my signature :)

[ladytiger]

Interesting parallel. I have read the books, and his character, visually is something I had in mind for Harry... Just the approach was something I use in my mind when Harry is being mentioned... I may be wrong but I see that dandy Vale boy falling for Sansa, not knowing she loves another.

And beside, quick off-topic,

For me, Stark ladies were always Galadriel/Eowyn inspired... Especially Eowyn's description which are so applicable for Sansa. And, Annara, dear, I will need your help in translating my signature :)

I think that Sansa's story with Harry parallels Lyanna with Robert. Harry has a Vale bastard and one on the way, while Robert had one (Mya Stone); Lyanna told Ned that love is sweet, but that it won't change a man's nature. Lyanna knew that Robert, despite how deeply infatuated he was with her, would probably still whore around and have bastards while married. Lyanna wasn't happy with that, and having the Wolf's blood, ran off with the man she loved, Rhaegar. I observed from the last Sansa chapter when Littlefinger is telling her about Harry, that she knows that she wants a man who will love her for herself, and not for her claim. Plus she knows that Harry will probably still whore around once they're married, like Robert would have done to Lyanna. Could it be likely that, assuming the Elder Brother is posing in the Vale, that he would reveal himself to Sansa/Alayne? And we all know that Sansa thinks of the UnKiss and Sandor so much in her chapters; she's constantly comparing other men to him. Would she be willing to be with him, knowing how he protected her and would genuinely love her for herself and not for her claim to Winterfell? We shall see.

[Pod The Impaler]

Hmm, reading this passage gives me a very different impression: Littlefinger is constantly undermining all the "gallant knight" points when describing Harry. I believe he's not selling her a gallant knight, but rather, he's trying to sell her a pawn. I think he wants to make her "partnair in crime" in using Harry in the way Sansa has been used before, that is for his claim. He wants to turn her into his mini-me.

Yes, he's definitely setting Harry up as a pawn that she can easily conquer; he speaks of his "boyish heart", mentions the fact that there's another bastard on the way, and he already told Sansa at some point that young girls are happier with older men - a sure nudge in his own direction if there ever was one. However, this doesn't contradict the point that he's still expecting her to easily get in line with this agenda because he believes Harry fits her ideal of a dreamy knight. By giving Sansa something she always wanted but setting it up through the frame of a game play, he not only wants to turn her into his mini-me, but to ensure that she turns to him in the end as a desired lover.

On the bolded part, I don't think so. It's because of this line: "[...] And very gallant, I am told.” He teased her with a smile.

I always thought that it has a subtext implying "but we are not little girls anymore to believe in gallant knights, are we?"

I don't know how much the "teased her with a smile" changes the dynamics here. We know that based on LF's own interest in Sansa, HtH is never going to be a viable long term prospect as a husband. However, in the interim and for his own plans, LF needs to set him up as desirable, even as he's positioning him as a game play for Alayne to easily achieve. It will work (according to his logic) because of what he assumes Sansa is still interested in. As he says:

And at the end of the conversation, Harry is packaged right along with the other "gifts":

As usual, LF is using people to play the game and ensure his own gain at the same time. He gave the Gates to Nestor Royce but made sure to point out that it was contingent on him remaining in power. I see the same thing essentially happening with Sansa; he's giving her Harry, but also laying the groundwork for her to ultimately come to him as the much more sophisticated and suave game master.

I don't see that. What we know of him is that he's been fathering bastards - naturally on girls who wouldn't be deemed highborn enough for him to marry - rather than dreaming of rescuing fair maidens and true love. I'd be willing to bet that, like young Robert Baratheon, he'd be more interested in bawdy songs than in tragic ballads about the likes of Florian and Jonquil or prince Aemon the Dragonknight and queen Naerys.

ETA: And since Harry is obviously a womanizer, I don't see LF's phrase "boyish" heart as a reference to any supposed innocence or romanticism; it's more likely to be a nice way to say that Harry is girl-crazy, and that Sansa has to entice him with her beauty but also to play hard to get, until he gets mad about her enough to want to marry a "bastard" so he could get her into his bed.

No not innocence, but a level of immaturity is certainly implied. The full quote is relevant with regard to Alayne's task:

"...You are promised to Harrold Hardyng, sweetling, provided you can win his boyish heart . . . which should not be hard, for you.”

I think that Sansa's story with Harry parallels Lyanna with Robert. Harry has a Vale bastard and one on the way, while Robert had one (Mya Stone); Lyanna told Ned that love is sweet, but that it won't change a man's nature. Lyanna knew that Robert, despite how deeply infatuated he was with her, would probably still whore around and have bastards while married. Lyanna wasn't happy with that, and having the Wolf's blood, ran off with the man she loved, Rhaegar. I observed from the last Sansa chapter when Littlefinger is telling her about Harry, that she knows that she wants a man who will love her for herself, and not for her claim. Plus she knows that Harry will probably still whore around once they're married, like Robert would have done to Lyanna. Could it be likely that, assuming the Elder Brother is posing in the Vale, that he would reveal himself to Sansa/Alayne? And we all know that Sansa thinks of the UnKiss and Sandor so much in her chapters; she's constantly comparing other men to him. Would she be willing to be with him, knowing how he protected her and would genuinely love her for herself and not for her claim to Winterfell? We shall see.

I agree that Littlefinger's game with Harry seems to involve Sansa being more in control of the situation. I am not certain that his game is to have Sansa be won over by the comely young knight. That would be one option, but the odds favour it going the other way around - Sansa as the temptress.

First of all, we know Harry is no true "boy" if he has a bastard or two, so he can't be treated as a wide-eyed innocent. As some have pointed out, he seems more like the Robert Baratheon type. Maybe he dies not with Robert's warrior ability, but the Vale lords (Bronze Yohn included) are pumping the lad up as a young knight and future lord Arryn (due to Sweetrobin having basically no future), so with that effort and his ability to easily bed the ladies, Harry may have a swelled head. Aside from the Robert comparison, there's also the likes of Theon Greyjoy (in AGOT) and Young Griff. To the Vale lords, this may be the sort of daring young lord they would want to mentor to greatness, but to Lord Baelish someone like that would be a person riddled with weaknesses which can be exploited: gallantry, overconfidence, a weakness for the ladies, arrogance. It would be easy to manipulate Harry, with flattery and promises of power, and most inportantly, a beautiful woman.

Second of all, keep in mind what I mean when I say Sansa can function as the "temptress". Littlefinger, of all people, knows how to use beautiful women and the promise of pleasure to get what he wants. He was pimp-in-chief to the nobility of King's Landing; he can offer expertise in sexual and emotional tradecraft. As such, he can teach Sansa how to attract Harry, how to stoke his lust and pride, but then deny him an easy conquest. Sansa's become a stunning beauty, and even as "bastard" Alayne her attractiveness and charm would already be whispered of around the Vale. Sansa herself could behave like Margaery Tyrell, with just her charm and presence being enough to create a following. The Lord protector's gorgeous and virtuous daughter ? Imagine how Harry would be intrigued before having even met her.

So basically, what we're seeing for Littlefinger's envisioning of Sansa's role is more active, more "knowing", and not really in keeping with a little girl's desire for a gallant knight to save her. Harry's bold and comely, but no true knight - and LF has cast doubt on the value of true gallantry to her anyway. Sansa's not being groomed to be an innocent little maid, but only to seem it while she plays the game. As such Sansa would be Lord Baelish's partner in crime, keeping up the pretense of being Alayne up to a point, keeping Harry interested until he and the Vale lords are snookered.

However...

Some have posited that the Hound may reappear and throw a wrench in the works (or Sansa's desire for him will). I have another possible person who may cause the scheme to break down: Mya Stone.

Mya Stone is a bastard, like "Alayne", but being a Stone, she's a highborn bastard. It is known (by all but her) that Robert Baratheon was her father. Nothing is stated about who the mother was, but presumably, she was a highborn girl.

Sansa has the example of Mya Stone, and by way of this, of a Robert Baratheon type of boy. People speak of Lyanna as a passive parallel, but in Sansa's contemplating Mya Stone's existence, it may become an active thing, something that will ultimately interfere with her going along with the general scheme. Sansa is familiar with the Lyanna story too, knew Robert before he died, and being a Stark, she may decide she wants no part of this. As well, being "Alayne" has given her a new perspective on bastardy - on her mother's issues with Jon, and on Jon's having suffered. She may refuse the scheme because somewhere out there there is another Jon Snow or Mya Stone, and out of compassion she may feel Harry may need to acknowledge them, not run to a new life with her.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I don't see that. What we know of him is that he's been fathering bastards - naturally on girls who wouldn't be deemed highborn enough for him to marry - rather than dreaming of rescuing fair maidens and true love. I'd be willing to bet that, like young Robert Baratheon, he'd be more interested in bawdy songs than in tragic ballads about the likes of Florian and Jonquil or prince Aemon the Dragonknight and queen Naerys.

ETA: And since Harry is obviously a womanizer, I don't see LF's phrase "boyish" heart as a reference to any supposed innocence or romanticism; it's more likely to be a nice way to say that Harry is girl-crazy, and that Sansa has to entice him with her beauty but also to play hard to get, until he gets mad about her enough to want to marry a "bastard" so he could get her into his bed.

Sorry, I've been too lazy to explain what I see as parallels between the girl Sansa and the boy Harry. I wasn't referring to their dreams and their characters being the same. I mean that, by the way Harry is portayed, he is supposed to be the "perfect little lordling" like Sansa was the "perfect little lady". Behind the roles, they are people with their merits and their flaws. (I don't see his weakness for the ladies as something terribly awful, for me it's more about an exploitable character flaw.) I view him as an immature boy enjoying his youth and the advantages that come with his social position, ignorant of the Game and the way everyone around him are using him as a pawn.

His life is nowhere near what Sansa has been through (and objectively, he is not vulnerable by position), but still there are parallels. He doesn't have a family to care for him and guide him. His ward is ready to sell him for gold, as Littlefinger says. Bronze Yonn has plans about him, we know he's trying to become his main influence. Littlefinger's counter move is to get him in his grab through Sansa. None of them care too much about Harry's qualities or flaws (in any other way than using them against him), to them he's not but a claim, like Sansa was for the Tyrells, the Lanisters and even for her own aunt.

Now, Littlefinger requires Sansa to do to Harry the same thing that all the above have done to her: to manipulate him, to use his feelings and his weaknesses against him, in order to get for herself the power that comes from his claim. I'm not thinking of love story between them. But I could see Sansa feeling compassion for a boy who is in a somewhat similar situation, and trying to help him.

In short, I think that Sansa's dilemma won't be Harry as person, but whether she'll accept to adopt the mentality and the morals of the very people who made her a victim. I'd like to believe that she won't.

edit: spelling and clarification

[brashcandy]

Sansa has the example of Mya Stone, and by way of this, of a Robert Baratheon type of boy. People speak of Lyanna as a passive parallel, but in contemplating Mya Stone, it may be an active thing, something that will ultimately interfere with her going along with the general scheme. Sansa is familiar with the Lyanna story too, knew Robert before he died, and being a Stark, she may decide she wants no part of this. As well, being "Alayne" has given her a new perspective on bastardy - on her mother's issues with Jon, and on Jon's having suffered. She may refuse the scheme because somewhere out there there is another Jon Snow or Mya Stone, and out of compassion she may feel Harry may need to acknowledge them, not run to a new life with her.

Sansa is aware that things might have been different from Mya if Robert had acknowledged her, but it's a very practical appreciation of the situation, and that's in keeping with how she has approached these kinds of issues before. I could certainly see Sansa encouraging Harry to take responsibility for his natural children, but it's not enough by itself to prevent her from seeking a life with him if that's what she really wanted. The problem Lyanna had with Robert wasn't simply that he had a bastard child, but that it was only the beginning of what she rightly sensed was a reckless pattern of behaviour stemming from a complete lack of ability to be faithful. That she might not have been very attracted to Robert's "personality type" is also to be considered.

I think Mya's influence is meant to encourage Sansa's developing independence, which is necessary in breaking away from Littlefinger; and to give her a model (along with Lothor Brune) upon which to explore her feelings for Sandor Clegane.

Now, Littlefinger requires Sansa to do to Harry the same thing that all the above have done to her: to manipulate him, to use his feelings and his weaknesses against him, in order to get for herself the power that comes from his claim. I'm not thinking of love story between them. But I could see Sansa feeling compassion for a boy who is in a somewhat similar situation, and trying to help him.

But the person who's really vulnerable in this situation and whose claim is up for misuse isn't Harry but Sweetrobin. He's the one LF is planning to kill so that Harry's claim can even be activated. What does Harry risk in all this? Becoming Lord of the Eyrie and getting an heiress as a bride? Or on the flip side getting his heart broken? Sweetrobin on the other hand is actually facing death.

Harry does have a family that cares about his interests, hence why LF says:

Petyr put a finger to her lips to silence her. “The dwarf wed Ned Stark’s daughter, not mine. Be that as it may. This is only a betrothal. The marriage must needs wait until Cersei is done and Sansa’s safely widowed. And you must meet the boy and win his approval. Lady Waynwood will not make him marry against his will, she was quite firm on that.”

Bronze Yohn organized the tourney to give him a chance to win the honours and advance his career as a knight, so there doesn't seem to be any nefarious plans for the boy on that end either. Right now, whatever compassion Sansa holds must be directed towards the person in true jeopardy in this scenario. It doesn't mean she can't feel badly about Harry being misled for the moment, but it's still her and SR's claims that are to be exploited for gain. Harry would be Lord of the Eyrie, with all the power therein, and Sansa would simply be his lady wife. Then he can look forward to Winterfell as the grand prize in all this.

In short, I think that Sansa's dilemma won't be Harry as person, but whether she'll accept to adopt the mentality and the morals of the very people who made her a victim. I'd like to believe that she won't.

On this we agree, I just don't see Harry having any central relevance or sympathetic appeal with respect to the dilemma Sansa is facing. Perhaps on the periphery as another figure that stands to ultimately lose in LF's plots, but not within the current narrative structure.

[Lord Varys]

On 'political songs':

My take on the rumors about Naerys and Aemon (and about the songs that evolved out of these rumors) is that they were baseless accusations (at least insofar as they accused Aemon and Naerys having a romantic relationship) which originated and spred after Daeron II had already ascended the Iron Throne.

1. There is the fact that romantic love is a very uncommon thing among true siblings. TPatQ showed us yet another Targaryen incest marriage (Aegon and Helaena) that was only a political marriage. There was no love between these two.

2. Daeron II is born when both when all the children of Viserys II are still very young (it was during the reign of Aegon III). It would make little sense to assume that Naerys had an affair with her brother back then, and not much later, when she really suffered from the hands of the Unworthy. If we assume that Naerys and Aemon had a love relationship beginning before the birth of Daeron II and continuing - perhaps with some breaks - throughout the reigns of their uncle, their two cousins, their father and their elder brother, we would have to stretch credibility pretty much. Any king - Aegon III, Daeron I, Baelor the Blessed (especially him!), and their father Viserys II (who served as Hand under Daeron I and Baelor I) - hearing about these rumors (or learning about these facts) would have put a stop to them. If Baelor the Blessed had learned about it he would most certainly have treated Naerys worse than his own sisters, nor could I see him marrying Daeron Falseborn to Princess Myriah Martell.

3. But let's assume for a moment that Aemon and Naerys had the skills to hide their affair throughout all these years (that alone would make them much more skilled at secrecy than Jaime and Cersei, and what we know about both historical figures strongly suggests that they had pretty much nothing in common with Cersei and Jaime). Judging the character of Aegon the Unworthy we'd have to assume then that this affair was never public knowledge throughout his entire reign. We know what he did to Terrence Toyne and his mistress after he learned that they had an affair. Making fun of/humiliating the queen and the king's brother (who also happens to be the Realm's finest knight) would have made King Aegon a cuckold in the eyes of the public, and he most certainly would have not tolerated that.

I cannot see Aegon the Unworthy having the grace to overlook such crimes, especially not if they were true. And that they were true would have been revealed eventually if Aemon or Naerys had been charged with this crime during the reign of his brother. Thus my conclusion is that if there was a historical basis for 'The evil Ser Morgil accusing Naerys of treason and the Dragonknight defends her honor' incident - and this incident would have been during the reign of the Unworthy since Aemon predeceased his elder brother - then everyone involved - the king, the queen, and the Dragonknight - knew that it was crap.

Thus the only (or at least the best) option is that these rumors - and subsequent songs - were political tools in the hands of the original supporters of Daemon Blackfyre. Daeron II was a very liberal king. He did not persecute people for speaking their mind, even if it was treason or nonsense (the Dunk & Egg stories reveal that the times are harsher under Aerys I when Bloodraven's no tolerance for traitors policy is fully in effect).

Once the story was out, and all the people who could refute the claims that Daeron II was 'falseborn' were dead (as I've said, Aemon predeceased Aegon, and although we don't know when Naerys died my guess is that she either predeceased her husband as well - she was always sickly - or that she did not live long into Daeron's reign), it was pretty much impossible to get rid of it again. But it's quite telling, I think, that the songs about Aemon and Naerys were not exactly popular or even sung publicly during the reign of Daeron I and Aerys I. Not even the 'all Blackfyre' wedding of Lord Butterwell dared to make fun of the father of Aerys I, nor did quotation of the pro-Blackfyre septon in the beginning of TMK - the one who is beheaded for treason - include an explicit explanation as to why Daemon II Blackfyre is supposed to be the true king.

Maester Aemon had no means to deduce whether his grandfather was Aegon's or Aemon's son. I very much doubt he ever dared to ask him about that, but even if he did, Daeron II himself could not know the truth, either. Egg may have been the first king to officially allow that songs about Aemon and Naerys could be sung publicly. During his reign Aemon and Naerys would have become somewhat distant historical figures, and whatever they may have done (or not) would not hurt the Targaryen claim to the Iron Throne all that much. Especially if the Blackfyres were nothing more than sellsword commanders by then.

To come to an end: I don't think that the fact that the songs of Aemon and Naerys are sung in the time of the main series is evidence that this was the case back during the times of Aegon the Unworthy, Daeron II, or his sons.

And I also believe that any stories about 'evil dragons', or dragons that are slain by knights, were not exactly popular or allowed to become popular while the Targaryens still had dragons. It does not necessarily need to be the case that such stories were legally banned. The very fact that the ruling dynasty rode dragons could have been reason enough to praise the dragons in song rather than to paint them as dangerous animals (even if the latter was actually the case).

[ShadowCat Rivers]

snip

I don't really disagree on the possibility that, by LF's plans, Harry could become a rare case of happily ignorant pawns. But what Harry gains or loses or risks is not a matter, because it won't be his choice nor will he know anything about it until the very end, if he ever does at all. His approval is required, yes, in that he's a lot more luckier than Sansa ever was, but his approval is about a girl named Alayne who, seemingly, will be all charming and pleasant and wanting him. He is not supposed to ever know of the player behind the scene, pulling the strings. Sansa is supposed to become the assistant puppeteer. {Edit: My point is, the important part will be how Sansa will feel about it, given that she is the one who vlaues being loved for herself, when she will have to fool somebody else into loving "Alayne" and believing that she loves him too, when she really doesn't and it's only about securing LF's power over the Vale.}

Bronze Yonn, I think, by arranging the tourney and knighting him himself, is working on his influence on the heir since the lords declarant failed to take the lord under their control. This is, IMO, because everyone thinks that the succession will happen sooner rather than later. Why bother with Harry if they thought that Sweetrobin will live long enough to have children of his own? IMO, Littlefinger too is preparing for the inevitability of Sweetrobin's death rather than actively seeking to kill him. Harry seems to attract attention from various fractions in the Vale while Sweetrobin seems to be written off one way or the other, and that leads me to believe that he will have an important relevance in Sansa's story. Not as a romantic interest (or at least not primarily) but as a plot factor. I think that, as such, he's not being built as one more in the long string of Sansa's oppressors/exploiters but rather, as someone that Sansa will be required to step over if she's to become a "player" à la LittleFinger. But anyway, we'll have to wait for the Winds to see where this plot is heading...

[brashcandy]

I don't really disagree on the possibility that, by LF's plans, Harry could become a rare case of happily ignorant pawns. But what Harry gains or loses or risks is not a matter, because it won't be his choice nor will he know anything about it until the very end, if he ever does at all. His approval is required, yes, in that he's a lot more luckier than Sansa ever was, but his approval is about a girl named Alayne who, seemingly, will be all charming and pleasant and wanting him. He is not supposed to ever know of the player behind the scene, pulling the strings. Sansa is supposed to become the assistant puppeteer. {Edit: My point is, the important part will be how Sansa will feel about it, given that she is the one who vlaues being loved for herself, when she will have to fool somebody else into believing that she loves him, when she really doesn't and it's only about securing LF's power over the Vale.}

His approval is about a bastard girl named Alayne who's coming with a huge dowry and then on her wedding day will be revealed as Sansa Stark! I can't imagine Harry nursing much resentment over that, especially when LF explains that he had to keep it all a secret for Sansa's safety. I agree that Sansa would not be comfortable making Harry believe she's really interested in him when she's not, but I think this is all relatively minor to the much bigger stakes in play, i.e. the well-being of her innocent cousin Sweetrobin.

Bronze Yonn, I think, by arranging the tourney and knighting him himself, is working on his influence on the heir since the lords declarant failed to take the lord under their control. This is, IMO, because everyone thinks that the succession will happen sooner rather than later. Why bother with Harry if they thought that Sweetrobin will live long enough to have children of his own? IMO, Littlefinger too is preparing for the inevitability of Sweetrobin's death rather than actively seeking to kill him. Harry seems to attract attention from various fractions in the Vale while Sweetrobin seems to be written off one way or the other, and that leads me to believe that he will have an important relevance in Sansa's story. Not as a romantic interest (or at least not primarily) but as a plot factor. I don't think that, as such, he's not being built as one more in the long string of Sansa's oppressors/exploiters but rather, as someone that Sansa will be required to step over if she's to become a "player" à la LittleFinger. But anyway, we'll have to wait for the Winds to see where this plot is heading...

Bronze Yohn wanted to get SR out of LF's clutches and give the boy a chance to receive proper attention and training at Runestone. The fact that SR's health is seen as so delicate and most people think it's only a matter of time before he expires is all the more reason why Sansa has to take an active hand in his preservation. It is Lysa who contributed to such a negative view of her son in the first place, and Sansa has been involved in helping the boy to be more courageous and lordly. Bronze Yohn seems to have been designated as Harry's mentor, preparing him for prominent duty in the Vale as his position requires.

Harry is a pawn in LF's game, yes, but SR is truly in danger. I don't know if he'll turn out to be an oppressor - or at least I don't think he'll have the opportunity, but his track record with women speaks to someone already accustomed to reaping the benefits of having some status, and LF's alleged intent to make him the Lord of the Eyrie and Sansa's husband doesn't bode for well Sansa's interests, even if she's involved in tricking him.

[Pod The Impaler]

Sansa is aware that things might have been different from Mya if Robert had acknowledged her, but it's a very practical appreciation of the situation, and that's in keeping with how she has approached these kinds of issues before. I could certainly see Sansa encouraging Harry to take responsibility for his natural children, but it's not enough by itself to prevent her from seeking a life with him if that's what she really wanted. The problem Lyanna had with Robert wasn't simply that he had a bastard child, but that it was only the beginning of what she rightly sensed was a reckless pattern of behaviour stemming from a complete lack of ability to be faithful. That she might not have been very attracted to Robert's "personality type" is also to be considered.

I think Mya's influence is meant to encourage Sansa's developing independence, which is necessary in breaking away from Littlefinger; and to give her a model (along with Lothor Brune) upon which to explore her feelings for Sandor Clegane.

Well, if Sansa actually wants to marry Harry, then there is really nothing to stop her from doing so.

However, what I mean is that she may feel just as Lyanna Stark did - that there is little to gain in marrying someone who seems unfaithful by nature. It is a more practical view than AGOT Sansa might have had, but Sansa by now is (hopefully) a bit wiser about men. Lyanna & Robert is also a tangible example, not merely something abstract, thanks to the presence of Mya Stone. Mya is a good person, and worthy of more than leading mules up and down a mountain pass, so her situation is quite sad. Her father was the king, and she knew him only enough to regret his later absence from his life.

Sansa of course knows Robert did not actually marry Lyanna in the end, but in considering what becomes of Harry's bastard kids, and seeing Mya, Sansa may come to think that she is the Lyanna of this situation. Sansa may ask what would have happenned with Lyanna's life, had she actually married Robert? Would she have been satisfied as a wife and mother, with a Robert that drank and whored until his life was a pile of wreckage ? After all, Sansa knew Robert, and it's clear that she considered him a less-than-admirable sort of man. Sansa being well aware of this example in the background makes me think she would have yet more reasons to ultimately reject the Harry gambit - unless of course Sansa's ethical standards have actually slipped to near-Littlefinger levels of conduct.

[Annara Snow]

1. There is the fact that romantic love is a very uncommon thing among true siblings. TPatQ showed us yet another Targaryen incest marriage (Aegon and Helaena) that was only a political marriage. There was no love between these two.

Sexual attraction is also a very uncommon thing about true siblings (i.e. those who grew up as siblings), but we know it did happen on some occasions at least; from history (Baelor the Blessed locked up his sisters so they wouldn't 'tempt' him) and the present (Viserys).

2. Daeron II is born when both when all the children of Viserys II are still very young (it was during the reign of Aegon III). It would make little sense to assume that Naerys had an affair with her brother back then, and not much later, when she really suffered from the hands of the Unworthy. If we assume that Naerys and Aemon had a love relationship beginning before the birth of Daeron II and continuing - perhaps with some breaks - throughout the reigns of their uncle, their two cousins, their father and their elder brother, we would have to stretch credibility pretty much. Any king - Aegon III, Daeron I, Baelor the Blessed (especially him!), and their father Viserys II (who served as Hand under Daeron I and Baelor I) - hearing about these rumors (or learning about these facts) would have put a stop to them. If Baelor the Blessed had learned about it he would most certainly have treated Naerys worse than his own sisters, nor could I see him marrying Daeron Falseborn to Princess Myriah Martell.

3. But let's assume for a moment that Aemon and Naerys had the skills to hide their affair throughout all these years (that alone would make them much more skilled at secrecy than Jaime and Cersei, and what we know about both historical figures strongly suggests that they had pretty much nothing in common with Cersei and Jaime). Judging the character of Aegon the Unworthy we'd have to assume then that this affair was never public knowledge throughout his entire reign. We know what he did to Terrence Toyne and his mistress after he learned that they had an affair. Making fun of/humiliating the queen and the king's brother (who also happens to be the Realm's finest knight) would have made King Aegon a cuckold in the eyes of the public, and he most certainly would have not tolerated that.

I cannot see Aegon the Unworthy having the grace to overlook such crimes, especially not if they were true. And that they were true would have been revealed eventually if Aemon or Naerys had been charged with this crime during the reign of his brother. Thus my conclusion is that if there was a historical basis for 'The evil Ser Morgil accusing Naerys of treason and the Dragonknight defends her honor' incident - and this incident would have been during the reign of the Unworthy since Aemon predeceased his elder brother - then everyone involved - the king, the queen, and the Dragonknight - knew that it was crap.

I'm not so convinced of that. There's a huge difference in status between Terrence Toyne and a mistress of Aegon's, and Aemon Targaryen and Naerys Targaryen. However Aegon may have treated his sister/wife, having her or Aemon executed may have been too much even for Aegon. Both because kinslaying is such a big stigma that even Targaryens don't seem exempt from it (Bloodraven was called an accursed kinslayer even though he killed his half-brother in battle, where you'd expect it to be allowed), and because being a Targaryen, especially a male one, comes with a great degree of power in itself. And Aemon was also a famous knight, so probably better at fighting than Aegon was. Let's say Aegon asked the Kingsguard or the Gold Cloaks to arrest Aemon, and he decided to resist arrest, as we would say; what does a Kingsguard or a Gold Cloak do? They're supposed to obey the king, yes; but they're also not supposed to strike or hurt a prince of royal blood (i.e. a Targaryen); we know that the punishment by law was having the offending body part cut off, and we know that the Kingsguard vows involved not just obeying and protecting the king, but also not hurting anyone of royal blood, and that the Kingsguard members at Dunk's trial of seven did not dare to strike at Baelor even during the trial itself. Maybe the king's order can overrule that? Or maybe it can't? Maybe the king loses the crown, and another Targ king decides to have your hand cut off? Maybe the king later says: "Yes, I did give you the order to arrest my brother. But it is still true that you struck my brother. Off with your hand!" What would the Kingsguard (or the Gold Cloaks, or anyone else) do? Arrest Aemon at any cost, to carry king's order? Or decide it is better to not take that risk, and use no physical force against Aemon? Decide to do as little as possible and let the Targs settle it between themselves? It seems to be pretty murky territory.

Add to this the fact that Aegon was already very unpopular. Besides, after the Dance, I'm sure that nobody wanted the Targaryens fighting each other again, least of all the Targaryens themselves. In short, while he had all the power to punish people like Terrence Toyne who, for a Targ, would be a nobody, I'm not sure that he would have been so bold to start accusing his family members of treason and trying to execute them, especially if they were more popular than himself.

Whether Naerys and Aemon were or were not in love, whether they had an affair when they were very young, and only then, or only later when she was married and a queen, or all the time, or never, we don't know; but there are more possibilities between the extremes of "they had an ongoing affair all those years" and "there was never anything romantic or sexual between them". And if they did have an affair, Daeron's parentage would be an open question - he could have still been Aegon's son. Or not.

It's also an open question whether Aegon had doubts that he could not confirm, and if his desire to legitimize his bastards had something to do with it; and if he gave the Blackfyre sword to Daemon just because Daemon was a fighter and Daeron was not, or because he liked Daemon better, or maybe because he was more certain of his bastards' paternity. It may not mean anything...or it may.

I also find it interesting that Daeron was so fond of his uncle Aemon* that he named after him the first male child in his family who was born after Daemon's rebellion was crushed; Aegon got the honor of having the next grandson named after him. Again: maybe it means nothing, but maybe it does. I certainly think that the fact that Maester Aemon, who knew his grandfather, didn't get the impression that these rumors were absolute crap in the opinions of his family, is interesting.

*He was definitely his uncle, as was Aegon, that much is certain. Whether he was more than that is the controversy.

And I also believe that any stories about 'evil dragons', or dragons that are slain by knights, were not exactly popular or allowed to become popular while the Targaryens still had dragons. It does not necessarily need to be the case that such stories were legally banned. The very fact that the ruling dynasty rode dragons could have been reason enough to praise the dragons in song rather than to paint them as dangerous animals (even if the latter was actually the case)

Not before the Dance, certainly. During the Dance, the dragons would probably be seen as evil or good depending on whose side you were on - unless you were one of the people in KL who hated all of them. But we know that Aegon III was not very fond of dragons, since he watched a dragon eat his mother as a boy, even though it was his uncle Aegon II who was the real culprit. He, at the very least, allowed the dragons to be killed and die out, and got the nickname Dragonbane. And we know that the maesters wanted the dragons gone, and would have wanted to paint them in bad light.

[brashcandy]

Well, if Sansa actually wants to marry Harry, then there is really nothing to stop her from doing so.

However, what I mean is that she may feel just as Lyanna Stark did - that there is little to gain in marrying someone who seems unfaithful by nature. It is a more practical view than AGOT Sansa might have had, but Sansa by now is (hopefully) a bit wiser about men. Lyanna & Robert is also a tangible example, not merely something abstract, thanks to the presence of Mya Stone. Mya is a good person, and worthy of more than leading mules up and down a mountain pass, so her situation is quite sad. Her father was the king, and she knew him only enough to regret his later absence from his life.

Sansa of course knows Robert did not actually marry Lyanna in the end, but in considering what becomes of Harry's bastard kids, and seeing Mya, Sansa may come to think that she is the Lyanna of this situation. Sansa may ask what would have happenned with Lyanna's life, had she actually married Robert? Would she have been satisfied as a wife and mother, with a Robert that drank and whored until his life was a pile of wreckage ? After all, Sansa knew Robert, and it's clear that she considered him a less-than-admirable sort of man. Sansa being well aware of this example in the background makes me think she would have yet more reasons to ultimately reject the Harry gambit - unless of course Sansa's ethical standards have actually slipped to near-Littlefinger levels of conduct.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that because Harry's bastard children may not factor into Sansa's decision in the way you envision that it means her "ethical standards have actually slipped to near-Littlefinger levels of conduct"?

As I said in my previous post, it's likely that Sansa would encourage Harry to take care of his children and contribute to their upkeep, but your idea of her being sympathetic to the plight of Jon and Mya and this being a basis of her refusal of Harry doesn't strike me as very credible. For starters, she knows that Jon had a decent life growing up in Winterfell being supported by her father. So Sansa imagining some similar tale of woe for Harry's children isn't going to be inspired by Jon's treatment as you claimed. With regard to Mya, it was not simply a case of Robert not acknowledging her, but a complete and utter abandonment after he became King:

“I remember a man throwing me in the air when I was very little. He stands as tall as the sky, and he throws me up so high it feels as though I’m flying. We’re both laughing, laughing so much that I can hardly catch a breath, and finally I laugh so hard I wet myself, but that only makes him laugh the louder. I was never afraid when he was throwing me. I knew that he would always be there to catch me.” She pushed her hair back. “Then one day he wasn’t.

Robert's treatment of Mya appears to be the exception, not the norm, when it comes to bastard children. Even Roose Bolton accepted that Ramsay was his son and supported him into adulthood. We know that Robert once thought of bringing Mya to court but this was quickly nixed by Cersei - someone whose ethical standards should actually be compared to LF's.

You seem to be arguing two things here, so let me clear that what I'm disputing is not the contention that Sansa would look unfavourably at Harry's behaviour on the whole, and see him in a similar light to how Lyanna viewed Robert as "faithless". What I'm calling into question is the point that Mya Stone's "fatherless" situation will factor into Sansa having a negative opinion of Harry because of what her friend suffered growing up without a father. Is Harry the man Sansa wants for herself at this point? No. But would her rejection of that union be based on fears that his bastard children wouldn't be treated properly? In my opinion, no.

It might help to look at how Sansa views Mya Stone, and her efforts to help the girl find love. She doesn't see Mya as some poor mule girl as you described. Based on her own "bastard brave" identification, it's clear that Sansa respects Mya and considers the girl to be quite courageous. She also thinks of her as pretty, and wants to pair her up with someone honest and loyal like Brune. It's through this desire that we get Sansa's first thoughts on Mya's bastardy:

Brune would be a good match for a bastard girl like Mya Stone, she thought. It might be different if her father had acknowledged her, but he never did. And Maddy says that she’s no maid either.

So rather than lamenting how Mya's bastardy has been detrimental to her chances in making a match with some noble family, Sansa accepts it as a simple fact - along with Mya not being a virgin - and concentrates instead on matchmaking the girl with Brune. As Sansa sees it, being a bastard doesn't have to prevent Mya from having a good life with a man who loves her.

Whereas readers may compare to Sansa/Harry to Lyanna/Robert, Sansa is comparing herself to Mya. She's not seeing Mya the abandoned child, but Mya the woman:

“Do you think Ser Lothor likes her as she is, in mail and leather?” she asked the older girl, who seemed so worldly-wise. “Or does he dream of her draped in silks and velvets?”

The fact that LF is impressing on Sansa the need to be his daughter in her heart, and to try to encourage her to completely support his plans, make Mya's words extremely relevant for Sansa's situation with her own father figure:

"...Men come and go. They lie, or die, or leave you. A mountain is not a man, though, and a stone is a mountain’s daughter. I trust my father, and I trust my mules. I won’t fall.” She put her hand on a jagged spur of rock, and got to her feet.

To conclude, the person that Mya Stone will be instrumental in helping Sansa to reject is Littlefinger, based on Mya's assertion of authority that is independent of patriarchal dependence and interference.

[Milady of York]

Snip.

All right, let’s break the issue down, and please excuse any oversimplification I might incur in for the sake of clarity:

• Your argument was that the pool has been named after Jonquil and her companions, thus it was unlikely that the story of Jonquil originated in the youth of anyone still alive in 130 AC, and that the story is just a story not based on in-universe “real events.”

Then you said that it was unlikely that it was already named Maidenpool before a really prominent maiden ended up bathing there.

Then you said that it was unlikely that there was a real dragon in the story, much less if it was Balerion, as the evens in The Hedge Knight and the fact that Egg liked the story precluded that from being true, and that stories with dragons were popularised only after the dragons died.

Then you said that the tower in castle Mooton could’ve been named after any random maiden that was also called Jonquil.

And now you’re saying that Aemon/Naerys had nothing in common with Jaime/Cersei as the rumours were political weapons for the Blackfyre faction.

From such an arrangement of points, I understand that the core of your argument is that since the story itself has no in-universe “historicity,” e.g. that it’s not based on “real facts,” and is just invention as neither Florian nor Jonquil existed; in other words: it’s just fairy tales, and because of that, they’ve not got any relevance at all.

And here’s where you keep missing the point repeatedly, so let me clarify again what I am trying to get at: the historicity of Florian and Jonquil, that is, whether they really existed and were historical figures and whether there was a real dragon (or a real giant for that matter) is merely a curiosity, not the reason why this story is relevant. There are very valid reasons to believe they did exist in-universe, as there are also valid reasons to believe they didn’t exist, so the discussion is purely academic in the end, however interesting it may be to speculate, as objectively there’s not enough data to tip the scales towards one conclusive statement in favour or against the historicity of the characters in the songs.

However, you seem to be convinced that since the story is invented and neither Florian, nor Jonquil, nor the dragon (and presumably neither the giant) were “real,” that means we can confidently dismiss the relevance of this song as “just a story.” And that, in my opinion, is a mistake, as it requires of us to overlook how stories and songs play out in Sansa’s arc in particular and in the books in general. I've already pointed out that whether the stories are real or false isn't really the important stuff in this discussion, because the relevant point and the foundation of my case is that these stories are repeating themselves in the main series in the storylines of specific characters, a narrative technique Martin uses deliberately and to great effect as in these books the parallels and inversions and repetition of storylines and motifs/themes are common, and contribute not only to a better understanding of a character, and shed light on obscure and vague aspects contained in their chapters, but also enable us to make decent, text-based guesses as to where their plotlines might be headed.

In Sansa’s arc, I mentioned Florian and Jonquil and Aemon/Naerys as prime examples of this technique. And you first cited the lack of “real facts” in the former to dismiss it as irrelevant, and then you went for Aemon/Naerys being a fabrication to dispute the parallel with Jaime/Cersei, bypassing the fact that no one claimed that the parallelism was exact, therefore it boils down to a very literal interpretation that since there’s no common ground between these two couples personality-wise, that negates the existence of the thematic parallel, or its relevance. On that, you’re partially correct: Aemon/Naerys could very well have been a slander, and I tend to agree that it was, as I’ve mentioned in my previous post, and it’s true that Jaime is no Dragonknight and Cersei is the opposite of Naerys, and neither is Sandor anything like Florian (he’d be the first one to laugh in our faces at the mere idea) and Sansa is likely nothing like Jonquil either, and Bael the Bard is likely also a self-aggrandising fabrication, but the plot/theme contained in the songs is being repeated in their arcs regardless of being “true” or “false” history-wise, these characters are “reliving” the stories with twists and subversions deftly applied by GRRM, which is what makes them so relevant for any decent character analysis, especially for someone like Sansa. So, in conclusion, you may believe all is invented, which is possible, but if you believe that is enough to negate the narrative value of these stories and their significance in the plotlines into which they are intricately interwoven, then it would be good to take into account that their value doesn’t diminish because of their veracity or lack thereof, as they don’t function like stories and legends in the real world where they make poor history, but are creations of an author who is deliberately drafting these parallels for literary purposes.

[Pod The Impaler]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that because Harry's bastard children may not factor into Sansa's decision in the way you envision that it means her "ethical standards have actually slipped to near-Littlefinger levels of conduct"?

No, what I'm suggesting is that Sansa would not go into any marriage with Harry with primarily false intentions, so that if she did consider that marriage, she would want a faithful husband. She would not likely accept entering the situation if she knew Harry would be constantly unfaithful.

However, if she was accepting it for the sake of power, if she was accepting Littlefinger's role of essentially manipulating Harry for his claim, then this would be an ethical red flag, perhaps indicating that Littlefinger has succeeded in converting her into a more unethical game player.

[Lord Varys]

Milady,

little time, so only a few words:

I never said (or tried to undermine) the fact that the songs are important for Sansa's arc. Nor am I sure that these stories are complete inventions. My point was merely that

1. I don't believe a dragon played a role in the story of Jonquil and Florian if we assume that they actually existed in-universe. I'm also not sure if they have existed or whether they are only invented. But it's clear that they are somehow connected to Maidenpool.

2. I don't believe that Naerys and Aemon had an affair (but that was no exactly important for the discussion here).

I do see that Aemon and Naerys resemble Jaime and Cersei to a degree. But the story has reached a point where these are only superfluous similarities. Aemon and Naerys always had a very close relationship whereas Jaime and Cersei have started to grow apart since ASoS. It may be that Aemon and Jaime were alike in the way that they knew only one woman (their sister - if we assume that Naerys and Aemon had a romantic relationship), but Cersei does not share anything with Naerys besides the fact that they were both queens.

More later on the Aegon/Aemon thing.

[brashcandy]

No, what I'm suggesting is that Sansa would not go into any marriage with Harry with primarily false intentions, so that if she did consider that marriage, she would want a faithful husband. She would not likely accept entering the situation if she knew Harry would be constantly unfaithful.

However, if she was accepting it for the sake of power, if she was accepting Littlefinger's role of essentially manipulating Harry for his claim, then this would be an ethical red flag, perhaps indicating that Littlefinger has succeeded in converting her into a more unethical game player.

What Littlefinger wants is for Sansa to be complicit in her own exploitation, and the child at risk here is Sweetrobin, not Harry's bastards. The issue of Harry's faithfulness isn't as relevant for Sansa as it was for her aunt Lyanna, because any acceptance of the marriage would be contributing to SR's death in LF's planned scheme. Hence, your fearing for her ethical standards because of Harry's manipulation is a bit misplaced.

[brashcandy]

Could it be likely that, assuming the Elder Brother is posing in the Vale, that he would reveal himself to Sansa/Alayne? And we all know that Sansa thinks of the UnKiss and Sandor so much in her chapters; she's constantly comparing other men to him. Would she be willing to be with him, knowing how he protected her and would genuinely love her for herself and not for her claim to Winterfell? We shall see.

I really do think that the EB showing up in the Vale has to result in tangible benefits for Sansa, and a reunion with Sandor would certainly count as such :) As for their long term potential, while it's obvious that Martin has designed it to be a love match, it doesn't mean it's a "love conquers all" relationship. Milady of York once shared some interesting thoughts with me on how Sandor understood the realities of Westerosi marriages relating to Sansa's high birth and what he might have been planning to do about that. Perhaps if I finally deliver on that promise of chocolate, she might be willing to explore those points again :wideeyed:

[Disputatious]

I suspect, for what 'tis worth, that Sansa will go to the Isle of Silence, taken there by Brienne who will think this a safe place for Sansa. Just how this will play out once the two of them discover that Sandor is there I do not wish to forecast, but it offers interesting possibilities. Consider the argument that might develop between Brienne and Sandor about honor and knighthood---one that will be hampered, to be sure, by Sandor's vow of silence. Suppose the discussion has to be indirect via the Elder Brother. :)