Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Milady of York

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XXI

Recommended Posts

If Ser Morgarth is actually the Elder Brother, then the mountain has come to Mohammed, so to speak. The Elder Brother is known to be a healer; he might be able to help Sweetrobin as well as Sansa.

There is a possibility that we could see him utilizing that talent, although right now his cover has to be grounded in being a mercenary knight. He is called Ser Morgarth the Merry though, so it may be a clue that like Ser Dontos, he's going to play a jovial, unassuming type of character.

The EB's presence in the Vale also aligns nicely with the motif of non/ex-knights being re-inspired through their association with Sansa and actively involved in helping her somehow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't believe Sandor is travelling with the EB, for the simple fact that when we last saw him he hasn't fully recovered and still has the lurching gait that would draw attention to him, if the ridiculously tall monk who never removes his hood didn't do the trick And the roads are still dangerous. Perhaps the EB is on a strict fact finding mission, and there's the likelihood that it has nothing to do with Sansa, although it's hard to imagine that she won't be involved now.

I've considered if Sandor's limping would be a reason for him to not leave the monastery with the Elder Brother as well. His limp means that he can't fight with a sword as proficiently as usual, but the work he's doing as a gravedigger is arduous enough in that terrain, suggesting that he's recovered enough to perform some demanding physical activities, therefore is in an acceptable shape for travelling, more so if it's by boat or by horse, that don't require him to walk as much and therefore wouldn’t burden the leg at all. He can even fight on horseback right now, limp and all, with a sword, a mace, a lance, a hammer, a morningstar, an axe, etc. Also, approximately one month has passed since the arrival of Brienne to the Quiet Isle until the appearance of the three knights at the Gates, time enough for his limping to have improved, if not reasonably healed (if GRRM doesn't decide the contrary). So, taking that into account, yes, from a purely physical standpoint, he would've been fit to have gone.

There's the question of whether the Elder Brother would’ve wanted to bring him on this trip, and if so the difficulty of concealing his six feet eight inches crowned with a scarred face is not necessarily something that rules out Sandor accompanying the Elder Brother. He's good at disguise, as he proved with Arya in front of someone who knew him, so he could pass unnoticed by others as well. I mentioned the possibility that the limping could've improved, yet in case it didn’t, even so people see what they want to see and this isn't a characteristic that any would associate with the Hound. Considering the reputation he's gotten recently due to Saltpans, the robes of a monk would be the last thing under which they'd look for the Hound, more so if he is accompanied by someone like the Elder Brother. So, if both went to the Vale through the Gulltown route, it'd have been as monks, and from then to the Gates of the Moon as men-at-arms looking for a job.

I wondered if he could have expressed to the Elder Brother a desire to go search for Sansa after he recovered. He knows she's alive and escaped, and is hiding somewhere. He didn't have time to process the news he heard at the Crossroads Inn and decide what to do with regard to that, because he was wounded and "died" soon after; but his last words were so full of regret about failing to help and protect Sansa... So, could it be that once he came back to his senses at the Quiet Isle after passing out from fever, after he was told by the Elder Brother what his prognosis was, he voiced a wish to go search for the little bird and protect her as the new and nobler purpose of his life? And if the Elder Brother more or less have agreed, or at the very least understood his rationale, then he’d have allowed him to go with him on this trip to the Vale even if the purpose on his part wasn’t related to Sansa. It’d have been on Sandor’s part. Remember where he and Arya were going to when he was wounded: to the Vale by boat from Saltpans. When she left him to die, Arya was heading towards Saltpans still, and Sandor, though feverish, would've guessed her destination, and he has no reason to believe she'd go to Essos. Arya might not be a good motivation for him to go to the Vale, but she's the little bird's sister and if he thinks Arya could've gone to the Vale, to her aunt, then Sansa could have too, since she has nowhere else to go. Even the Mad Mouse seems to have suspicions that Sansa could've gone to the Vale, where she has relatives, so why would Sandor not think the same?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remember where he and Arya were going to when he was wounded: to the Vale by boat from Saltpans. When she left him to die, Arya was heading towards Saltpans still, and Sandor, though feverish, would've guessed her destination, and he has no reason to believe she'd go to Essos. Arya might not be a good motivation for him to go to the Vale, but she's the little bird's sister and if he thinks Arya could've gone to the Vale, to her aunt, then Sansa could have too, since she has nowhere else to go. Even the Mad Mouse seems to have suspicions that Sansa could've gone to the Vale, where she has relatives, so why would Sandor not think the same?

:wideeyed: Good points, and I guess it comes down to whether or not Martin makes it happen. If the EB is in Vale with the expectation that Sansa could be hiding there, then taking Sandor along makes sense, especially as he might need to gain her trust quickly, and reuniting them would practically ensure it. If Sandor did make the journey, it might be safer for him to remain in Gulltown, whilst the EB assesses what is happening at the Gates. Martin has also said that TWOW kicks off a new storyline for Sansa, so the same old script with LF cannot last very long from that perspective.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have always loved this thread and I also really like the crackpot theory regarding Ser Morgath the Merry being EB.



I have a few other clues to add to the mix but be aware it might have a spoiler regarding Dunk and Egg stories




This has to do with Ser Shadrack being the mad mouse with the white and red eyes..which surely should make us think of BloodRaven and Bran being well aware that Sansa is in the Vale. I suspect that the "mad mouse" might be a glamoured BR.



Here is the crackpot version in the Dunk and Egg story BR did glamour a fellow from House Plum to help protect egg. Is it possible that he is once again doing something similar with Ser Shadrack?



Another interesting set of clues regarding Little Fingers long term motives that I discovered a while ago. These clues are found in the conversation Tyrion has with LF back in Clash.


Martin gives us a description of Petyr Balish clothing.



Lord Petyr was seated on his window seat, languid and elegant in a plush plum colored doublet and a yellow satin cape.



Pod is staring at Lord Petyrs boots, lovely things of red-dyed leather ornamented with black scrollwork.



Tyrion questions Lord Petyr or actually Martin wants us to clue in on what Petyr is wearing.



"You look very elegant today, my lord."


"Is the doublet new?"


"It is. You're most observant."



"Plum and yellow. Are those the colors of your House?" ( Once again Martin wants us to notice the colors and he links those colors to a house..he wants us the reader to find out whose colors Petyr is wearing.)



"No. But a man gets bored wearing the same colors day in and day out, or so I've found."



LF is now wearing House Plum colors which made me think of Brown Ben Plum in Meeren with Dany Targ. This I believe is when LF actually knows Dany has hatched dragons and he has already started to lay plans to align himself to her Targaryen cause. I find it interesting that he sent a letter asking Cersei for old tapestries of Roberts. All along I have suspected its the old Targ tapestries that he wants so he can hang them to show loyalty to Dany.



What I find ironic is that BR glamored a Plum once to protect a targ and in this case I think Ser Shadrack might be sent to protect Sansa via BR and Bran. LF could be in for a big surprise in more ways than one. He has hired three knights but I think two of them have their own agenda.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking at everything so far it seems there are multiple reasons that the Elder Brother could be motivated to pick up the sword and leave the Quiet Isle despite his vow to never kill again.

The High Septon reforming the Swords and Stars of the Faith Militant is probably a sufficient motivation for him to have a change of heart without extenuating circumstances. On top of this we have his entire list of reasons to Brienne for why peace will be restored turned false by a combination the Ironborn invasion and Cersei and Margaery's imprisonments combined with his refusal to forgive Ser Cox as Septon Meribald does. This points to circumstances like the Saltpans becoming more common and not less increasing the likelihood that such a man would not ignore the resurrection of the Faith Militant.

As to why he might go to the Vale:

Bran Vras presented such a comprehensive and insightful treatment of rubies and the Quiet Isle that I feel bad distilling it down to one aspect--- but Brienne bringing the seventh ruby to the Quiet Isle in a sword named Oathkeeper has lots of potential. Brienne's emotional breakdown at his suggestion that she go home has to strike a nerve with his sitting on his Isle "doing nothing" when she speaks of men hunting Sansa and not being able to abandon the girl. However capable a warrior Brienne may be she is still a woman and a woman acting as a protector while a former knight sits idle is going to play psychological warfare on a man's ego. Tyrion intentionally used this tactic in his charge at the Blackwater playing on his "halfman" status and it isn't inconceivable that Brienne did the same unintentionally here.

Even if the Elder Brother does not see Brienne's quest as a sign embodied in the seventh ruby's arrival she still shows up seeking to protect Sansa and hunting the Hound. It seems Sandor has been "confessing" to this Elder Brother and given his last words to Arya we can assume he conveyed similar things to the Elder Brother. Two people washing up on his Quiet Island focused on the same girl is the type of thing religious people tend to view as a sign. Pragmatically, a good number of broken men are "wolves" and Sansa is the perceived heir to Winterfell and he could reasonably see her as the best option for dealing with the northern broken men. The Vale is also the only area untouched by the war and thus a reasonable place for him to look for help in reestablishing law and order given that all those he hoped would do so have been pulled back by the tides of war.

So even without an explicit detailed conspiracy to weave all the clues together there are some relatively mundane assumptions that could place the Elder Brother in the Vale as a knight even if his only agenda was feeling out the Lord Protector or a Vale lord at court for a couple dozen men to protect the bordering Riverlands from another Saltpans. I still find the Sansa/agenda angle more intriguing but it doesn't seem a prerequisite for the matching description to be him.

If it is him the idea that Sandor accompanied him or would later follow him is far from a stretch.

Very insightful post, Ragnorak. I liked your parallels between Cersei and Littlefinger especially. There’s one more between these two:

Cersei, thinking of the failed betrothal to Rhaegar and how Princess Rhaenys could’ve been her daughter:

Margaery’s clumsy attempts at seduction were so obvious as to be laughable. Tommen is too young for kisses, so she gives him kittens. Cersei rather wished they were not black, though. Black cats brought ill luck, as Rhaegar’s little girl had discovered in this very castle. She would have been my daughter, if the Mad King had not played his cruel jape on Father. It had to have been the madness that led Aerys to refuse Lord Tywin’s daughter and take his son instead, whilst marrying his own son to a feeble Dornish princess with black eyes and a flat chest.

The memory of the rejection still rankled, even after all these years.

That mockingbird, speaking of the woman he never had and of how Sansa could’ve been his daughter:

"But she gave me something finer, a gift a woman can give but once. How could I turn my back upon her daughter? In a better world, you might have been mine, not Eddard Stark’s. My loyal loving daughter..."

So, we have: three knights that are hidden daggers, a similar plan to hide Tommen and Sansa by disguising the tell-tale hair colour, and now the delusions they both have about a past one-sided love and nostalgia over possibilities that only existed in their heads.

<snip>

I think this is even a better parallel than the other two. If memory serves they are the only such explicit surrogate child delusions. Mormont gives Jon Longclaw which is a clear foster father gesture and there are instances where someone like Cat will witness something and think of her own children but despite all the could have been marriages I don't think we have any other such delusional adoptions of the mind. Cersei attributes Jaime's Kingsguard acceptance to a madness of Aerys when we know from Jaime that this was purely the result of her own scheming. Littlefinger is delusional about sleeping with Cat but I wonder if there isn't a better parallel to Cersei's delusion buried somewhere. He certainly bears culpability in his exile from Riverrun which seems a sore point based on his Paramount of the Riverlands drooling at Tyrion's offer. Maybe there's an angle to view Sweetrobin as his son that makes a better comparison?

If there is more to the Littlefinger/Cersei parallels that adds a level of interest to the Elder Brother showing up in the Vale. Cersei is experiencing a downfall as a result of her own scheming (which sounds like LF's eventual end state) but also one strongly intertwined with the Faith. Littlefinger has his home on that curious spot the Faith first landed in Westeros and Sansa has a great deal of religious symbolism surrounding her. The Elder Brother as a force in LF's downfall obviously adds to any such intentional role of religion surrounding their own self destructions. Aside from the immediate Sansa angles I find Martin intentionally doing Littlefinger/Cersei parallels to have fascinating implications.

Lady Arya's Song, in the Tyrion reread I remember that passage with LF and House colors and it was one of the most glaringly obvious clues that I've never seen (or thought of) a remotely satisfactory explanation for. Those are some very astute observations and the only good connections I've seen made for that passage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking at everything so far it seems there are multiple reasons that the Elder Brother could be motivated to pick up the sword and leave the Quiet Isle despite his vow to never kill again.

The High Septon reforming the Swords and Stars of the Faith Militant is probably a sufficient motivation for him to have a change of heart without extenuating circumstances. On top of this we have his entire list of reasons to Brienne for why peace will be restored turned false by a combination the Ironborn invasion and Cersei and Margaery's imprisonments combined with his refusal to forgive Ser Cox as Septon Meribald does. This points to circumstances like the Saltpans becoming more common and not less increasing the likelihood that such a man would not ignore the resurrection of the Faith Militant.

As to why he might go to the Vale:

Bran Vras presented such a comprehensive and insightful treatment of rubies and the Quiet Isle that I feel bad distilling it down to one aspect--- but Brienne bringing the seventh ruby to the Quiet Isle in a sword named Oathkeeper has lots of potential. Brienne's emotional breakdown at his suggestion that she go home has to strike a nerve with his sitting on his Isle "doing nothing" when she speaks of men hunting Sansa and not being able to abandon the girl. However capable a warrior Brienne may be she is still a woman and a woman acting as a protector while a former knight sits idle is going to play psychological warfare on a man's ego. Tyrion intentionally used this tactic in his charge at the Blackwater playing on his "halfman" status and it isn't inconceivable that Brienne did the same unintentionally here.

Even if the Elder Brother does not see Brienne's quest as a sign embodied in the seventh ruby's arrival she still shows up seeking to protect Sansa and hunting the Hound. It seems Sandor has been "confessing" to this Elder Brother and given his last words to Arya we can assume he conveyed similar things to the Elder Brother. Two people washing up on his Quiet Island focused on the same girl is the type of thing religious people tend to view as a sign. Pragmatically, a good number of broken men are "wolves" and Sansa is the perceived heir to Winterfell and he could reasonably see her as the best option for dealing with the northern broken men. The Vale is also the only area untouched by the war and thus a reasonable place for him to look for help in reestablishing law and order given that all those he hoped would do so have been pulled back by the tides of war.

So even without an explicit detailed conspiracy to weave all the clues together there are some relatively mundane assumptions that could place the Elder Brother in the Vale as a knight even if his only agenda was feeling out the Lord Protector or a Vale lord at court for a couple dozen men to protect the bordering Riverlands from another Saltpans. I still find the Sansa/agenda angle more intriguing but it doesn't seem a prerequisite for the matching description to be him.

If it is him the idea that Sandor accompanied him or would later follow him is far from a stretch.

I think this is even a better parallel than the other two. If memory serves they are the only such explicit surrogate child delusions. Mormont gives Jon Longclaw which is a clear foster father gesture and there are instances where someone like Cat will witness something and think of her own children but despite all the could have been marriages I don't think we have any other such delusional adoptions of the mind. Cersei attributes Jaime's Kingsguard acceptance to a madness of Aerys when we know from Jaime that this was purely the result of her own scheming. Littlefinger is delusional about sleeping with Cat but I wonder if there isn't a better parallel to Cersei's delusion buried somewhere. He certainly bears culpability in his exile from Riverrun which seems a sore point based on his Paramount of the Riverlands drooling at Tyrion's offer. Maybe there's an angle to view Sweetrobin as his son that makes a better comparison?

If there is more to the Littlefinger/Cersei parallels that adds a level of interest to the Elder Brother showing up in the Vale. Cersei is experiencing a downfall as a result of her own scheming (which sounds like LF's eventual end state) but also one strongly intertwined with the Faith. Littlefinger has his home on that curious spot the Faith first landed in Westeros and Sansa has a great deal of religious symbolism surrounding her. The Elder Brother as a force in LF's downfall obviously adds to any such intentional role of religion surrounding their own self destructions. Aside from the immediate Sansa angles I find Martin intentionally doing Littlefinger/Cersei parallels to have fascinating implications.

Lady Arya's Song, in the Tyrion reread I remember that passage with LF and House colors and it was one of the most glaringly obvious clues that I've never seen (or thought of) a remotely satisfactory explanation for. Those are some very astute observations and the only good connections I've seen made for that passage.

Always love your analysis, :bowdown: and I agree that I like the idea of Sansa giving so many a reason live and rise again. It's almost a parallel to Aegon and his Golden Company.

To your point about the Vale, Lady Gwynhyfvar makes a very good case on why the Vale could very well rise, not only for Sansa, but for the Starks as a whole.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/98676-royces-starks-and-waynwoods-corbrays-and-templetons-too/?view=getnewpost

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Bloody Cloak: A Crackpot



As it’s often been discussed in the Pawn to Player threads, the cloak is highly significant as a symbol of protection and comfort in Sansa’s arc, but not just any cloak as not all of those she’s gotten have borne the same significance as one cloak in particular: the white one of the members of the royal guard belonging to the Hound, which is missing and unaccounted for after that brief line in ASOS Sansa I, in which she reveals she “had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks.”



Or is it? With the participation of co-conspirator Milady of York, I’d like to present here my favorite little crackpot theory about what happened to Sandor’s discarded bloody Kingsguard cloak, inspired by earlier work for this thread.



Let’s start enumerating Sandor Clegane’s cloaks: apart from the Kingsguard one, only two other cloaks belonging to him are noted in the books. In AGOT, we find him associated with a bloody cloak for the first time:



There was something slung over the back of his destrier, a heavy shape wrapped in a bloody cloak. “No sign of your daughter, Hand,” the Hound rasped down, “but the day was not wholly wasted. We got her little pet.”


AGOT, Ch.16



It’s to be noted that the colour of this cloak isn’t mentioned at all, though we can speculate that it could’ve been crimson, for two reasons: Sandor is a Lannister man whose liege lady is Cersei, and the Lannister guards and men-at-arms wear crimson cloaks as a sort of uniform, and also because his presenting the cut down body of Mycah to Lord Eddard is reminiscent of Tywin presenting the bodies of the Targaryen babies murdered by Gregor to Robert in a bloodied crimson cloak.



Then, at the Hand’s Tourney, Sandor wears an olive-green cloak when he saves Ser Loras from his monstrous brother:



Sandor Clegane was the first rider to appear. He wore an olive- green cloak over his soot-grey armor. That, and his hound’s-head helm, were his only concession to ornament


AGOT, Ch. 30



This is the only time the colour of Sandor’s cloak is noted, other than the Kingsguard white, and in contrast to this and the previous cloaks which are like uniforms, this one is his own personal garment.



When he joined Joffrey’s garde de corps, he would give Sansa his white cloak when she was beaten and stripped in public, which is the first demonstration on Sansa’s part that she finds his cloak comforting, and although the fate of the first cloak isn’t known either, this isn’t the one that interests us and whose whereabouts we aim to reveal in this crackpot but a later one.



In ACOK, we are familiar with the scene where Sandor visits Sansa’s chambers after he breaks during the fiery Battle of Blackwater. When he has taken his song he departs, leaving his discarded cloak behind, for Sansa to pick it up:



She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire […] She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering.


ACOK, Ch. 62



In ASOS, as Sansa flees King’s Landing, she dons a deep green cloak with a large hood in the castle godswood to cover the brightness of the pearls on the bodice of her brown dress.



Dress warmly, Ser Dontos had told her, and dress dark. She had no blacks, so she chose a dress of thick brown wool. The bodice was decorated with freshwater pearls, though. The cloak will cover them. The cloak was deep green, with a large hood.


ASOS, Ch.61



Interestingly, Sansa has a cloak in dark colours, a grey cloak, which may have served quite well to cover her in this occasion:



Sansa threw a plain grey cloak over her shoulders and picked up the knife she used to cut her meat. If it is some trap, better that I die than let them hurt me more, she told herself. She hid the blade under her cloak


ACOK, Ch.18



But instead of donning that one, she chose a green cloak. And the reason behind this is that it’s the Kingsguard cloak. We believe Sansa has dyed Sandor’s white cloak green to cover the blood stains. We know she has used this tactic to cover “blood” stains in the past; in AGOT we read that Arya hurled a blood orange at her sister in a fit of anger and ruined her lovely new ivory silk gown:



. . . Arya flung the orange across the table. It caught her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish and plopped down into her lap […] The blood orange had left a blotchy red stain on the silk.


AGOT, Ch. 44



And when next we see that gown, Sansa has come up with the solution to dye it black; ostensibly as a symbol of royal mourning, but in reality to cover the stains left by the blood orange, and she wears it when she goes before the court to plead for her father:



Her gown was the ivory silk that the queen had given her, the one Arya had ruined, but she'd had them dye it black and you couldn't see the stain at all.


AGOT, Ch.57



The answer to the question “why green?” is twofold. First, and on a practical level, bloodstains that have failed to wash out of white fabric can often have a greenish cast, especially when the fabric are wool and silk, in which case the removal of bloodstains is even harder than for other fabrics, and both Sansa’s dress and Sandor’s cloaks are tailored precisely from these materials. Second, Sandor wearing the green cloak at the Tourney occurred the morning after their first significant interaction, so Sansa would have reason to remember his attire that day. Also, Sandor’s usual attire when he wasn’t armoured was a brown jerkin under his Kingsguard cloak, which wasn’t lost on Sansa either:



The white cloak of the Kingsguard was draped over his broad shoulders and fastened with a jeweled brooch, the snowy cloth looking somehow unnatural against his brown rough-spun tunic and studded leather jerkin. “Lady Sansa,” the Hound announced curtly when he saw her.



So the brown dress under the remade Kingsguard cloak is a perfect mirror of Sandor’s garb. The fact that she uses the green cloak to shield herself is so symbolically perfect that the conclusion almost writes itself.



On the matter of the hood, we don’t know for certain that Sandor’s cloak had a hood or not, but it’s likely that it didn’t since ceremonial cloaks were of the “cape” type and generally didn’t have hoods. We would suggest that if it did not, although Sandor most likely ripped a strip from the bottom of it to use as a bandage ("Sansa heard cloth ripping…"), we should remember that he stands well over a foot taller than Sansa, so it was a large piece of cloth and it’d be easy for a young lady known to be clever with her needle to cut a cloak down and fashion a hood from the pieces.



As closing thoughts, it’s noteworthy that after Sansa reveals that the cloak has been hidden away under her summer silks, she doesn’t think of it again until this passage:



As the boy’s lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak


AFFC, Ch.41



This can indicate that she has the cloak still, since she doesn’t mention what became of it nor gives any indication that it is lost to her. Since we know that she only took one cloak with her as she fled King’s Landing, we shall now say with confidence, quod erat demonstrandum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Bloody Cloak: A Crackpot

As it’s often been discussed in the Pawn to Player threads, the cloak is highly significant as a symbol of protection and comfort in Sansa’s arc, but not just any cloak as not all of those she’s gotten have borne the same significance as one cloak in particular: the white one of the members of the royal guard belonging to the Hound, which is missing and unaccounted for after that brief line in ASOS Sansa I, in which she reveals she “had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks.”

Or is it? With the participation of co-conspirator Milady of York, I’d like to present here my favorite little crackpot theory about what happened to Sandor’s discarded bloody Kingsguard cloak, inspired by earlier work for this thread.

Let’s start enumerating Sandor Clegane’s cloaks: apart from the Kingsguard one, only two other cloaks belonging to him are noted in the books. In AGOT, we find him associated with a bloody cloak for the first time:

There was something slung over the back of his destrier, a heavy shape wrapped in a bloody cloak. “No sign of your daughter, Hand,” the Hound rasped down, “but the day was not wholly wasted. We got her little pet.”

AGOT, Ch.16

It’s to be noted that the colour of this cloak isn’t mentioned at all, though we can speculate that it could’ve been crimson, for two reasons: Sandor is a Lannister man whose liege lady is Cersei, and the Lannister guards and men-at-arms wear crimson cloaks as a sort of uniform, and also because his presenting the cut down body of Mycah to Lord Eddard is reminiscent of Tywin presenting the bodies of the Targaryen babies murdered by Gregor to Robert in a bloodied crimson cloak.

Then, at the Hand’s Tourney, Sandor wears an olive-green cloak when he saves Ser Loras from his monstrous brother:

Sandor Clegane was the first rider to appear. He wore an olive- green cloak over his soot-grey armor. That, and his hound’s-head helm, were his only concession to ornament

AGOT, Ch. 30

This is the only time the colour of Sandor’s cloak is noted, other than the Kingsguard white, and in contrast to this and the previous cloaks which are like uniforms, this one is his own personal garment.

When he joined Joffrey’s garde de corps, he would give Sansa his white cloak when she was beaten and stripped in public, which is the first demonstration on Sansa’s part that she finds his cloak comforting, and although the fate of the first cloak isn’t known either, this isn’t the one that interests us and whose whereabouts we aim to reveal in this crackpot but a later one.

In ACOK, we are familiar with the scene where Sandor visits Sansa’s chambers after he breaks during the fiery Battle of Blackwater. When he has taken his song he departs, leaving his discarded cloak behind, for Sansa to pick it up:

She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire […] She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering.

ACOK, Ch. 62

In ASOS, as Sansa flees King’s Landing, she dons a deep green cloak with a large hood in the castle godswood to cover the brightness of the pearls on the bodice of her brown dress.

Dress warmly, Ser Dontos had told her, and dress dark. She had no blacks, so she chose a dress of thick brown wool. The bodice was decorated with freshwater pearls, though. The cloak will cover them. The cloak was deep green, with a large hood.

ASOS, Ch.61

Interestingly, Sansa has a cloak in dark colours, a grey cloak, which may have served quite well to cover her in this occasion:

Sansa threw a plain grey cloak over her shoulders and picked up the knife she used to cut her meat. If it is some trap, better that I die than let them hurt me more, she told herself. She hid the blade under her cloak

ACOK, Ch.18

But instead of donning that one, she chose a green cloak. And the reason behind this is that it’s the Kingsguard cloak. We believe Sansa has dyed Sandor’s white cloak green to cover the blood stains. We know she has used this tactic to cover “blood” stains in the past; in AGOT we read that Arya hurled a blood orange at her sister in a fit of anger and ruined her lovely new ivory silk gown:

. . . Arya flung the orange across the table. It caught her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish and plopped down into her lap […] The blood orange had left a blotchy red stain on the silk.

AGOT, Ch. 44

And when next we see that gown, Sansa has come up with the solution to dye it black; ostensibly as a symbol of royal mourning, but in reality to cover the stains left by the blood orange, and she wears it when she goes before the court to plead for her father:

Her gown was the ivory silk that the queen had given her, the one Arya had ruined, but she'd had them dye it black and you couldn't see the stain at all.

AGOT, Ch.57

The answer to the question “why green?” is twofold. First, and on a practical level, bloodstains that have failed to wash out of white fabric can often have a greenish cast, especially when the fabric are wool and silk, in which case the removal of bloodstains is even harder than for other fabrics, and both Sansa’s dress and Sandor’s cloaks are tailored precisely from these materials. Second, Sandor wearing the green cloak at the Tourney occurred the morning after their first significant interaction, so Sansa would have reason to remember his attire that day. Also, Sandor’s usual attire when he wasn’t armoured was a brown jerkin under his Kingsguard cloak, which wasn’t lost on Sansa either:

The white cloak of the Kingsguard was draped over his broad shoulders and fastened with a jeweled brooch, the snowy cloth looking somehow unnatural against his brown rough-spun tunic and studded leather jerkin. “Lady Sansa,” the Hound announced curtly when he saw her.

So the brown dress under the remade Kingsguard cloak is a perfect mirror of Sandor’s garb. The fact that she uses the green cloak to shield herself is so symbolically perfect that the conclusion almost writes itself.

On the matter of the hood, we don’t know for certain that Sandor’s cloak had a hood or not, but it’s likely that it didn’t since ceremonial cloaks were of the “cape” type and generally didn’t have hoods. We would suggest that if it did not, although Sandor most likely ripped a strip from the bottom of it to use as a bandage ("Sansa heard cloth ripping…"), we should remember that he stands well over a foot taller than Sansa, so it was a large piece of cloth and it’d be easy for a young lady known to be clever with her needle to cut a cloak down and fashion a hood from the pieces.

As closing thoughts, it’s noteworthy that after Sansa reveals that the cloak has been hidden away under her summer silks, she doesn’t think of it again until this passage:

As the boy’s lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak

AFFC, Ch.41

This can indicate that she has the cloak still, since she doesn’t mention what became of it nor gives any indication that it is lost to her. Since we know that she only took one cloak with her as she fled King’s Landing, we shall now say with confidence, quod erat demonstrandum.

I like this. What makes it even funnier for me is that she may have been working on the cloak during the time when she was friendly with the Tyrells. IIRC one of the things Sansa does with them is needlework. Here the Tyrells are talking up how great their marriage plans for her are, and Sansa is subconsciously rebelling against it by remaking Sandor's cloak. Also when Sansa hanging with the Tyrells isn't that the time when she remembers the Blackwater encounter with Sandor?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Bloody Cloak: A Crackpot

As it’s often been discussed in the Pawn to Player threads, the cloak is highly significant as a symbol of protection and comfort in Sansa’s arc, but not just any cloak as not all of those she’s gotten have borne the same significance as one cloak in particular: the white one of the members of the royal guard belonging to the Hound, which is missing and unaccounted for after that brief line in ASOS Sansa I, in which she reveals she “had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks.”

Or is it? With the participation of co-conspirator Milady of York, I’d like to present here my favorite little crackpot theory about what happened to Sandor’s discarded bloody Kingsguard cloak, inspired by earlier work for this thread.

Let’s start enumerating Sandor Clegane’s cloaks: apart from the Kingsguard one, only two other cloaks belonging to him are noted in the books. In AGOT, we find him associated with a bloody cloak for the first time:

There was something slung over the back of his destrier, a heavy shape wrapped in a bloody cloak. “No sign of your daughter, Hand,” the Hound rasped down, “but the day was not wholly wasted. We got her little pet.”

AGOT, Ch.16

It’s to be noted that the colour of this cloak isn’t mentioned at all, though we can speculate that it could’ve been crimson, for two reasons: Sandor is a Lannister man whose liege lady is Cersei, and the Lannister guards and men-at-arms wear crimson cloaks as a sort of uniform, and also because his presenting the cut down body of Mycah to Lord Eddard is reminiscent of Tywin presenting the bodies of the Targaryen babies murdered by Gregor to Robert in a bloodied crimson cloak.

Then, at the Hand’s Tourney, Sandor wears an olive-green cloak when he saves Ser Loras from his monstrous brother:

Sandor Clegane was the first rider to appear. He wore an olive- green cloak over his soot-grey armor. That, and his hound’s-head helm, were his only concession to ornament

AGOT, Ch. 30

This is the only time the colour of Sandor’s cloak is noted, other than the Kingsguard white, and in contrast to this and the previous cloaks which are like uniforms, this one is his own personal garment.

When he joined Joffrey’s garde de corps, he would give Sansa his white cloak when she was beaten and stripped in public, which is the first demonstration on Sansa’s part that she finds his cloak comforting, and although the fate of the first cloak isn’t known either, this isn’t the one that interests us and whose whereabouts we aim to reveal in this crackpot but a later one.

In ACOK, we are familiar with the scene where Sandor visits Sansa’s chambers after he breaks during the fiery Battle of Blackwater. When he has taken his song he departs, leaving his discarded cloak behind, for Sansa to pick it up:

She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire […] She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering.

ACOK, Ch. 62

In ASOS, as Sansa flees King’s Landing, she dons a deep green cloak with a large hood in the castle godswood to cover the brightness of the pearls on the bodice of her brown dress.

Dress warmly, Ser Dontos had told her, and dress dark. She had no blacks, so she chose a dress of thick brown wool. The bodice was decorated with freshwater pearls, though. The cloak will cover them. The cloak was deep green, with a large hood.

ASOS, Ch.61

Interestingly, Sansa has a cloak in dark colours, a grey cloak, which may have served quite well to cover her in this occasion:

Sansa threw a plain grey cloak over her shoulders and picked up the knife she used to cut her meat. If it is some trap, better that I die than let them hurt me more, she told herself. She hid the blade under her cloak

ACOK, Ch.18

But instead of donning that one, she chose a green cloak. And the reason behind this is that it’s the Kingsguard cloak. We believe Sansa has dyed Sandor’s white cloak green to cover the blood stains. We know she has used this tactic to cover “blood” stains in the past; in AGOT we read that Arya hurled a blood orange at her sister in a fit of anger and ruined her lovely new ivory silk gown:

. . . Arya flung the orange across the table. It caught her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish and plopped down into her lap […] The blood orange had left a blotchy red stain on the silk.

AGOT, Ch. 44

And when next we see that gown, Sansa has come up with the solution to dye it black; ostensibly as a symbol of royal mourning, but in reality to cover the stains left by the blood orange, and she wears it when she goes before the court to plead for her father:

Her gown was the ivory silk that the queen had given her, the one Arya had ruined, but she'd had them dye it black and you couldn't see the stain at all.

AGOT, Ch.57

The answer to the question “why green?” is twofold. First, and on a practical level, bloodstains that have failed to wash out of white fabric can often have a greenish cast, especially when the fabric are wool and silk, in which case the removal of bloodstains is even harder than for other fabrics, and both Sansa’s dress and Sandor’s cloaks are tailored precisely from these materials. Second, Sandor wearing the green cloak at the Tourney occurred the morning after their first significant interaction, so Sansa would have reason to remember his attire that day. Also, Sandor’s usual attire when he wasn’t armoured was a brown jerkin under his Kingsguard cloak, which wasn’t lost on Sansa either:

The white cloak of the Kingsguard was draped over his broad shoulders and fastened with a jeweled brooch, the snowy cloth looking somehow unnatural against his brown rough-spun tunic and studded leather jerkin. “Lady Sansa,” the Hound announced curtly when he saw her.

So the brown dress under the remade Kingsguard cloak is a perfect mirror of Sandor’s garb. The fact that she uses the green cloak to shield herself is so symbolically perfect that the conclusion almost writes itself.

On the matter of the hood, we don’t know for certain that Sandor’s cloak had a hood or not, but it’s likely that it didn’t since ceremonial cloaks were of the “cape” type and generally didn’t have hoods. We would suggest that if it did not, although Sandor most likely ripped a strip from the bottom of it to use as a bandage ("Sansa heard cloth ripping…"), we should remember that he stands well over a foot taller than Sansa, so it was a large piece of cloth and it’d be easy for a young lady known to be clever with her needle to cut a cloak down and fashion a hood from the pieces.

As closing thoughts, it’s noteworthy that after Sansa reveals that the cloak has been hidden away under her summer silks, she doesn’t think of it again until this passage:

As the boy’s lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak

AFFC, Ch.41

This can indicate that she has the cloak still, since she doesn’t mention what became of it nor gives any indication that it is lost to her. Since we know that she only took one cloak with her as she fled King’s Landing, we shall now say with confidence, quod erat demonstrandum.

All I can say is..... :bowdown:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are no words to really capture how delicious this crackpot is for me, truly, no words :) When Milady and I did the comparative essays on the Hound and Littefinger, we looked at the matter of cloaks, and how LF misjudges the true reason why Sansa is shivering on the boat. The Hound's cloak is appreciated for its comfort and connection to the man himself, and as this crackpot now suggests, LF would have been putting his cloak over one that belongs to Sandor, effectively eliminating any symbolic intimacy the mockingbird wanted to create with Sansa.







I like this. What makes it even funnier for me is that she may have been working on the cloak during the time when she was friendly with the Tyrells. IIRC one of the things Sansa does with them is needlework. Here the Tyrells are talking up how great their marriage plans for her are, and Sansa is subconsciously rebelling against it by remaking Sandor's cloak. Also when Sansa hanging with the Tyrells isn't that the time when she remembers the Blackwater encounter with Sandor?





Yes, that's the first time we're aware that she has the unkiss memory. And she will later go on to show much resistance to receiving Tyrion's cloak at their wedding.



------------------



A gentle reminder that quoting long posts should be avoided. Simply highlighting a relevant section or offering your praise without quoting will suffice.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like this. What makes it even funnier for me is that she may have been working on the cloak during the time when she was friendly with the Tyrells. IIRC one of the things Sansa does with them is needlework. Here the Tyrells are talking up how great their marriage plans for her are, and Sansa is subconsciously rebelling against it by remaking Sandor's cloak. Also when Sansa hanging with the Tyrells isn't that the time when she remembers the Blackwater encounter with Sandor?

Yes as brash noted, Sansa II in ASoS is the first time she misremembers the kiss. It's also the chapter where Cersei orders her new wardrobe (the gown she will marry Tyrion in, as well as smallclothes, kirtles, mantles and cloaks.) Later in the chapter she spends "long afternoons doing needlework and talking" with the Tyrell women. Easy enough to slip a project of her own in amongst all that needlework ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Bloody Cloak: A Crackpot

snip/

Excellent sleuthing Lady Gwynhyfvar!

I agree, the shielding of herself with the cloak, in the context of your idea, is symbolically perfect. Looks like those needlework lessons might have been useful. If you're correct, the clues were very subtle, and it's great you fit the pieces together. Good work! ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like those needlework lessons might have been useful.

It does highlight how both needlework practices by the Stark sisters can be liberating and symbolically important. The only difference is that one is traditional and the other unconventional.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It does highlight how both needlework practices by the Stark sisters can be liberating and symbolically important. The only difference is that one is traditional and the other unconventional.

Now you've brought the Arya 'needle' sword parallel into my mind, with Lady Gwyn's assertion of Sansa's needlework creating 'a shield', I'm liking this whole idea even more now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like this. What makes it even funnier for me is that she may have been working on the cloak during the time when she was friendly with the Tyrells. IIRC one of the things Sansa does with them is needlework. Here the Tyrells are talking up how great their marriage plans for her are, and Sansa is subconsciously rebelling against it by remaking Sandor's cloak.

Interesting possibility. Sansa mentions the cloak in her first ASOS chapter, before meeting the Tyrell ladies, and it's later, in her second chapter, where she's doing needlework with the Tyrell cousins. And right after mentioning what she's doing with them, she remembers the UnKiss for the first time explicitly, stating first that it was she who kissed him and then that he kissed her too, implying reciprocity. So, if we're correct and the green cloak is Sandor's remade Kingsguard cloak, then it's thematically fitting that it'd have been sewing his cloak what prompted her to bring that desire from the depths of her subconscious to the surface, to her conscious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really love this theory regarding the green cloak. Well done!



In the past when I thought about the cloak Sandor left her I felt sad thinking her clothing including cloak went up in green fire when Cersei burnt the tower of the Hand. I love this theory so much more.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Bloody Cloak: A Crackpot

snip

Lady Gwyn, very nice work. I \'d like to add one more thing here that the colors of the cloaks is very important as well. The red/bloody cloak is worn during actions that are bloody or stained with dishonour, cruelty etc. The white one is for protection, the one in which Sansa feels safe, it's like snow that keeps her safe quite like Winterfell or the North. The green one, seeing that it it is specifically olive green, signifies tact and diplomacy, as that is what olives are associated to, something that was noticed in the Food Code thread. In all ocassions Sandor/Sansa don that cloak, tact or diplomacy is involved as the subtext.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It does highlight how both needlework practices by the Stark sisters can be liberating and symbolically important. The only difference is that one is traditional and the other unconventional.

Love it. As Alia said, two halves of a whole. Funny how most people would write off Sansa's type of needlework as dull and unimportant when it turns out that it could be a big part of her inner resistance and growth. And, as yolkboy notes, with the Arya's needle parallel the idea of using a needle to create a shield becomes quite delicious :)

Interesting possibility. Sansa mentions the cloak in her first ASOS chapter, before meeting the Tyrell ladies, and it's later, in her second chapter, where she's doing needlework with the Tyrell cousins. And right after mentioning what she's doing with them, she remembers the UnKiss for the first time explicitly, stating first that it was she who kissed him and then that he kissed her too, implying reciprocity. So, if we're correct and the green cloak is Sandor's remade Kingsguard cloak, then it's thematically fitting that it'd have been sewing his cloak what prompted her to bring that desire from the depths of her subconscious to the surface, to her conscious.

The whole idea of saving the cloak and coupling it with the un-Kiss is highly reminiscent of a modern teenage girl giddily wearing a boyfriend's jacket or sweatshirt... In other words, the nearness of the garment provokes a highly romanticized response in the wearer. At the same time, Sansa is feeling both pity and envy for the inexperienced younger girls. How symbolically appropriate for her to be clutching the actual cloak in her hands as she clutches her secrets in her heart.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×