Bakker - "You worship suffering."

[kuenjato]

Lol, I didn't even notice the femtards comment. The dude really brings it upon himself.

What's also hilarious is that he writes it and immediately afterward advises (himself? others?) to use humor rather than direct [confrontational/ex(mans)plaining] defense. Unintentional irony, thy name is Bakker.

Now, are there "Femtards" (aka agenda-obsessives to the point of idiocy / willful disregard of conflicting data)? Of course, that exists everywhere. But it cycles back to that internet persona, foot-in-mouth that we've all grown used to.

[generic]

Well the full quote is:

The Attack of the Femtards was something I had anticipated, even courted - but unfortunately moral notoriety doesn’t make for many book sales!

So his strategy for selling his books was trolling? Thinking back, it might actually have worked in my case. It probably were the Bakker and woman threads that first caught my attention.

[Sci-2]

Now, are there "Femtards" (aka agenda-obsessives to the point of idiocy / willful disregard of conflicting data)? Of course, that exists everywhere. But it cycles back to that internet persona, foot-in-mouth that we've all grown used to.

This seems less foot in mouth, and more like an upper middle class rapper desperately sticking mentions of "staying strapped" or "getting the drop on 5-O" [into his rhymes].

[Rhom]

Heh, if nothing else it ups the stakes for TUC to be really, really good.

After all, it's the books as a total arc that he staked his rep on. If TUC is mediocre, or even just a fun read, it's gonna be disappointing.

Does he mean "total arc" as in "The Aspect Emperor Trilogy" or is he talking about the grander scheme which would presumably include the unnamed duology (??) following TUC?

So in light of the news, what is a typical timeline? About a year?

I dunno. He seems to be intimating some pretty extensive rewrites. I think that still leaves it as all bets off.

[Castel]

This seems less foot in mouth, and more like an upper middle class rapper desperately sticking mentions of "staying strapped" or "getting the drop on 5-O" [into his rhymes].

You think there's something inauthentic about calling your critics "femtards"?

[Faint]

I've arrived at the point at which I'm simply not going to recommend him to others anymore, particularly women. Anyone who types his name in Google is likely to see this garbage and just the thought of providing even a partial defense of Bakker makes me nauseous.

[Sci-2]

You think there's something inauthentic about calling your critics "femtards"?

I think it's Bakker trying to poke the bear. It comes off as a Kanye West offend the masses kind of thing.

If Bakker was still relevant to the larger SFF community it might have mattered, but at this point it has a bit of a desperate stink to it.

[Castel]

I think it's Bakker trying to poke the bear. It comes off as a Kanye West offend the masses kind of thing.

If Bakker was still relevant to the larger SFF community it might have mattered, but at this point it has a bit of a desperate stink to it.

Ah, I get you. Normally I'd be skeptical of the results of reading intentions this way but since Bakker has outright admitted that he threw it in there knowing it'd fuck with people...*shrugs* :dunno:

[Sci-2]

Ah, I get you. Normally I'd be skeptical of the results of reading intentions this way but since Bakker has outright admitted that he threw it in there knowing it'd fuck with people...*shrugs* :dunno:

That he mentioned Westeros in particular is even sadder.

If you're stalking the board, at least post here.

Never mind. Best to get back to the books.

[kuenjato]

That he mentioned Westeros in particular is even sadder.

If you're stalking the board, at least post here.

Never mind. Best to get back to the books.

Why wouldn't he lurk (as opposed to 'stalk') given the usual quality of discussion on the lit board? If I was a published author as opposed to an amatuer, I'd been lurking here as well.

[Sci-2]

Does he mean "total arc" as in "The Aspect Emperor Trilogy" or is he talking about the grander scheme which would presumably include the unnamed duology (??) following TUC?

Maybe it's just me, but I figure PoN + AE held the majority of the thematic arcs on their own.

I guess I figure Earwa will be radically changed following TUC in one way or another, and similarly many characters would be dead. As such, the final duology/trilogy would be something new, or perhaps a coda of sorts to whatever happens in TUC from a narrative and allegorical standpoint.

@Kuenjato:

I figure I'd be remiss to keep talking about Bakker's motivations after I said I'd stop.

[Castel]

Why wouldn't he lurk (as opposed to 'stalk') given the usual quality of discussion on the lit board? If I was a published author as opposed to an amatuer, I'd been lurking here as well.

You know, funny enough, we recently had a thread where it was argued that writers should be careful about engaging with fans because they shut the discussion down. I doubt most people noticed they were arguing for Bakkerian sock-puppets. (Not sure that he has any reason to post since all he's broadcasting is BBT and status updates)

[sologdin]

Maybe it's just me, but I figure PoN + AE held the majority of the thematic arcs on their own.

I.

there's some substantial rhetorical differences between the two series, which should affect the thematics. the first series presents a story with a known resolution--it is one long analepsis, or, alternatively, contains numerous proleptic moments, depending on how we read the DA chronicle excerpts (i.e., as primary or secondary in importance).

the second series lacks sustained prolepsis, and those few moments that appear proleptic may well be undisciplined defects.

the distinction is that we have no idea where series two is going, whereas everyone should have known where series one was going. that's a big deal, seems to me. the lack of sustained prolepsis in part two makes it less complicated, less subtle, lesser, in my not at all humble estimation.

[Faint]

Is it still certain we are getting the unnamed duology? I've not seen news about it for some time now.

[Suttree]

From the comment section of his blog.

naiv9: Foot in mouth strikes again! The usual discussion has commenced elsewhere concerning the Femtards comment. Which is expected. Not sure why you obsess on this when there are so many other things one might obsess about without the predictable backlash/hand-wringing/contempt-instead-of-connection, but whatevs, you predicted this in any case and carried on as an experiment or confirmative experience (etc. etc.)

rsbakker: My obsessions are nowhere near so practical, I fear. I guess I figured that great umbrage and pious fury would occasion this comment, wherein those who are holy would expound for the benefit of those in the shadow of genre temptation! Hark, Children of Westeros – Hark! Hear thee the appalling truth of Bakker’s countless iniquities!

Pretty damn classic.

[sologdin]

it's a douchey comment and a douchier response, and is, in fact, asymptotic to perfect, mathematical douchitude. the gender critique can be erroneous despite (rather than because of) the vulgar liberal-feminist principles on which it apparently proceeds, such as the philistine deployment of agency theory. it can likewise be erroneous in kind rather than degree (or vv.), or erroneous regarding certain reductive hermeneutics that produce an unauthorized concordance between text and authorial character--the same principles that tolkien-is-not-racist proponents use to deny the racism of the rhetoric because tolkien personally disclaimed racism in extrinsic writings--or it can be erroneous in its premises even though the conclusions derived therefrom are perfectly valid logically. it can be erroneous for any of those reasons or all of them or more--but it is not erroneous because of a mental disability listed in DSM-IV, or because of the defamatory imputation of fundamentalist, crusading, or inquisitional intention to critics, or because there is extra-textual animosity.

[Baztek]

I think people are too hard on Bakker. He just seems like a chill dude who is prone to a little navel-gazing from time to time. "Femtards" wasn't the smoothest move but at the end of the day the guy put his heart and soul in these books and to have them be written off for clumsily mishandling one theme probably isn't the best thing to wake up to.

[sologdin]

couple things on that, baz. on the one hand, he's as smart as they get, plenty educated, accustomed to contention--so there can be no objection that anyone is too hard on him. he can take whatever they got. on the other hand, i happen to be a fan of his fictions and am generally supportive, and won't concede that anything was clumsy or mishandled. suffice it to say that some readers dislike the fictions, which might be explained by a constellation of causes.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I think he just noticed that this thread had fallen to page two for 36 hours so he did a thread bump by proxy.

[Sci-2]

@Solo:

there's some substantial rhetorical differences between the two series, which should affect the thematics. the first series presents a story with a known resolution--it is one long analepsis, or, alternatively, contains numerous proleptic moments, depending on how we read the DA chronicle excerpts (i.e., as primary or secondary in importance).

Hmmm, I found the DA excerpts to largely be proleptic/flashforward, though I suppose the tense offers a clue on how the books might be read with respect to a viewpoint in time.

For myself I also thought of Esmi's past as the most important "external analepsis" aka "flashback to events occurring before the book starts"

the second series lacks sustained prolepsis, and those few moments that appear proleptic may well be undisciplined defects.

What do you make of the WLW's visions? And what possibly "undisciplined defects" do you see?

the distinction is that we have no idea where series two is going, whereas everyone should have known where series one was going. that's a big deal, seems to me. the lack of sustained prolepsis in part two makes it less complicated, less subtle, lesser, in my not at all humble estimation.

Hmmm, what value do you see the prolepsis/flashfoward having in the first series? Or do you think that as the first series was defined as an analepsis/flashback, the second series should possess (or even primarily be) a sustained prolepsis?

Also, do you take the apparent reality of multiple characters' impending damnation as prolepsis? At the very least it would seem Serwa, Akka, Kellhus, Eskeles, Aurax, Aurang, and all the other Anagogis and Gnosis practioners are damned.

i happen to be a fan of his fictions and am generally supportive, and won't concede that anything was clumsy or mishandled.

Wait, you just spoke of "undisciplined defects"? Not trying to pin you down with a "gotcha", just curious where you [are] coming from. If you're speaking about the gender exploration specifically, curious how you see Esmi and Mimara's arcs.