Bakker - "You worship suffering."

[Castel]

The longest previous book was The Warrior-Prophet, which was 205,000 words, so yeah, this is pretty big by his standards. However, it will come down a bit in rewrites, I imagine.

More worrying is the bit where he says there is a possibility that The Unholy Consult might have to be split into two volumes.

Hey, he gave Mith quite massive props in the comments.

That was my first thought too. How did this work when Martin did it (in other countries)? Was there a significant delay between books?

[kuenjato]

One of the things I really liked about WLW as how the storyline back in the empire improved. It was pretty much just Lil Kel in TJE, but then in WLW we got Inralatus, Maithanet, Meppa, Malo, and Fanayal. Esmi's arc was unfortunate as far as the hiding as a whore part, but it became interesting all over again at the end. And I have no earthly idea where that one is going, so it's interesting to hear him say Malowebi has become a favorite. Can't wait to see what happens there.

Any hints as to whether some kind of appendix makes up any part of that 300K pages?

Doesn't seem like it takes up any of it, from RSB's comments.

Is it standard now that mid-list authors have word count caps?

[Sci-2]

I kinda doubt there will be a split. Isn't there a bit of marketing to having the trilogy, which readers seem ready to embrace, rather than four books which starts to feel like too much of an investment?

And I have no earthly idea where that one is going, so it's interesting to hear him say Malowebi has become a favorite. Can't wait to see what happens there.

I figure the uncertainty is what makes the second trilogy more of a nail biter, which is why I'm curious about Solo's opinion that lack of prolepsis reduces quality.

If you're going for prolepsis it doesn't get much more specific than wlw killing Kellhus with a broken sword.

It's hard to say if this is going to happen though, given the No-God's influence in time being invisible to the Hundred.

[Castel]

EDIT: NVM, I think you meant the prolepsis and I misunderstood.

[Sci-2]

It's also kind of confusing all of the signals we've been given about the WLW and Kellhus. Is it our italicized and nameless character that kills Maithanet? Is it Fanayal who states that he is the one to kill him? Is it Sorweel?

Huh? Who else would it be?

[Castel]

I just mean that Fanayal says he's the one to kill Kellhus and Sorweel seems to have trepidations that he's been enlisted to do the same as well. So we have at least three entities that are thinking it's their fate in some way. Not that I know what to make of any of that.

Only one of them has any real established divine view though. Sorweel is grasping in the dark and Fanayal is Fanim!Conphas.

[Francis Buck]

It's "crazy", IMO, if he uses that length to both push the narrative to its natural conclusion and reveal the underlying conflict/secrets that have driven the series so far. TTT, for example, was what, 150k? On the other hand, one can chunk out 200k-300k and not reveal much of anything; see Jordan's turgid third act (Path of Daggers through Crossroads) or Feast, for that matter, which I liked but did not significantly move much of anything forward or reveal much more than "Westeros is in shambles."

So... 300k means we're getting a lot, from previous experience, and as I've stated elsewhere, the success or failure of TAE is predicated on this last novel. 300k means RSB is probably not leaving (much) deliberately ambiguous, at least towards the surface conflict(s).

Yeah that's what I was going for. Obviously there are plenty of novels (fantasy or otherwise) that just as large or larger, but compared to what we've seen with the series so far, it's a pretty big step up. It makes sense though, especially if he holds true to his claim of revealing the better part of the main mysteries and such, as well as resolving the disparate storylines up to this point.

[Sci-2]

I just mean that Fanayal says he's the one to kill Kellhus and Sorweel seems to have trepidations that he's been enlisted to do the same as well. So we have at least three entities that are thinking it's their fate in some way. Not that I know what to make of any of that.

Ah, when you said Maithanet I was confused as it's obvious the WLW kills the Holy Shirah(sp?).

eta:

I'm kinda worried TUC will be bad.

[Rhom]

Ah, when you said Maithanet I was confused as it's obvious the WLW kills the Holy Shirah(sp?).

eta:

I'm kinda worried TUC will be bad.

I'm not worried it'll be bad... I'm very concerned it will be bloated. It certainly seems like there's a lot that needs to happen and only one book to make it happen.

With his concern for a very definite thematic closure and his expressed doubts that we'll ever see the concluding series; I am curious about how this one could end neatly.

[Sci-2]

I'm not worried it'll be bad... I'm very concerned it will be bloated. It certainly seems like there's a lot that needs to happen and only one book to make it happen.

With his concern for a very definite thematic closure and his expressed doubts that we'll ever see the concluding series; I am curious about how this one could end neatly.

Ah, that's a better way of putting it.

When I say "bad" I don't mean it will out and out suck. We will get awesome magical battles, crazy twists in alliances, all that jazz.

But my big worry is damnation/salvation. It's hard for me to see a resolution to this conundrum that is satisfying. Not to mention the fact that showing who is damned/saved almost certainly requires a 3rd person objective view simply telling us this information.

[Baztek]

The last time Bakker tried to deliver on a big build-up was Kellhus' meeting with Moe, which ended up being just more "dunyain are so smart people are so dumb lol" talk. Granted, it still got people talking and he's improved a lot since then so I'm reasonably confident he'll do a great job bringing all the relevant plotlines to a close in TUC.

[sologdin]

this is his revenge of the sith, then? there's plenty of thingies that everyone knows need to happen, but no rational way to string them together coherently.

Kellhus: You are so... beautiful.

Inverse Fire: It's only because I'm so in love.

Kellhus: No, it's because I'm so in love with you.

Inverse Fire: So love has blinded you?

[Rhom]

The last time Bakker tried to deliver on a big build-up was Kellhus' meeting with Moe, which ended up being just more "dunyain are so smart people are so dumb lol" talk. Granted, it still got people talking and he's improved a lot since then so I'm reasonably confident he'll do a great job bringing all the relevant plotlines to a close in TUC.

I'm still wondering if Kellhus already knew the Nonmen had thrown in with the Consult or not. That's actually one of my biggest questions.

[Baztek]

If I remember correctly, Akka describes the sight of the Nonmen on their black horses when he tells Kellhus about Mengedda. Not sure if it was what Akka said or just in the text itself.

[Sci-2]

The last time Bakker tried to deliver on a big build-up was Kellhus' meeting with Moe, which ended up being just more "dunyain are so smart people are so dumb lol" talk. Granted, it still got people talking and he's improved a lot since then so I'm reasonably confident he'll do a great job bringing all the relevant plotlines to a close in TUC.

this is his revenge of the sith, then? there's plenty of thingies that everyone knows need to happen, but no rational way to string them together coherently.

In the comments Bakker refers to TUC's plot involving a Gordian Knot, and I suspect damnation is part of that.

I think the challenge is making the conclusions about damnation flow naturally from the character arcs and having this knowledge not seem completely arbitrary.

Either that, or have it come off as arbitrary and yet have that irrationality mean something more than, "So X,Y, and Z are going to Hell. That sucks!"

Not to mention the God ideally has some actual role to play here in some fashion.

[Spring Bass]

Maybe Mimara will channel God and wish damnation into non-existence. Suck it Hundred Gods! No more souls for you to munch on!

[Veltigar]

I see these Bakker threads turn up regularly. I have to say that I'm quite curious. Why are they so popular? This Bakker fellow is a writer but are these praise threads or mock threads?

[Sci-2]

Maybe Mimara will channel God and wish damnation into non-existence. Suck it Hundred Gods! No more souls for you to munch on!

I suspect it's much more likely Bakker cuts off the Outside, which throws souls into damnation but convinces their empty shells they've been saved.

I see these Bakker threads turn up regularly. I have to say that I'm quite curious. Why are they so popular? This Bakker fellow is a writer but are these praise threads or mock threads?

It's critical examination so there's both praise and blame. There's probably more speculation and discussion of the world than anything else though.

Very little discussion about character development.

[Veltigar]

I suspect it's much more likely Bakker cuts off the Outside, which throws souls into damnation but convinces their empty shells they've been saved.

It's critical examination so there's both praise and blame. There's probably more speculation and discussion of the world than anything else though.

Very little discussion about character development.

Thanks for the quick response. I'm guessing that this Bakker fellow is well worth the read then?

[lokisnow]

I see these Bakker threads turn up regularly. I have to say that I'm quite curious. Why are they so popular? This Bakker fellow is a writer but are these praise threads or mock threads?

RS Bakker is an author of two epic fantasy series. The first is the Prince of Nothing, it is continued in the second series, The Aspect Emperor. He has just announced that he has finished the third and final book of the Aspect Emperor.

He's a midlist author, meaning his sales are not stellar, but his genre work is deply in the George RR Martin heritage/influence of the fantasy genre that cuts against the traditionalist high fantasy vein. Like ASOIAF, this is dirty fantasy. As Martin loosely constructed his world around the real life war of the roses, Bakker loosely constructed his world around the real life Crusades. Religion plays a much bigger role in his novels than Martin's, as does magic. He has a penchant for the macabre and grotesque, though, delighting in degradation, which many/most genre readers find extraordinarily offputting--particularly his intensely graphic (and perhaps appropriately uncomfortable) depictions of rape (which have earned him comparisons to hentai), which only happen onscreen to women. Bakker always softplays male rape, dancing around it with his verbiage, and making sure it happens off screen. This has given him an extraordinary reputation as something of a misogynist, which is probably a little unfair, but one he has courted, given what he has written in his novels and about his novels.

The books themselves are outstanding, riveting, fascinating reads. They also have really difficult names, not quite so bad as the infamous Grgnr, but close, this has been an issue for many readers.