Bakker - "You worship suffering."

[Callan S.]

I see these Bakker threads turn up regularly. I have to say that I'm quite curious. Why are they so popular? This Bakker fellow is a writer but are these praise threads or mock threads?

Crossroads between the two.

[Larry of the Lawn]

In the comments Bakker refers to TUC's plot involving a Gordian Knot, and I suspect damnation is part of that.

I think the challenge is making the conclusions about damnation flow naturally from the character arcs and having this knowledge not seem completely arbitrary.

Either that, or have it come off as arbitrary and yet have that irrationality mean something more than, "So X,Y, and Z are going to Hell. That sucks!"

Not to mention the God ideally has some actual role to play here in some fashion.

What do you think is the connection between damnation and his Gordian knot comment?

If damnation is part of his Gordian knot, maybe it will be revealed to be nothing but a human/Inchie fantasy when Alexander/Kellhus cuts it in twain. Or alternately, is the inchoroi attempt to seal the world to solve the problem of damnation akin to using a sword to untie a knot?

edit: don't know how to spell

[unJon]

Granted, it still got people talking and he's improved a lot since then so I'm reasonably confident he'll do a great job bringing all the relevant plotlines to a close in TUC.

"Gordian knot" doesn't sound like your normal definition of closure, but I guess we'll see.

[unJon]

Interesting RSB comment.

Good to hear from you Mith! The only way I can see this being ready for summer 2014 is if my publishers decide to split the thing. This is the impasse at the moment: the book is looking too big. There really is nothing more I can say until everything is sorted out. I do want you to know that Ive taken many of the criticisms youve made of the previous books quite seriously in writing this Although not identical to my vision of the series, yours has been close enough to alert me to a number of the ways Ive strayed enough to convince me to let the book write itself, rather than shoehorn it into anyone elses schedule.

Don't suppose any regular TPB readers know this Mith fellas vision for the series?

[unJon]

Justin Voss:

By the way.what does Sranc taste like?

RSB:

Four Revelations holds the answer to your final question

So it appears seance taste like lamb (which is what Conphas says the burning nonman cooks like as opposed to men who cook like pigs). This also seems confirmation about the link between sranc and nonmen flesh and feeds into eating sranc having some effect on people (in some way like qirri does).

[Larry of the Lawn]

So it appears seance taste like lamb (which is what Conphas says the burning nonman cooks like as opposed to men who cook like pigs). This also seems confirmation about the link between sranc and nonmen flesh and feeds into eating sranc having some effect on people (in some way like qirri does).

Ask your local butcher at your own peril.

[Madness]

"Gordian knot" doesn't sound like your normal definition of closure, but I guess we'll see.

I think that the story moved beyond the 'seed idea' in the interim decades before TDTCB and the series started to be published. I'm of the opinion that over the years of fleshing out the story, more of than the 'seed idea' developed.

He clearly has a story planned for after TUC that reflects the events in the series...

[Callan S.]

I would suspect that the gordian knot is a cycle of damnation that eventually starts contradicting itself, attempts to rationalise how it's not contradicting itself (after all, it might have to damn itself...) and is continually on the crest of both contradicting itself and rationalising itself - a kind of conciousness. Possibly that self conflicting crest is the birth place of the hundred gods and ciphrang.

And hey, we got back to character development!

[Sci-2]

So it appears seance taste like lamb (which is what Conphas says the burning nonman cooks like as opposed to men who cook like pigs). This also seems confirmation about the link between sranc and nonmen flesh and feeds into eating sranc having some effect on people (in some way like qirri does).

Yeah, I think the humans who reach Golgotterath will be rather powerful. Though perhaps the burning of a Nonman corpse is what make qirri so potent?

Is this a chemical reaction or a magical one? Can ash have the same properties as raw flesh?

This ties into the question of whether Earwa has magic infused into it's [its] evolutionary process or the onta is fundamentally mundane until poked around by the consciousness possessing minds of the Few.

[Spring Bass]

I suspect it's much more likely Bakker cuts off the Outside, which throws souls into damnation but convinces their empty shells they've been saved.

So basically the No-God's resurrection?

I guess the latter would fit with the Second Apocalypse unofficial title. :D

[Sci-2]

So basically the No-God's resurrection?

I guess the latter would fit with the Second Apocalypse unofficial title. :D

Well in that version [proposed by me] all humanity become like the Sranc, devoid of souls. But everyone living has their soul shunted into the Outside.

Since magic would be gone the inability to apprehend paradox might not be a clue, since even in their memories such apprehension would elude the soul-less shells.

Think about the Scions torturing the Sranc. Their [The Sranc's] soulless nature is what apparently justifies such treatment. If humans and Nonmen are also soulless, why can't they treat each other the way the Scions treated the Sranc captive?

[Castel]

Well in that version [proposed by me] all humanity become like the Sranc, devoid of souls. But everyone living has their soul shunted into the Outside.

Since magic would be gone the inability to apprehend paradox might not be a clue, since even in their memories such apprehension would elude the soul-less shells.

Think about the Scions torturing the Sranc. Their soulless nature is what apparently justifies such treatment. If humans and Nonmen are also soulless, why can't they treat each other the way the Scions treated the Sranc captive?

I'm pretty sure that the inability to have kids would be the biggest clue that something is amiss.

As for being able to do as one pleases to beings without souls, that always seemed a bit weak to me, especially since we can't quite say what a soul is. The Dunyain ignore it and don't have any problems and the only obvious value it has seems to be for grasping paradoxes and magic.Sranc are still conscious. It seems more like a rationalization than anything. When Men fall victim to it, all of a sudden the rules will change I imagine.

EDIT: Basically it seems as if Earwa has the same problem we have pinning down a soul, except we know Earwans have souls by authorial fiat.

[Sci-2]

I'm pretty sure that the inability to have kids would be the biggest clue that something is amiss.

The stillborn thing might have more to do with the No God being around than the separation of the material universe and the Outside. After all, the Sranc breed without souls.

As for being able to do as one pleases to beings without souls, that always seemed a bit weak to me, especially since we can't quite say what a soul is.

It's a rationalization of sorts, but it is an interesting critique about the value of fodder races in fantasy. At least Bakker's monsters are genetically "evil".

=-=-=

Speaking about birth, thinking back to the "reek of her fetus" line. Is the Skin Spy specifically engineered to be disgusted by pregnancy, or was this a trait inadvertently coded into them due to their derivation from Inchie genetics?

Did the Inchies modify themselves to sniff out pregnancies? Perhaps they hunted down the pregnant females of their own race, before unleashing a Womb Plague....but then how could Ark be their Father-Mother?

I also wonder about how they decided which worlds to raze, and how they found Earwa. Perhaps they already had some apprehension of the Universal onta but couldn't work with Earwa's onta without modification?

[Borque]

Thanks for the quick response. I'm guessing that this Bakker fellow is well worth the read then?

Yes. Yes, he is. Start with "The Darkness That Comes Before". Don't give up until you've read about 200 pages - it takes some time for 1) the action to pick up and 2) the reader to get used to quite a few sömewhät wëird nâmës.

And you might want to stay out of these threads, spoilers are everywhere.

[Calibandar]

Interesting RSB comment. Don't suppose any regular TPB readers know this Mith fellas vision for the series?

I'm Mith :)

[Madness]

Lol. Who are they, who know not the name from thine coat of arms, Mithfanion?

[red snow]

I loved Bakker's statement on having completed the first draft. If his work wasn't so good, I'd accuse him of arrogance but damn it, I think he's onto something with his claims.

Fingers crossed this means we'll have the book in 2014.

I never found the names that bad in this series other than when I thought I was misprouncing the names later on. The pet name for Serwe had me thinking I was saying it completely wrong for instance.

[Francis Buck]

I never found the names that bad in this series other than when I thought I was misprouncing the names later on. The pet name for Serwe had me thinking I was saying it completely wrong for instance.

Hah yeah that confused me at first as well. I think it was a coincidence of me reading about feudal Japanese naming customs that made me realize what he was going for.

[unJon]

I'm Mith :)

oh awesome. Good props from author for you. Now do I need to rethink all the times I have vehemently opposed your speculations? Nah. :P

[Sci-2]

Was reading about the attitude changes that happen to people due to an NDE.

Really seems similar to what happened to Shae via the IF.