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Bakker - "You worship suffering."


lokisnow

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Was reading about the attitude changes that happen to people due to an NDE.

Really seems similar to what happened to Shae via the IF.

Hm? Link? Because I'm pretty surprised to hear you say that, you seemed to find the whole thing extremely improbable last time I was looking through the discussions.

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Hm? Link? Because I'm pretty surprised to hear you say that, you seemed to find the whole thing extremely improbable last time I was looking through the discussions.

Just to be clear, I'm thinking the vast majority of NDEs have mundane explanations regardless of how people convert.

Also thinking of the evil scientist in Neuropath having a machine that lets you experience any emotion at maximum intensity.

Basically I think Shae had an experience that felt real but had no genuine reality.

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I'd always thought that the vision that Bakker supposedly had when he conceived the whole thing ended with the series after Aspect Emperor, but Bakker's recent comments make it sound more like the original vision concludes with Unholy Consult and anything more is like icing on the cake if commercially possible. Anyone else wonder about this?

I find it odd too. It seems as if there's been a subtle shift. That or the fandom gave me the wrong impression.

On top of that, I feel as if we've moved from "final trilogy after UC" to "final duology" for some reason.

Just to be clear, I'm thinking the vast majority of NDEs have mundane explanations regardless of how people convert.

Also thinking of the evil scientist in Neuropath having a machine that lets you experience any emotion at maximum intensity.

Basically I think Shae had an experience that felt real but had no genuine reality.

Hm? I wasn't referring to the truth of the experience, I just thought that you found the whole "I saw hell, I'll now start murdering and torturing people and having oyster sex" improbable based on your view of human psychology.

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I find it odd too. It seems as if there's been a subtle shift. That or the fandom gave me the wrong impression.

On top of that, I feel as if we've moved from "final trilogy after UC" to "final duology" for some reason.

I recall Bakker talking about the break down from years back. It was originally PoN, AE, then duology.

Duology becoming a possible trilogy is more recent, and I'm not sure Bakker has ever said that.

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Agreed Castel and Trisk. What I'm thinking at this point is that a lot of the big, central conflicts come to a close, and many (most?) of the current characters have their arcs completed, but there will still be one significant plotline that must be followed through on post-TUC. For lack of a better way of explaining, perhaps TUC will sort of shear away a lot of the subplots and extra-characters, leaving only one real central conflict with a handful of characters, to be resolved in the duology.



ETA: For example, imagine that TUC ends right after the Battle of Pelennor Fields, and then the duology makes up the rest of RotK. Something along those lines is what I'm thinking might happen.


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Pretty sure there are definitive answers to this duology speculation on the zombie three seas board. Sci's spoiler matches my recollection, but I believe there are also Bakker quotes about whether its a tack on or part of the main arc. Also remember that AE was originally conceived as a duology. I also recall it being said that the final duology:

Would have about the same time gap as between PON and AE.

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Right, that's basically what I'm trying to say. I mean either the duology is like some kind of denouement, or it deals with the last remaining story threads. Like Madness said, the "seed" of his original propably just grew into something greater that he couldn't foresee.


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Would have about the same time gap as between PON and AE.

That's pretty interesting, I didn't know that. If that's the case, and assuming Akka lives, he'll be like...what, in his nineties? Unless he joins the Consult and gets a little Tekne booster or something.

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That's pretty interesting, I didn't know that. If that's the case, and assuming Akka lives, he'll be like...what, in his nineties? Unless he joins the Consult and gets a little Tekne booster or something.

Or Quirri is just that good...

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Or Quirri is just that good...

So in a few months there is gonna be a near-immortal army of inexhaustible Jihadists?

If Sranc meat has the same properties as Non-men ash one must imagine that everyone born before the Ordeal is kicking themselves now as they watch from their cages in the Outside. I know their ferocity and complete control of the North makes getting to the point of eating them hard, but I would think that at least the Scalpoi figured this out?

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Well remember that the qirri we see isn't just be ash of any old nonman. It's CC himself. The most badass of all nonmen heros. Hmmmm. I wonder if it would be worth grabbing stories we have of CC from books and Four Revelations to see if we can glean personality traits and correlate them with the personality shifts experienced on the slog of slogs. :unsure:

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Or Quirri is just that good...

Very good point. Akka and Mimara have a sack full of Cleric at the end of WLW, correct? The whole "consumption of remains" theme also brings up the eating of Srancflesh, which is kind of a wildcard to me. The idea of addiction is interesting too, in regards to what Castle said about a "near-immortal army of inexhaustible Jihadists", as they'd also be, essentially, addicted to killing sranc. It's both sustenance and drug, combined with a merciless hatred of their foe. Still, I think there's going to be some kind of fucked up side-effect for eating sranc. No clue what, but it's just inherently ominous.

I feel the Qirri/Srancflesh stuff will pay-off in a huge way in TUC. The concept of it has been built up throughout TAE, and the inspiration from Dune and melange feels very strong.

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Right, that's basically what I'm trying to say. I mean either the duology is like some kind of denouement, or it deals with the last remaining story threads. Like Madness said, the "seed" of his original propably just grew into something greater that he couldn't foresee.

I think perhaps the original seed was like a nexus of story and theme ideas but not necessarily a complete narrative.

I guess sorta like GRRM having this idea for the Red Wedding or Ned's Death and then sorta filling in the before and after later but even more so.

From previous comments and such I get the feeling we are going to pretty much understand the whole picture by the end of TUC. All the pieces will be in place. And the last books will be the inevitable result of that and the completion of the overall narrative.

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isn't there a culinary/anthropophagoi aspect of the capital narrative, too?

It’s another deliberate attempt of Bakker’s to avoid sentimental genre tropes.

GRRM’s work features savouring descriptions of various meals, much in the tradition of Thomas Mann. If we view Second Apocalypse as a dialectic synthesis of these works, a Hegelian compromise between the conservative Hidden Prince trope (Jon) and the deliciously inverted Han Castorp from Zauberberg (man-comes-down-from-a-mountain-and-finds-a-world-with-meaning), then it makes sense to signify the culinary aspect of both the earlier works.

Hence, the eating of Sranc.

But Bakker would not be Bakker if he didn’t deliberately foil the ambition of his fandom to transmute the literary Mahlzeit-an-sich into a cookbook. Where GRRM’s fandom has

A Feast of Ice and Fire: The Official Game of Thrones Companion Cookbook and Mann’s readers can choose from various cookbooks, including Weihnachten bei den Buddenbrooks to imitate the dietary traditions of Lübeck’s finest declining family, no such publications are likely to appear in the wake of White Luck Warrior.

Nor would the be useful. “Thoroughly combine ground Sranc, rice, milk, egg, garlic, basil, and salt in a bowl. Form the mixture into about 16 1-1/2 inch meatballs.”

(Disclaimer: I own, and have used, both of the linked books.)

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