Bakker - "You worship suffering."

[Werthead]

Duology becoming a possible trilogy is more recent, and I'm not sure Bakker has ever said that.

He said it around the time TTT came out, and reiterated it to me in person at his 2006 London signing: with both AE and the final series he was unsure at that time if either or both would be duologies or trilogies.

[red snow]

Sranc with black Semen sauce to season.

It seems like Bakker is doing a lot more with the eating concept than Abercrombie has with his eaters - even though they are a central part of his series,in terms of magic. I think it's the second or third law from what I remember.

[Sci-2]

What do you think is the connection between damGgnation and his Gordian knot comment?

If damnation is part of his Gordian knot, maybe it will be revealed to be nothing but a human/Inchie fantasy when Alexander/Kellhus cuts it in twain. Or alternately, is the inchoroi attempt to seal the world to solve the problem of damnation akin to using a sword to untie a knot?

edit: don't know how to spell

I the knot is about choosing between two world rending horrors. Kellhus is overcome with indecision, demands that God face His creation and choose rather than passively watching as the Ur-Soul.

The way to get the God to do this is to have a witness who sees from God's vantage. So Mimara becomes the Witness of Revelation and picks between damnation and disenchantment.

But that's just one crackpot. :-)

[lokisnow]

I the knot is about choosing between two world rending horrors. Kellhus is overcome with indecision, demands that God face His creation and choose rather than passively watching as the Ur-Soul.

The way to get the God to do this is to have a witness who sees from God's vantage. So Mimara becomes the Witness of Revelation and picks between damnation and disenchantment.

But that's just one crackpot. :-)

But fucking elegant and amazing.

[Rhom]

Part of me wants to make a Goodkind joke where all the magic people are in one world and all the non-magic people are banished to another world...

Ooooh... if you did that, you could tie in Wheel of Time too by making the non-magic folks in the new world one day become the oyster headed Inchies who then come back and discover the magic world.

:leaving:

[Baztek]

I the knot is about choosing between two world rending horrors. Kellhus is overcome with indecision, demands that God face His creation and choose rather than passively watching as the Ur-Soul.

The way to get the God to do this is to have a witness who sees from God's vantage. So Mimara becomes the Witness of Revelation and picks between damnation and disenchantment.

But that's just one crackpot. :-)

You call that a crackpot? Sheeeeit. That's one of the better theories I've read.

[lokisnow]

You call that a crackpot? Sheeeeit. That's one of the better theories I've read.

Right? the idea of Mimara becoming the decisive moment/choice because Kellhus is unable to pick the better outcome is pretty awesome.

For whatever bizarre reason, it reminded me of my ASOIAF pet theory, which is the Night's Watch/Stannis sends fArya to Braavos with the banker as collateral and for her own protection. because of the trauma she's experienced at the hands of Ramsey, fArya goes to the House of Black and White and drinks from the fountain. The faceless men take her face and put it on Arya. Arya becomes fArya and is sent back to Westeros, but she can never take off the face, she must live her life as Arya but in the skin of fArya and haunted by the memories of what Ramsey did to fArya thinking it was Arya.

(there's a sort of a Whipping Boy relationship to commoner Jeyne Poole suffering so much just so one of the main character aristocrats doesn't have to suffer ;))

[Aeternum]

That he mentioned Westeros in particular is even sadder.

If you're stalking the board, at least post here.

How does one "stalk" an internet forum?

I was a "stalker" (read: random casual lurker) here for a couple months - for some mysterious reason, I like reading a forum and getting the gist of it before joining, rather than typing in the address and blindly jumping in.

[Aeternum]

TUC sounds like it'll be the most interesting of Bakker's books so far.

I'm betting that the "Inverse Fire" is some sort of neuroscientific technology that affects the brain and creates a deep-seated fear of damnation in whoever looks at it. Bakker, at least going by his blog, seems to be really into neuroscience, so this sounds like something he'd include in TUC.

Right? the idea of Mimara becoming the decisive moment/choice because Kellhus is unable to pick the better outcome is pretty awesome.

For whatever bizarre reason, it reminded me of my ASOIAF pet theory, which is the Night's Watch/Stannis sends fArya to Braavos with the banker as collateral and for her own protection. because of the trauma she's experienced at the hands of Ramsey, fArya goes to the House of Black and White and drinks from the fountain. The faceless men take her face and put it on Arya. Arya becomes fArya and is sent back to Westeros, but she can never take off the face, she must live her life as Arya but in the skin of fArya and haunted by the memories of what Ramsey did to fArya thinking it was Arya.

(there's a sort of a Whipping Boy relationship to commoner Jeyne Poole suffering so much just so one of the main character aristocrats doesn't have to suffer ;))

Links, please.

This is the most interesting, and probably most disturbing, ASOIAF theory I've heard yet.

(I also like the character Jeyne Poole, constantly suffering as she is. She reminds me of Kenny in "South Park" or a female character in Bakker's books. Theories about Jeyne are a refreshing contrast to the usual "King Jon" and "Unicorn Dany" fluff.)

[Sci-2]

But fucking elegant and amazing.

You call that a crackpot? Sheeeeit. That's one of the better theories I've read.

Thanks! I admit I'm not sure what the choices would necessarily be. I went with disenchantment - which means humans no longer have souls - vs damnation since it seemed obvious.

I also like the idea that maybe Kellhus is right in using Mimara in this way, and maybe he chickened out and couldn't do the whole Messiah thing.

How does one "stalk" an internet forum?

I was a "stalker" (read: random casual lurker) here for a couple months - for some mysterious reason, I like reading a forum and getting the gist of it before joining, rather than typing in the address and blindly jumping in.

Argh...this is why I'm unsure of not deleting posts. I realize it can be considered "cowardly editing" but at the same time it leads to a situation where it seems like I'm trying to have the last word and cutting off the conversation.

In any case, I'm happy to discuss my opinions on author-fanbase relationships if you want to create a separate thread for it. :-)

[kuenjato]

Thanks! I admit I'm not sure what the choices would necessarily be. I went with disenchantment - which means humans no longer have souls - vs damnation since it seemed obvious.

I also like the idea that maybe Kellhus is right in using Mimara in this way, and maybe he chickened out and couldn't do the whole Messiah thing.

Argh...this is why I'm unsure of not deleting posts. I realize it can be considered "cowardly editing" but at the same time it leads to a situation where it seems like I'm trying to have the last word and cutting off the conversation.

In any case, I'm happy to discuss my opinions on author-fanbase relationships if you want to create a separate thread for it. :-)

Just to save Sci a little bother ;) -- Bakker once used a sock-puppet on this forum to argue his points in a very contentious thread; he was discovered, apologized (I think), and hasn't returned (at least not as 'Pierce Inveralty'), though I'm sure he comes here to read the feedback, as this place and The Second Apocalypse forums have probably the most concentrated and in-depth analysis of his series.

Now that we've gotten somewhat concrete details on the status of the book, I'm planning my re-read for next summer, with the prediction it'll be released either then or the fall of 2014. It would be cool if there was a database devoted to the various theories that have sprouted and taken root and bloomed across the last few years, just to survey it before the release. It would be a daunting task, though, given the discussion on this forum alone...

[themerchant]

I couldn't find addicted to atrocity in the first three books. I don't have kindle editions of the latter two.

I was going to respond with a Baudrillard quote, then second guessed myself that it was probably Baudilaire, then looked it up to see which it was and found out it was Benjamin. :(

"Addicted to atrocity" is a line Akka uses in the Judging Eye when talking about Non-Men when he is sitting "drinking" with Sarl, Cleric and the Captain.

Not sure if that's any help but i recall reading it.

[Callan S.]

The way to get the God to do this is to have a witness who sees from God's vantage. So Mimara becomes the Witness of Revelation and picks between damnation and disenchantment.

How do you choose disenchantment?

A world that had magicy stuff but it's gone now HAD magicy stuff. And if the rules for magic have somehow been removed - well, if it had rules, how magicy was it to begin with?

Disenchantment is a hooked line with a dot at the bottom

?

[Callan S.]

(there's a sort of a Whipping Boy relationship to commoner Jeyne Poole suffering so much just so one of the main character aristocrats doesn't have to suffer ;))

I'm not familair with the character - there's a character called Jeyne Poole?

Any characters called Dea N. Aye?

[Happy Ent]

I'm not familair with the character - there's a character called Jeyne Poole?

Jeyne Poole is GRRM’s Serwë.

[Aeternum]

Jeyne Poole is GRRM’s Serwë.

Yeah, pretty much.

I can see why Bakker has gotten more misogyny flames than GRRM ever did. For better or worse, GRRM has a whole lot of female characters in his books, and the "eternal rape-victim" archetype is a relatively minor character in the bigger picture. OTOH, she's one out of two female characters in Bakker's first three books. I imagine ASOIAF would've gotten the same criticism, if its entire female cast was Jeyne Poole and Doreah.

[Sci-2]

How do you choose disenchantment?

A world that had magicy stuff but it's gone now HAD magicy stuff. And if the rules for magic have somehow been removed - well, if it had rules, how magicy was it to begin with?

Disenchantment is a hooked line with a dot at the bottom

?

I don't know if I understand this reasoning - by which I mean a rephrasing/elaboration would be helpful. The part about magic not having rules seems to contradict everything we've been given so far.

I guess you'd need a miracle - by which I mean an actions that transcends the rules - to disenchant the world. This would presumably work because God apparently dreams up the Bakkerverse yet is also the sum total of consciousness possessing entities. So the rules of reality are dependent on the God as the ground of Being.

[Kalbear]

So has it been brought up yet how the model of the gods in the outside and how they relate to the God (at least as it is explained to esme) is very similar to the bbt hypothesis and the current ways of thinking about the accidental consciousness that humans have?

[Sci-2]

So has it been brought up yet how the model of the gods in the outside and how they relate to the God (at least as it is explained to esme) is very similar to the bbt hypothesis and the current ways of thinking about the accidental consciousness that humans have?

I feel like it's come up before, but whether that's here or on Second Apocalypse I don't know.

[Francis Buck]

So has it been brought up yet how the model of the gods in the outside and how they relate to the God (at least as it is explained to esme) is very similar to the bbt hypothesis and the current ways of thinking about the accidental consciousness that humans have?

I'd like to see this expanded on, as I've never noticed BBT applied specifically to the gods/God (though it certainly may have been considering the breadth of theories proposed both here and on SA). I'm also not especially well read on BBT aside from a few snippets here and there.