Bakker - "You worship suffering."

[Callan S.]

Because they didn't. They killed him when he was the Aspect-Emperor. That is how it has always been and that is how it is happening right now and how it will happen, if the WLW's perspective is any indication. You can't change that sort of thing, change is illusory. Everything happens (is happening/has happened whatever the fuck) at once.

I find the whole thing a bit of a mindfuck tbh.

Pfft, that just sounds like regular time! It's like if I said I'm in hypertime and I could look at the lotto results from next week, but I didn't.

[Callan S.]

I think the gods look at time the way a layman sees a painting. They apprehend the Whole but could not give you an accurate account of the brush strokes, types of paints used, etc.

To them, picking out Kellhus before he was born would be like me trying to figure out which part of Starry Night Van Gogh finished first.

That sounds like seeing things the same way a reader sees the story.

On the thousandfold thought, I think it's cloud computing. The escape of 'this dwarfing frame'. The heretical conversations between Kellhus and Proyas is two parts of the (conditioned) cloud communicating.

[Sci-2]

That sounds like seeing things the same way a reader sees the story.

I don't know about that, as stories are usually experienced in a linear progression.

But I actually dislike all the "hyper-time" stuff, it just confuses the story.

[Magic 8 Ball]

OK, I have a general question (in answering it remember I just finished TJE, no WLW yet)

This is kind of a dork question...

The original Homonid inhabitants of Earwa were the "Emwarma" or something like that, and were completely enslaved by Nonmen.

All current Homonid inhabitants of Earwa are descendants of a migration/invasion that occurred well after Nonmen contact with the Inchies, and around the time of the composition of the Tusk, correct?

How in the hell could these people have differentiated into races as disparate as the Norsirai, Ketyai, Nilnameshi, and Zeumi within the span of 4000 years?

I could see separate language families developing, different ethnicities and substantial differences in culture, but getting everything from Scandinavians to Sub-Saharn Africans from a founder population in this space of time seems improbable.

Thoughts/corrections of any errors I am making here?

[lokisnow]

well there's always my crackpot theory that humans are the inchoroi experiments on emwamma. That is to say that humans:emwamma::sranc:nonmen. That's right, I'm saying humans are sranc.

or earwa people aren't even human, we just think they are because projection/bias. They're really avatar cats.

[unJon]

It's because those five races already existed across the mountains when they came over. Four of the tribes came through the Breaking of the Gates. All in TTT glossary.

[Sci-2]

@No-Avatar:

Evolution in the Bakkerverse is one of the things we've wondered about.

It doesn't exactly fit with the fantasy setting but I actually think the Inchies will tell us more about how they evolved to be damned in TUC.

[Castel]

@No-Avatar:

Evolution in the Bakkerverse is one of the things we've wondered about.

It doesn't exactly fit with the fantasy setting but I actually think the Inchies will tell us more about how they evolved to be damned in TUC.

By fucking corpses and leaving the toilet seat up? (Mostly the latter) eta: On a more serious note I'm willing to bet money on the answer simply being "Semantic apocalypse".

Do we have any reason to assume that evolution is different? Knowledge of damnation doesn't seem to yield any great advantage in the physical world and sorcery as a useful tool seems to have come into existence relatively late, especially for men who always had the Chorae and social stigma as a counter.

[themerchant]

I must say it's really weird to hear Bakker say this is the final book pretty much, that's not what i was expecting.

For instance this interview he says 8 or 9 books, Aspect Emperor will be 3, and the sequel to Aspect will be at least 2. Round about the 4:30 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht5Pyeb8HPU

[kuenjato]

I must say it's really weird to hear Bakker say this is the final book pretty much, that's not what i was expecting.

For instance this interview he says 8 or 9 books, Aspect Emperor will be 3, and the sequel to Aspect will be at least 2. Round about the 4:30 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht5Pyeb8HPU

Where is he saying that this is the final book? In his blog Bakker stated he'd run through his original storyline, developed in the mid-80's, but by implication there's still the final duology/trilogy in the works. I think his lack of commerciality has made him contemplate his career, but it hasn't meant the final series is dead in the water.

At least, it friggin' better not. WLW felt like the middle book of the entire planned series, not a penultimate volume.

[Sci-2]

I think the final two volumes will be published.

Possibly not for awhile though.

@Castel:

Evolution seems like it was the same, though Bakker did mention that apprehension of the onta corresponds to other intellectual traits. So magic came about via natural selection, but possibly in a round about way.

Though there could also be teleological principles at work. There are, after all, a few philosophers Bakker could draw from to shape such metaphysical possibilities.

[lokisnow]

If you think about it, it would make sense if he originally conceived of the two series as a single trilogy.

First book ends with the Circumfix.

Second book ends with Cil Aujus

Third book ends with Golgotteranth

[Francis Buck]

That interview's pretty good (seen it before, but not since I first read the series). It's a shame that his internet persona comes off the way it sometimes does, because he really seems like a pretty humble and down-to-earth guy in real life.

As to the emwama/tribes stuff, I've questioned before why it is that if the tribes came through the Kayarsus largely fully formed, then why did they go and inhabit regions that correspond (climate-wise) to those they'd have hailed from originally (I.E., lighter skin and hair up north, darker down south, Asian-esque peoples to the east, etc.). I suppose one could suggest that they just went to regions they were familiar with, though it's a bit shaky.

ETA: @Sci

But I actually dislike all the "hyper-time" stuff, it just confuses the story.

I'm not sure how I feel about it myself, but I'm curious to see how everything plays out with the time stuff. I'm inclined to believe that Bakker planned for it relatively well, and as I mentioned earlier, hard information is still rather scant in regards to the how the gods work, what they actually are, where they came from, and the nature of the Outside. If he pulls it off then I think it could be a really cool layer to the various metaphysical concepts at work in the series. There's definitely a number of things that need to be at least partially explained before I can totally buy into it though.

[Magic 8 Ball]

As to the emwama/tribes stuff, I've questioned before why it is that if the tribes came through the Kayarsus largely fully formed, then why did they go and inhabit regions that correspond (climate-wise) to those they'd have hailed from originally (I.E., lighter skin and hair up north, darker down south, Asian-esque peoples to the east, etc.). I suppose one could suggest that they just went to regions they were familiar with, though it's a bit shaky.

Now that I know it was multiple tribes that were already distinct races, it actually makes sense. The first imperative for these people would be to go where they know how to practice agriculture.

It's the same reason that Western Kansas, for example, is full of Volga Germans familiar with growing wheat on a semi-arid plain.

There would have been fewer "defections", i.e. Zeumi staying in the North due to the stronger tribal/familial bonds and obligations at the time.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Just started watching that interview and discovered his name is pronounced "Baker" not "Backer". Mind blown.

[themerchant]

Where is he saying that this is the final book? In his blog Bakker stated he'd run through his original storyline, developed in the mid-80's, but by implication there's still the final duology/trilogy in the works. I think his lack of commerciality has made him contemplate his career, but it hasn't meant the final series is dead in the water.

At least, it friggin' better not. WLW felt like the middle book of the entire planned series, not a penultimate volume.

I must have mis-read it, in my head i had it as the end of the story. The reason for that being the following sentence about how he will die happy (well with a shit-eating grin). So if he can die happy now then surely the story he wants to write is also done.

Going back and reading it again i see what you're saying. I thought the third triology/duology was part of his orignial idea,most likely falsely, because of the interview i posted.

[Francis Buck]

And he seemed like kind of a decent fellow too and not the the enemy of all decency, too, huh?

I don't know, I think I might have caught the glint of a remorseless misogynist behind those smoky-lensed glasses.

[Castel]

For some reason, I just had this mental image of someone changing their av to that version of Bakker looking into the camera with a "WHAT DO YOU SEE?" custom title and posting in as many threads as possible. It would drive people absolutely batty.

Sorely tempted to try this. Assuming of course that I can find a decent picture of the guy .Bakkerspeak would also be called for, but I suck at it.

EDIT: So close, yet so far. FabioBakker would be an awesome avatar if it was thrice as big.

Just started watching that interview and discovered his name is pronounced "Baker" not "Backer". Mind blown.

Yup, I'm a bit annoyed by that interview because ever since I saw it I know I'm pronouncing it wrong. I just say fuck it and keep saying it wrong. It's easier and it's probably never going to make a difference.

[Callan S.]

And he seemed like kind of a decent fellow too and not the the enemy of all decency, too, huh?

That interview. He wore no pants.

[Callan S.]

well there's always my crackpot theory that humans are the inchoroi experiments on emwamma. That is to say that humans:emwamma::sranc:nonmen. That's right, I'm saying humans are sranc.

or earwa people aren't even human, we just think they are because projection/bias. They're really avatar cats.

I don't buy the inchie creation thing, because from how things appear, that would have added more souls. And more souls than the RAM can take overloads the computer and it bluescreens into the one hundred.