Daenerys's Blackest Sin, Will she Suffer for It?

[Audrey Arryn]

She doesn't have to "become a freak and start burning everyone in front of her." I'm saying that even if she just does what she's done up to this point -- allowing for torture, arbitrary executions, etc. -- but it involves people we're invested in, opinion of her might change.

Just some shots I've seen taken at Arianne over what she thought about Dany and Viserys in the chapter posted on Martin's site.

Oh ok

Thats possible since she is going to be at war when she is in westeros most likely.

[LordStoneheart]

Vengeance and justice are seen as the same thing.

Because they are. One is just seen as less emotionally involved, which it is not always true.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Because they are. One is just seen as less emotionally involved, which it is not always true.

They really, really aren't. Justice by its very nature is supposed to be blind and about impartiality, actually correcting wrongs in a rational and proportionate way. Vengeance is based entirely on an emotional response that may or may not actually correct a wrong and may or may not be proportionate.

That characters within the story see them as the same does not mean that they objectively are.

[LordStoneheart]

They really, really aren't. Justice by its very nature is supposed to be blind and about impartiality, actually correcting wrongs in a rational and proportionate way. Vengeance is based entirely on an emotional response that may or may not actually correct a wrong and may or may not be proportionate.

That characters within the story see them as the same does not mean that they objectively are.

That's the word you should have italicized, and again, it rarely is the bold and often times is the second bold

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That's the word you should have italicized, and again, it rarely is the bold and often times is the second bold

I'm not talking about a normative definition. Objectively, justice and vengeance are not the same thing. That they often get mixed up is the error of the foolish saps who erroneously conflate them, not any issue with the definitions themselves.

[LordStoneheart]

In that case, Justice rarely exists in this world or our own, and the basic premise of both concepts arise from the same place; the need to punish wrongs (depending on who is being the judge.)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

In that case, Justice rarely exists in this world or our own, and the basic premise of both concepts arise from the same place; the need to punish wrongs (depending on who is being the judge.)

And the punishment of those wrongs, according to justice, must be fair, rational and proportionate to the wrong incurred. That is not the same as vengeance, which is not necessarily fair, rational or proportionate.

Like I said, if justice is applied incorrectly or looks too much like vengeance, that's the fault of the people carrying it out. The separate definitions themselves are perfectly sound. And just about all of what Dany does to her mustache-twirling foes in Slaver's Bay cannot in good conscience be termed "justice."

[The Idiots Lantern]

The line between "justice" and "vengence" does indeed exist. It's also so subjective that you can debate it forever and not get anywhere.

For example, in our supposedly just, modern, enlightened, law-abiding world, the jails usually have to keep the child molesters in solitary confinement, because if housed with the standard population, the other inmates will kill them. Is that justice or vengeance? What about if this person raped YOUR kid. They went to jail, the other prisoners learned about the crime and killed the rapist. Would your opinion be different? Who really gets to decide what's "justice" and what's "vengeance" in that case?

[Angalin]

TWoW info belongs in spoiler tags or the relevant forum, not out in the open here.

Closing this for length.