Daenerys's Blackest Sin, Will she Suffer for It?

[Aethermancer]

Not, it was MMR witchcraft that put him in that condition, sure he could has died of fever but MMR made him a vegetable.

After MMD told Dany, "This is not a good idea. Better to let him die. It would be worse than death."

She wasn't exactly shy in basically telling Dany, hey I'll do it, but you aren't going to like it.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

How is Dany burning Mirri any different from lets say Jon executing Janos Slynt? Both were instrumental in the death of a member of their executioner's family and both executions were driven at least in part by revenge. Does anyone on this forum think Jon killing Janos was a giant sin, I don't think so.

Ned didn't lead an army to rape, pillage, enslave, and murder everyone in Slynt's village. False equivalency.

EDIT: To be clear, I am NOT arguing MMD was in the good guy here. I am saying both were wrong but had sympathetic reasons for doing it.

These Dany haters don't know what else to accuse the poor Queen. Dany was right to burn the witch.

Actually, there's many, but that would be off topic. For the record, you don't have to hate a character to acknowledge they did something bad or that something bad done against them was justified and/or sympathetic. You just have to accept the story is more complex than "X is GOOD!!!! Anyone who opposes her is EVIL!!!!!!"

Hell, I named myself after a guy who said is issue with murdering children is price. Some of us OK with villains.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Dany's blackest sin, in general, is self-righteous cruelty. She likes to see people suffer, if she thinks that they deserve to suffer.

This in a nutshell. And people applaud her for it.

MMD's execution is definitely one of the many Dany-isms that feels good the first time around but is absolutely appalling in hindsight.

Minor quibble with the OP: I actually do think the horse subbed in for Drogo, which explains his blank state. Rhaego's life paid for the life in the EGGS, and Mirri's death is what caused them to hatch. Two-step process.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

i think a lot of people would have reservations about murdering an innocent unborn child...

I must have missed the part where MMD told Jorah to bring Dany into the tent. She explicitly said NOT TO come into the tent. MMD may not be completely innocent here, but there's plenty of idiocy to go around. And seeing what Rhaego would have become, just another pillaging warlord, perhaps MMD did the world a favor.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

How is Dany burning Mirri any different from lets say Jon executing Janos Slynt? Both were instrumental in the death of a member of their executioner's family and both executions were driven at least in part by revenge. Does anyone on this forum think Jon killing Janos was a giant sin, I don't think so.

This is complete nonsense. Janos Slynt swore an oath to the Night's Watch and repeatedly refused to follow the orders of the duly elected lord commander, a crime that merits the death penalty. MMD swore no oaths of fealty to Dany, was not legally obligated to her in any way and was held against her will. The two have absolutely nothing in common. Janos was also, by the way, given a pretty quick death. Come back to me when Jon burns someone alive as a means of execution.

[Rhymes with Weak]

I must have missed the part here MMD told Jorah to bring Dany into the tent. She explicitly said NOT TO come into the tent. MMD may not be completely innocent here, but there's plenty of idiocy to go around. And seeing what Rhaego would have become, just another pillaging warlord, perhaps MMD did the world a favor.

The HBO show does sum up that point rather nicely, everyone seems to forget that Rhaego was supposed to "mount the world", as in rape all rape-able things and kill anything else that comes in the way of said rape.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Not, it was MMR witchcraft that put him in that condition, sure he could has died of fever but MMR made him a vegetable.

Where are you getting this? Drogo got wounded, she told him not to drink and to use the poultice, he ignored her, the wound became infected and he died. It was his own goddamn fault.

[The Great Walrus]

Where are you getting this? Drogo got wounded, she told him not to drink and to use the poultice, he ignored her, the wound became infected and he died. It was his own goddamn fault.

It appears he is confusing Show canon with book canon, seeing as that was the show's version of events.

[Plume]

People seem to forget that Dany is essentially a young girl (unless they are talking about her liaisons with Daario but let's not get into that.) She has just seen her husband, the only person who holds 40,000 screaming Dothraki in check, fall from his horse, dying.

She knows that it means either death or a life spent in Vaes Dothrak. Imagine you were in this position and Mirri Maz Daur, a woman you BELIEVE you have saved/helped and who THANKS Dany for saving her, comes along and offers a way. Despite her warnings, you are going to take this option. Dany has grown to love Drogo, she wants him to live and this is the most feasible option. What MMD did will always remain to me a sickening act akin to the RW, because she betrayed the trust of a woman who saved her.

I do not find the woman sympathetic at all. I was damn near dancing when I read what Dany does to her!

*and calm* Sorry, that's only my opinion I realise! :) feel free to criticise but I am not trying to be hostile there!

Why is the fact that she's a young girl brought up whenever there's an argument against her? or any other character of her age for that matter...

Anyway, I'm not a Dany hater but I stand by what I stated in this thread. She had warnings, and she chose to ignore them. As you said, she wanted him to live, well...He was alive. LOL.

Imo, this is not comparable to the red wedding, given that MMD warned her that death would be CLEANER. What did she expect then the outcome would be?

These Dany haters don't know what else to accuse the poor Queen. Dany was right to burn the witch.

It's because of comments like this one that one has to state not to be a hater before saying arguments against a character... Stop it please.

[TheMysteriousOne]

These Dany haters don't know what else to accuse the poor Queen. Dany was right to burn the witch.

These kind of statements don't make your arguments any better, nor do they compel the people that you're arguing with to agree with you.

[The Idiots Lantern]

I like how this is a debatable topic. Mirri had her reasons for doing what she did, and clearly felt perfectly justified for it. Dany too was desperate to protect the one person in the whole world she loved. Truely, I think, (in fact since we were in her head at that moment, I know) that the idea that the life to be traded was her son's never entered her head. That idea just never occurred to her. Maybe you could argue that she didn't want it to occur to her, that she intentionally blinded herself to the possibility but I doubt it. She wasn't guarded enough in that moment to be concealing anything from anyone, let alone herself.

Personally, I know I'm not above brutal revenge when someone I love has suffered horribly. It's nice to talk about mercy. It's a very high concept. If pinch came to punch, if someone'd hurt my loved ones, I know I wouldn't live up to that ideal. The person dies, and they die in the nastiest way I can come up with.

Jon has never faced anything quite like what Dany faced from Mirri. The person Jon beheaded had just attacked the Nights Watch, which is not the same as if he'd personally worked evil sorcery to kill Jon's family. I wonder what he would have done if he'd ever had Joffery, or Walder Frey, or Lord Bolton at his mercy...

The responsible thing, probably. How dull.

[RoamingRonin]

It appears he is confusing Show canon with book canon, seeing as that was the show's version of events.

The book implies she was poisoning him from the very start.

I like how this is a debatable topic. Mirri had her reasons for doing what she did, and clearly felt perfectly justified for it. Dany too was desperate to protect the one person in the whole world she loved. Truely, I think, (in fact since we were in her head at that moment, I know) that the idea that the life to be traded was her son's never entered her head. That idea just never occurred to her. Maybe you could argue that she didn't want it to occur to her, that she intentionally blinded herself to the possibility but I doubt it. She wasn't guarded enough in that moment to be concealing anything from anyone, let alone herself.

Really, now?

"You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse."

"No," Mirri Maz Duur said. "That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price."

Had she? Had she? If I look back I am lost. "The price was paid," Dany said. "The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid." She rose from her cushions. "Where is Khal Drogo? Show him to me, godswife, maegi, bloodmage, whatever you are. Show me Khal Drogo. Show me what I bought with my son's life."

[falcotron]

What Mirri Maz Duur does is evil and the fate of child killers is death. Look at what happens to Theon for killing the crofters boys.

Theon is still alive.

In fact, I can't think of any actual or attempted child killer who's died so far. And I can think of plenty who are still alive—Ramsey, Melisandre, Jaime, probably Sandor, even Gregor is sort of alive. Maybe some of the slavers involved in killed the slave children as a warning to Dany are dead, but I'm sure most of them are still alive and either working for the Harpy or camped outside the city.

Would Cat be evil for killing Cersei for murdering Ned and her children? No

Which of her children did Cersei kill again? You're not blaming her for the RW, are you?

On the other hand: Is she evil for killing Stevon Frey's lackwit son because his grandfather killed her son?

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

Ned didn't lead an army to rape, pillage, enslave, and murder everyone in Slynt's village. False equivalency.

EDIT: To be clear, I am NOT arguing MMD was in the good guy here. I am saying both were wrong but had sympathetic reasons for doing it.

Actually, there's many, but that would be off topic. For the record, you don't have to hate a character to acknowledge they did something bad or that something bad done against them was justified and/or sympathetic. You just have to accept the story is more complex than "X is GOOD!!!! Anyone who opposes her is EVIL!!!!!!"

Hell, I named myself after a guy who said is issue with murdering children is price. Some of us OK with villains.

When i'll see any of the Stannis cultist admit that burning people and trying to kill children is an evil sin then we can accept that this is a reasonable discussion.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

When i'll see any of the Stannis cultist admit that burning people and trying to kill children is an evil sin then we can accept that this is a reasonable discussion.

Do you have any quotes or examples of Stannis fans saying that burning people isn't morally wrong? And can there ever be any discussion about Dany or Stannis where the other one isn't dragged into it? "But so-and-so does it too!" stopped working as an excuse in the 3rd grade.

[Nikolay]

MMD killed one nasty genocidal warlord and aborted another future one. She should have been given a medal to be honest.

[falcotron]

When i'll see any of the Stannis cultist admit that burning people and trying to kill children is an evil sin then we can accept that this is a reasonable discussion.

What about ignoring the "cultists".

There are plenty of people who think that what Dany did was evil, and what MMD did was at least far from pure good, and also that what Stannis at the very least has allowed to be done in his name was evil. And there's also good in both characters. In fact, that's kind of the heart of the book; real people do both good and bad things, because of an internal struggle that never ends, not because they're good guys or bad guys.

So, you can talk to the people who actually get the book, or you can stand back and throw stones at fanatics who aren't worth talking to; why choose the latter?

[The Idiots Lantern]

Really, now?

Yes really.

Had she? Had she?

Note the repetition. Why is she repeating this to herself, in her own head?

It's out of horror. In retrospect she can't think of a reason why the possibility of this particular price WOULDN'T have occurred to her when she was telling Mirri to do whatever it took to save her husband. She thinks that she herself was willing to die if that was the price required. Yet we were in her head in that moment and we know it DIDN'T occur to her.

Why not? Did she genuinely not care about the life of her child? I doubt that; it was the threat to her child that changed Viserys from her brother into a drunken raving madman. She'd never have willingly traded him away, even for Drogo. Right?

...That mere possibility is too awful to contemplate, so "if I look back I am lost." She can either keep moving forward or let the past's misery and grief swallow her forever.

And after this, people still try and claim Dany's a little psychopath. The mere possibility that she'd intentionally let harm befall her son is literally too awful for her to even think about.

[Florina Laufeyson]

This in a nutshell. And people applaud her for it.

MMD's execution is definitely one of the many Dany-isms that feels good the first time around but is absolutely appalling in hindsight.

Minor quibble with the OP: I actually do think the horse subbed in for Drogo, which explains his blank state. Rhaego's life paid for the life in the EGGS, and Mirri's death is what caused them to hatch. Two-step process.

Pretty much. Didnt Mirri tell Dany not to enter the tent? I seem to remember that.

She sent her handmaids away. “Go with them, Silver Lady,” Mini Maz Duur told her.

“I will stay,” Dany said. “The man took me under the stars and gave life to the child inside me. I will not leave him.”

“You must. Once I begin to sing, no one must enter this tent. My song will wake powers old and dark. The dead will dance here this night. No living man must look on them.”

And...

“The Lamb Woman knows the secrets of the birthing bed,” Irri said. “She said so, I heard her.”

No, she shouted, or perhaps she only thought it, for no whisper of sound escaped her lips. She was being carried. Her eyes opened to gaze up at a flat dead sky, black and bleak and starless. Please, no. The sound of Mirri Maz Duur’s voice grew louder, until it filled the world. The shapes! she screamed. The dancers!

Ser Jorah carried her inside the tent.

Nice job breaking it, Jorah.

Problem is though, Dany started having labor pains a bit before she entered the tent, but Dany knew there was bad juju going on in there...

Perhaps because she entered the tent, Rhaego became a part of the eggs. (i think the eggs were in there) And Drogo's mind was swapped with the horse's.

Warning: Theres a crack in my pot: I actually think that Viserys' death had something to do with the eggs too, and Drogo's. Viserys died first, then Rhaego, and finally Drogo. But it seems like Drogo's spirit died before his body. Its pretty wiggy, whats going on in there. I hope GRRM explains this one someday.

As for the actual OP question, i think Dany has suffered for what was done to Mirri. Rhaego died, Dany's womb is tainted, and it looks like shes going to lose two of her "children". But i do think theres more to come. Dany's actions in the first book are starting to catch up with her a bit. Dany is now back in the Dothraki Sea and may face the Dosh Khaleen again. Viserys' death has reached ears that will prove to be dangerous to Dany. Illyrio is still plotting, etc.

[RoamingRonin]

Warning: Theres a crack in my pot: I actually think that Viserys' death had something to do with the eggs too, and Drogo's. Viserys died first, then Rhaego, and finally Drogo. But it seems like Drogo's spirit died before his body. Its pretty wiggy, whats going on in there. I hope GRRM explains this one someday.

Isn't there a chapter where Dany thinks/says this? That Viserys's death helped hatch the eggs. I'd look but I can't even remember which book...