Jo(a)n Snow?

[Light a wight tonight]

There is speculation that Raegar wanted to father a female child when he abducted/eloped with Lyanna, so what would the ramifications be if that had happened, and Ned brought the girl back to Winterfell with him? Beyond her not winding up at the Wall, of course.

Is Catelyn more accepting of a girl, who wouldn't present a potential challenge to her sons for inheriting Winterfell? Or would she see the girl as a rival for Ned's affections? How would Sansa and Arya get along with "Joan"? Would she be betrothed to some minor Stark bannerman's younger son?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I do believe that if Jon was a girl Cat wouldn’t be so bitter but I think that he could easily be Falia Snow. Yes she wouldn’t be a threat but she had to have something to do and making her North’s Falia seems very possible.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I do believe that if Jon was a girl Cat wouldn’t be so bitter but I think that he could easily be Falia Snow. Yes she wouldn’t be a threat but she had to have something to do and making her North’s Falia seems very possible.

OT: Is that Jeremy Flynn from his role on Ripper Street? I really enjoyed that series and am looking forward to it's return, I'd read somewhere that a second season was filmed.

I do think Rhaegar was thinking perhaps this child he needed to have would or should be a girl? Unless, all his rereading of the prophecies changed his mind on it? I still think Cat would have had trouble with Ned bringing a girl, but perhaps not quite as much? Alot of Cat's problems also stemmed from Ned's seeming protection of the mother, and I'm sure.......depending on what the girl looked like, how the relationships with the kids and the girl turned out, would enter into the equation, but I'm not certain that the idea of a girl not being such a threat to Cat's sons would make that much of a big difference. Maybe a small difference, but alot of her problems stemmed from the mere existance of said child, and said child in her home.

[BitsOfBrains]

If they had had a female child Rhaegar would have dumped Lyanna and eloped with his newborn female child. Targs are all inbreeders and sickos, as far as I can tell.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

OT: Is that Jeremy Flynn from his role on Ripper Street? I really enjoyed that series and am looking forward to it's return, I'd read somewhere that a second season was filmed.

Yes he is Jerome Flynn aka Bennett Drake aka GoT's Bronn. I also enjoyed S1 but I have to wait since S2 become available in DVD. I think it will be late 2013 early 2014 or something I am not sure.

[Minsc]

It would be interesting, as while Catelyn might be more accepting of Joan's presence (as I don't know if it is common to foster girls out) but I doubt she would want to hang out with Ned's bastard. Therefore, ensuring a situation where she still tries mostly to keep her distance away from Joan though it wouldn't be a Falia Flowers situation.

In how, she gets along with her sisters relates to what Joan's personality is in this scenario.

[The Witch King of Braavos]

OT: Is that Jeremy Flynn from his role on Ripper Street? I really enjoyed that series and am looking forward to it's return, I'd read somewhere that a second season was filmed.

I do think Rhaegar was thinking perhaps this child he needed to have would or should be a girl? Unless, all his rereading of the prophecies changed his mind on it? I still think Cat would have had trouble with Ned bringing a girl, but perhaps not quite as much? Alot of Cat's problems also stemmed from Ned's seeming protection of the mother, and I'm sure.......depending on what the girl looked like, how the relationships with the kids and the girl turned out, would enter into the equation, but I'm not certain that the idea of a girl not being such a threat to Cat's sons would make that much of a big difference. Maybe a small difference, but alot of her problems stemmed from the mere existance of said child, and said child in her home.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure her main issue was with the existence of the bastard and the living proof of Ned's infidelity(think that's the right word).

.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Yes he is Jerome Flynn aka Bennett Drake aka GoT's Bronn. I also enjoyed S1 but I have to wait since S2 become available in DVD. I think it will be late 2013 early 2014 or something I am not sure.

LOL, and thanks. I knew there was something wrong with his name the way I typed it, I just couldn't figure it out, was going to google, got distracted and just posted. Jerome IS a very cool name. I love his character on both shows, many similarities in the soldier/sellsword type, but personality wise, much different.

I'm not sure what's going on with the show, here, on BBCAmerica, but I would definately buy the dvds if the show isn't aired here in the US like S1 was, I enjoyed it. As I recall, it was just finishing up, Ripper Street, a little before GOT started earlier this year. I guess I need to google on that, too.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure her main issue was with the existence of the bastard and the living proof of Ned's infidelity(think that's the right word).

.

Exactly, that and the fact that Cat took Ned's silence on the mother as 'protection and love,' somehow. Maybe Ned just knew he was a terrible liar, and the less said, the better? LOL

[Godsbraid]

Well, if Jon was a girl, (s)he would have spent a lot more time with Sansa and Arya - and by extension Cat. Because Jon was a boy, he and Cat would not have had to be around each other all the time as he would have been training swords/riding/etc. with Robb.

I think Cat would have had to accepted or rejected Joan earlier than she did with Jon, simply because they would have been expected to spend more time together. By the time aGoT begins, Joan might have had an engagement to some lesser Lord/knight, so instead of sending “her” to the Wall, Cat could just have insisted of marrying Joan off to get her out of WInterfell.

[Light a wight tonight]

Exactly, that and the fact that Cat took Ned's silence on the mother as 'protection and love,' somehow. Maybe Ned just knew he was a terrible liar, and the less said, the better? LOL

As a male I may be reading Cat's views wrong, but IMO she was more resentful of Ned not naming Jon's mother than of Jon's actual presence. It's as though she felt that Ned didn't trust her or something of that nature. She felt more betrayed by that than Ned's supposed infidelity.

[Minsc]

As a male I may be reading Cat's views wrong, but IMO she was more resentful of Ned not naming Jon's mother than of Jon's actual presence. It's as though she felt that Ned didn't trust her or something of that nature. She felt more betrayed by that than Ned's supposed infidelity.

She does directly mention that she is able to understand a man's needs in war(thus the infidelity), but the part that she hated was Ned bringing Jon home and raising him like a trueborn. Thus, in a way flaunting to the rest of the kingdom his infidelity and giving off a sense of disrespect towards her as his wife and mother of their children.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

As a male I may be reading Cat's views wrong, but IMO she was more resentful of Ned not naming Jon's mother than of Jon's actual presence. It's as though she felt that Ned didn't trust her or something of that nature. She felt more betrayed by that than Ned's supposed infidelity.

I do think a big bulk of Cat's problem did stem from the mother and Ned not naming her and refusing to discuss her. It seems the lack of any knowledge about her or about Ned's feelings about her, about the baby, etc......allowed Cat's imagination to run wild.

I also think Cat allowed the way the society viewed bastards as an excuse for and to herself, she fell back on the stigma of a bastard to excuse her treatment of Jon himself, somehow. (I'm not sure I'm wording that right, LOL). I would get more and more angry with Cat for not easing up on Jon, for not seeing how her own children loved the hell out of him, minus Sansa to some extent (she seemed not to be unkind, but quickly influenced by Cat to put Jon in his 'place,' in her own heart and mind the minute she learned what 'bastard' meant), and for Cat not learning anything as time went on. All those losses Cat suffered (real and mistaken, the boys for example) you'd think she might have FINALLY learned something, and respected the fact that to Robb, Jon was his brother, but no......she remained petty and clung to the manner in which her society excused her actions. And, I'm a Cat fan, but this is something about her, as time and losses mounted, that really pisses me off about her.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

She does directly mention that she is able to understand a man's needs in war(thus the infidelity), but the part that she hated was Ned bringing Jon home and raising him like a trueborn. Thus, in a way flaunting to the rest of the kingdom his infidelity and giving off a sense of disrespect towards her as his wife and mother of their children.

I get that part of it, but I think that Cat allowed her imagination about 'the woman' to color her judgement. Instead of admiring Ned for standing up and all, and instead of taking her dissatisfaction about it out on Ned, she took it out on Jon, that is what bugs me about it. Jon didn't ask for any of this, to be born, to be raised under her roof, it seems Ned and his secrets are the issue, as well as Ned raising him under their roof, but instead she decides to never bring it up to Ned again, and takes it all out on a child.

What really made me mad, as mentioned in my previous post, is that after all the loss and death that Cat suffers, real and mistaken, she STILL learned nothing. She used the society's norms as her shield, for her awful behavior.

[Minsc]

I get that part of it, but I think that Cat allowed her imagination about 'the woman' to color her judgement. Instead of admiring Ned for standing up and all, and instead of taking her dissatisfaction about it out on Ned, she took it out on Jon, that is what bugs me about it. Jon didn't ask for any of this, to be born, to be raised under her roof, it seems Ned and his secrets are the issue, as well as Ned raising him under their roof, but instead she decides to never bring it up to Ned again, and takes it all out on a child.

What really made me mad, as mentioned in my previous post, is that after all the loss and death that Cat suffers, real and mistaken, she STILL learned nothing. She used the society's norms as her shield, for her awful behavior.

Just want to mention, that besides say something nasty once while in extreme grief it appears that the worse she did to him was just give him cold looks and ensure that in special circumstances that her children's status was established. Which, while not the nicest this is still hardly some overly terrible action.

Moreover, I don't get your part about "Instead of admiring Ned for standing up and all" what exactly did Ned do that she admire?

[Luthien Targaryen]

I dunno, I think Catelyn's problem with Jon is two-fold.

1) She sees Jon as a threat to Robb and Bran. If something were to happen to Robb, Ned might be tempted to ask his good pal King Bob to legitimise Jon and make Jon his heir. After all, Jon looks more like Ned than Robb does, or in fact any of Cat's boys, Ned might simply favour Jon because Jon looks more like him. Plus there might be all those embarrassing rumours about her and Littlefinger to silence of there was a fight for Winterfell between Jon and Robb (or Bran), Jon and Arya look like Starks, conveniently in Jon's case, but Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon all look so much like Catelyn that there's no telling who their father was. Catelyn might fear a power struggle between her children and "the bastard" should Ned die unexpectedly.

2)She's simply jealous of the "other woman". Jon is living proof, in her face, 24 hours a day, seven days a week that Ned loved another woman. OK, she can tell herself that she shouldn't be surprised, since their marriage was arranged and besides, it was actually arranged to be between her and his elder brother, but I thin , being a well written character, she think logically and feel irrationally about the same thing. She knows she shouldn't be surprised, but she can't help feeling hurt. Did he know Jon's mother before he married me? Would he have married Jon's mother if he'd have been able? Is she still alive? Does he love her more than me?

Obviously if Jon had been Joan (or Visenya depending on who you ask) Catelyn would not have seen her as a threat to her children's inheritance. A hindrance perhaps that they'd have to fork out an extra dowry, but presumably they could have found a good and advantageous marriage for Joan Snow and it might have worked out for the Stark families benefit. (Unfortunately i can see her being married of to young Ramsay Snow, no relation, which might make Jon realise that really, life could have turned out a hell of a lot worse... or Theon....Jon doesn't know how lucky he is!)

On the other hand, having an older version of Arya living under her roof would not have done anything at all to lessen Catelyn's jealously, and probably have made it worse if anything, as Cat would have scrutinised her every move and feature for signs of her mother. Joan would be in a classic Cinderella/ Wicked Stepmother situation and with her best chance of finding Prince Charming in Theon Greyjoy....oh dear.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Just want to mention, that besides say something nasty once while in extreme grief it appears that the worse she did to him was just give him cold looks and ensure that in special circumstances that her children's status was established. Which, while not the nicest this is still hardly some overly terrible action.

Moreover, I don't get your part about "Instead of admiring Ned for standing up and all" what exactly did Ned do that she admire?

I'm running out of time for the day, or a few hours, what I meant about Ned standing up was.......bringing him home, raising him, and not just sending the medieval version of a check. It's as if Cat would have liked that better, whether Jon was in her face or not....it seems she'd have been happy to live a lie, ie......not have Jon in her face, etc. I just think that Cat took alot of the issues out on Jon, just in feelings, too, that she should have taken up with Ned. The idea of Jon far away would have helped Cat live in a pretend world, I think, and she resented Ned not doing that either.

Anyway, I didn't mean it argumentative, I like Cat, LOL, believe it or not........I just don't like her never learning, even in her heart, to give Jon a break. Her children loved the hell out of him. I'll check back for any responses tonight, but I didn't mean it as argument, I hope you know that.

[WeaselPie]

Well to answer the question "what if Joan was a girl" - dare I say I think that's moot. He wasn't.

I think Cat's proven to be VERY intuitive, and part of her distrust of Jon was likely that something wasn't right with the story, or something didn't add up (in addition to him supposedly being Ned's bastard, of course).

If he were a girl, I think she would have had the same intuitive distrust of the child, regardless. Jon, after all, was a kind brother and a good son, and she still distrusted him (I think hate is too strong a word). Cat is merely showing us all that she is incredibly perceptive, but can't always figure out exactly why. She obviously proves this in later events.

[Good King Daemon]

A lot of her anger at Jon was because she never understood why Ned brought him to be raised at winterfell instead of Ned just leaving him with some money to provide for him and to apprentice him off at some point ( like gendry). I think she would be more understanding of a girl cause there's less opportunities for her as well as less of a threat to her own kids.

[Minsc]

I'm running out of time for the day, or a few hours, what I meant about Ned standing up was.......bringing him home, raising him, and not just sending the medieval version of a check. It's as if Cat would have liked that better, whether Jon was in her face or not....it seems she'd have been happy to live a lie, ie......not have Jon in her face, etc.

I think the issue is that is what she would have preferred. In how, while she mentions that she doesn't mind if Ned wanted to provide for Jon she would rather him not do in her own home and at the same standard as his own children. Instead, she would have rather he followed the more commonly accepted social standard of fostering Jon with a bannermen.

Though, that might have been different if Jon had been a girl in how we don't know if girl bastards are given the same opportunities to be fostered as boy bastards.