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Light a wight tonight

Jo(a)n Snow?

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Obviously if Jon had been Joan (or Visenya depending on who you ask) Catelyn would not have seen her as a threat to her children's inheritance. A hindrance perhaps that they'd have to fork out an extra dowry, but presumably they could have found a good and advantageous marriage for Joan Snow and it might have worked out for the Stark families benefit. (Unfortunately i can see her being married of to young Ramsay Snow, no relation, which might make Jon realise that really, life could have turned out a hell of a lot worse... or Theon....Jon doesn't know how lucky he is!)

I think you're looking way too high for a match for the hypothetical Joan.

We don't see anyone in the 7K-besides-Dorne trying to marry unlegitimized bastard daughters off to anyone at all highborn, much less to an heir to a major house. (Well, there's LF trying to marry Alayne to first Robert Arryn and then Harry the Heir, but that only works because he plans to reveal that she's really Sansa Stark.)

Maybe with a big enough dowry they could marry her off to one of their bannermen's second sons or nephews, who might happen to end up in a much higher position after the War (like Cregan Karstark or Brandon Tallhart), but otherwise, she's not going to end up as lady of any castle.

More likely, she'd end up married to a hedge knight or commoner whose family would brag 100 years later that they had Stark blood in them but no one would care.

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Well obviously, if Jon had been Joan, he and Sansa would have been BFF's. They would have ate lemon cakes and weaved tapestries together. When the Stark family was heading south, Joan would have given Sansa a going away lemon cake, which Sansa would keep and cherish forever, even going so far as to bury it somewhere in KL only to dig it up when she ran off to the Fingers where she'd bury it again, then dig up to bury it again at the Eyrie, and then later dig up and bury it again at the Gates of the Moon. It seems unlikely the lemon cake would survive that long, but Joan fucking Snow made that lemon cake so it would be the best damn magical lemon cake ever.



Because Joan is female and she has a semi mute direwolf, she'd be joining the Silent Sisters, who are really a group of gals who guard the realm against the Others - a group of dudes who can literally scream ice. It's crazy and scary and really cold and it hurts everyone's ear drums. Joan's new BFF, Samantha, learns that they can mute the Others when she jams an emerald thorn down Puddles' throat and melts his voice box. Joan, being a little lady, decides to team up with the new High Sparrow, Mance, in more ways than one. There's a little love affair brewing but they also work to get the realm to hand over precious jewels and flowers. People aren't having it, so Joan and the High Sparrow decide to help stage a showdown between the two queens in a ploy to bribe the Tyrells and the Lannisters out of their roses and emeralds.



In the meantime, Joan sends his BFF Samantha off to impersonate a male so that he can learn stuff from the Citadel. Samatha gets lost on the way and his ship lands right at the Gates of the Moon. No one knows how, but it probably has a lot to do with that magical lemon cake. He runs into Sansa, but he doesn't know because Sansa is now Alayne. She gives him a little bit of advice and help and he drops a clue that LF had helped kill Ned Stark. Samantha heads off again towards the Citadel (he makes it, but that's an entirely different hypothetical story).



When Samantha leaves, Sansa, digs out her magical lemon cake, which is actually poisoned. She take Littlefinger into a nook and feeds it to him. He dies and she collects his cloak and tosses it on the table where the Lord's Declarant were meeting and says, "I just thought someone was cold. It's a good cloak."



And they all live happily ever after.


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Well obviously, if Jon had been Joan, he and Sansa would have been BFF's. They would have ate lemon cakes and weaved tapestries together. When the Stark family was heading south, Joan would have given Sansa a going away lemon cake, which Sansa would keep and cherish forever, even going so far as to bury it somewhere in KL only to dig it up when she ran off to the Fingers where she'd bury it again, then dig up to bury it again at the Eyrie, and then later dig up and bury it again at the Gates of the Moon. It seems unlikely the lemon cake would survive that long, but Joan fucking Snow made that lemon cake so it would be the best damn magical lemon cake ever.

Because Joan is female and she has a semi mute direwolf, she'd be joining the Silent Sisters, who are really a group of gals who guard the realm against the Others - a group of dudes who can literally scream ice. It's crazy and scary and really cold and it hurts everyone's ear drums. Joan's new BFF, Samantha, learns that they can mute the Others when she jams an emerald thorn down Puddles' throat and melts his voice box. Joan, being a little lady, decides to team up with the new High Sparrow, Mance, in more ways than one. There's a little love affair brewing but they also work to get the realm to hand over precious jewels and flowers. People aren't having it, so Joan and the High Sparrow decide to help stage a showdown between the two queens in a ploy to bribe the Tyrells and the Lannisters out of their roses and emeralds.

In the meantime, Joan sends his BFF Samantha off to impersonate a male so that he can learn stuff from the Citadel. Samatha gets lost on the way and his ship lands right at the Gates of the Moon. No one knows how, but it probably has a lot to do with that magical lemon cake. He runs into Sansa, but he doesn't know because Sansa is now Alayne. She gives him a little bit of advice and help and he drops a clue that LF had helped kill Ned Stark. Samantha heads off again towards the Citadel (he makes it, but that's an entirely different hypothetical story).

When Samantha leaves, Sansa, digs out her magical lemon cake, which is actually poisoned. She take Littlefinger into a nook and feeds it to him. He dies and she collects his cloak and tosses it on the table where the Lord's Declarant were meeting and says, "I just thought someone was cold. It's a good cloak."

And they all live happily ever after.

Is Samantha a secret targ?

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Is Samantha a secret targ?

No, Samantha is just a secret Frey. Fat Walda's big sister. She was sent to the Silent Sisters because she tried to lose weight instead of being happy to be married to Roose.

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Something tells me this is gonna turn into a Cat-hate thread sadly :(

I hope not, I never understood the Cat-hate.

Cat can tell when people are lying (e.g. Bran). Bastards don't make her particularly uncomfortable. She has an excellent relationship with her husband.

I think her distrust of Jon is because she subconsciously knows that he is somehow involved in something deceitful. It obviously has nothing to do with him being a bad person, or him having affected her marriage or family life, because he has not. She simply has a terrible feeling about him, for reasons she cannot really understand. It's easy to blame her dislike of Jon on Ned's infidelity, but I don't believe that's the real reason.

This is a set up for us all, because Cat will again and again show that she has a gut-feeling about deception (e.g. Theon, the RW, etc.), and she often misdirects her intuition and makes poor decisions because of that...and Jon represents one of the biggest deceptions in the entire story (yet to be revealed).

I like to think Cat will learn the truth, and will finally be able to fully forgive Ned, and Jon of course.

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Joan would have been a Lyanna clone, making her real identity easier to figure out. Also, things would have went south real fast if Robert noticed that he could have a second chance with 'Lyanna'.

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Joan would have been a Lyanna clone, making her real identity easier to figure out. Also, things would have went south real fast if Robert noticed that he could have a second chance with 'Lyanna'.

I'm having a hard time seeing how that would have made things worse.

As soon as he sees teenage Joan, Robert starts looking for a way to set aside Cersei so he can have her instead. He sets Jon Arryn to digging for a good pretext. Jon discovers the twincest a few years ahead of schedule--and he's not keeping it secret from Robert this time, so there's no way to silence him. Jaime is sent to the Wall, Cersei to the Sisters, the kids to be fostered with various loyal houses, and Tywin gets to go home to Casterly to think about his family's disagrace.

Of course Ned rejects the idea of a Robert-Joan marriage, but Robert turns on the charm and they elope, and then Littlefinger does everything he can to provoke Ned into pulling a Brandon. But Cat and Jon Arryn can easily stop him from going that far.

Obviously Joan wouldn't have a great life as Robert's wife, but then Jon doesn't have a great life in the NW. And obviously you've still got Littlefinger being Littlefinger, Ramsay being Ramsay, Euron stirring up the Ironborn, fAegon landing with the GC, debts piling up, etc. But it's still going to be a lot better than the endless series of wars leaving Westeros depleted just when they should have been preparing for Winter.

So, everyone lives happily ever after. Until Dany burns down half of Westeros with her dragons and the Others freeze anyone who isn't on fire, but hey, that was going to happen no matter what.

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I'm having a hard time seeing how that would have made things worse.

As soon as he sees teenage Joan, Robert starts looking for a way to set aside Cersei so he can have her instead. He sets Jon Arryn to digging for a good pretext. Jon discovers the twincest a few years ahead of schedule--and he's not keeping it secret from Robert this time, so there's no way to silence him. Jaime is sent to the Wall, Cersei to the Sisters, the kids to be fostered with various loyal houses, and Tywin gets to go home to Casterly to think about his family's disagrace.

How does Robert get to see a teenage Joan before Jon Arryn's death? As it isn't like Ned can send Robert photographs of his family while they are growing up. Moreover, I doubt when he visits after Jon's death that Ned would be showing off his bastard daughter in any measure for him to witness her.

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How does Robert get to see a teenage Joan before Jon Arryn's death?

You don't think there would be rumors that the Starks had a bastard girl who looked just like Lyanna? And you don't think when Robert heard those rumors he'd find an excuse to come visit and see her?

As it isn't like Ned can send Robert photographs of his family while they are growing up.

This is just an aside, but I've never understood why no one sends drawings by raven once in the entire story until the Theon preview chapter from TWoW…

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