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Mathis Rowan and his role in the next book


ironhandbywater

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No one has or is arguing Aerys' paranoia. The argument concerns Randyll Tarly's motivation for sending Aerys the head of Lord Caffern. Despite his condition, Aerys had the good sense to not trouble his troops in the field.

I am not sure how much Aerys knew of what his own armies were doing in the field (especially towards the end when he made his pyromancer Hand of the King and became obsessed with wildfire). However I would think that a shrewd man like Randyll Tarly would see it as a win-win situation to send the head of a traitor to the King.

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You and I have a very different definition of "Unity". There are many examples of lesser Houses of the Reach fighting with those of Dorne (the Oakhearts, amongst others). If Aegon marries Ariane, this could actually, in my opinion, have the opposite effect and galvanize the houses of the Reach against him. But this is getting way speculative.

Your argument is based upon the historical enmity between Sunspear and Highgarden, having fought skirmish and border war beyond count. My argument is based upon House Targaryen at the hight of its strength and prosperity.

From the time that Daeron the Good joined Dorne to the realm until the end of Robert's Rebellion, the two regions were relatively at peace and united under Targaryen rule.

Mace Tyrell even offered the marriage of his heir to Arianne Martell.

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Mace Tyrell even offered the marriage of his heir to Arianne Martell.

I believe it was Arianne Martell who wanted to visit Highgarden to meet Willas Tyrell and Prince Doran refused (same thing happened when Hoster Tully offered a marriage to Edmure).

Reference here: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Arianne_Martell

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I agree with your points #3 and #5.

Howver I have to disagree with the statement in point #4 namely that the Tyrells fought until the end. The Tyrells dipped their banners and bent the knee without so much as resisting when Ned Stark came to lift the siege of Storm's End. They fought in one battle, at Ashford and then basically sat outside of Storm's End until someone came and told them to do otherwise.

You cannot put that on the Tyrells. They likely did what was ordered of them. Rhaegar did have 40,000 men with him on the Trident. He likely figured that was all he needed.

Why Rhaegar did not merge his 40,000 men along with the full might of the Reach and descend upon the Trident with overwhelming force is beyond me. The Tyrells mustered roughtly 70,000 men during the War of the Five Kings. Half of that would more than likely have finished Robert, Ned, and the rebels or the Trident.

Storm's End was manned by a skeleton crew and commanded by a young and green Stannis Baratheon. Thats a question you will have to ask GRRM.

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You cannot put that on the Tyrells.

I am not "putting" anything on the Tyrells. I actually like the Tyrells, my point is the term fighting until the end usually implies there is actualy fighting going on.

In the case of the Tyrells, they did the smart thing and stayed away from the fighting laying a relatively fightless siege of Storm's End and then bent the knee without so much as resisting. I know we may be getting a bit lost in translation here but it is an important distinction.

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I believe it was Arianne Martell who wanted to visit Highgarden to meet Willas Tyrell and Prince Doran refused (same thing happened when Hoster Tully offered a marriage to Edmure).

Reference here: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Arianne_Martell

Correct, but the offers were first made by Hoster Tully and Mace Tyrell once Arianne became of age. Arianne did not just want to go to Highgarden out of the blue to meet Willas.

See Arianne's chapter in ADWD (The Princess in the Tower).

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I am not "putting" anything on the Tyrells. I actually like the Tyrells, my point is the term fighting until the end usually implies there is actualy fighting going on.

In the case of the Tyrells, they did the smart thing and stayed away from the fighting laying a relatively fightless siege of Storm's End and then bent the knee without so much as resisting. I know we may be getting a bit lost in translation here but it is an important distinction.

As I said, the Tyrells were likely following Rhaegar's orders. If he wanted more manpower, all he had to do was command it. The Tyrells invaded the Stormlands and cut Robert off from anymore support.

Fighting until the end can just as easily mean fighting until there is no longer any reasonable cause to continue. The Tyrells read the tea leaves and made a decision.

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Correct, but the offers were first made by Hoster Tully and Mace Tyrell once Arianne became of age. Arianne did not just want to go to Highgarden out of the blue to meet Willas.

See Arianne's chapter in ADWD (The Princess in the Tower).

The chapter you are referring to is in AFFC (Chapter 40). The only Chapter referencing Arianne in ADWD is Chapter 38 (Aero I) - The Watcher. But this is semantics. I always thought that Arianne wanted to go marry a Tyrell to piss off her dad.

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The chapter you are referring to is in AFFC (Chapter 40). The only Chapter referencing Arianne in ADWD is Chapter 38 (Aero I) - The Watcher. But this is semantics. I always thought that Arianne wanted to go marry a Tyrell to piss off her dad.

Thanks for the correction. I meant AFFC all the way. The reading is grouped around the Tully offer and presupposes an invitation was extended by Mace Tyrell. Children don't make their own marriage alliances.

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Thanks for the correction. I meant AFFC all the way. The reading is grouped around the Tully offer and presupposes an invitation was extended by Mace Tyrell. Children don't make their own marriage alliances.

I know children don't make their own alliances but remember that Arianne resents her father and just her suggesting that she would marry a Tyrell would probably make Doran go nuts (especially all that happened around the time, if I am not mistaken, that Arianne finds out her father planned to bypass her and make Quentyn his successor).

Remember that Martell women enjoy a lot more freedom and independance than most women in Westeros and Arianne certainly has a mind of her own.

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I know children don't make their own alliances but remember that Arianne resents her father and just her suggesting that she would marry a Tyrell would probably make Doran go nuts (especially all that happened around the time, if I am not mistaken, that Arianne finds out her father planned to bypass her and make Quentyn his successor).

Remember that Martell women enjoy a lot more freedom and independance than most women in Westeros and Arianne certainly has a mind of her own.

Thats certainly true of the Sand Snakes and common Dornish women, however highborn children still conform to traditional protocol. If Arianne had her choice, she would have been happy with Daemon Sand, but he was too low born and she was the heir of Dorne itself.

She says she would have considered Willas Tyrell, crippled leg and all, but Dorne would not send her to Highgarden to meet him. This all presupposes a marriage proposal like Lord Hoster and a similar refusal. I don't think a personal vendetta against Doran entered into the equation.

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I don't think a personal vendetta against Doran entered into the equation.

She was certainly resentful of her father's style of leadership and frustrated for having been, supposedly, passed on for the line of succession. Don't forget that she actually tried to take off to Highgarden and was stopped by Oberyn Martell. That is a lot more daring than most highborn girls would be in Westeros.

Edit: Well I am coming down with a cold and should be headed to bed. You are a fine writer and I look forward to debating you again in the future. Goodnight :cheers:

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She was certainly resentful of her father's style of leadership and frustrated for having been, supposedly, passed on for the line of succession. Don't forget that she actually tried to take off to Highgarden and was stopped by Oberyn Martell. That is a lot more daring than most highborn girls would be in Westeros.

Edit: Well I am coming down with a cold and should be headed to bed. You are a fine writer and I look forward to debating you again in the future. Goodnight :cheers:

Thank you for the complement and I enjoy debating you as well. Additionally, my apologies to the OP for taking the thread off track. All future responses will involve the fate of Mathis Rowan.

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1. All assertion require evidence, or they result in mere speculation, which I will go ahead and classify your deduction. I stand by my previous argument wholeheartedly. Aside from House Yronwood, you cannot give name another truly great house that fully supported Daemon. If they did, they more than likely protected themselves by keeping a foot in both camps.

I'm only relaying to you what the books and GRRM relayed to me. Baelor Breakspear promoted a policy of leniency to the rebels. No contradiction here my friend..

2. Not really. Its safe to say he was not the Lord of House Reyne or its heir. House Lannister would have surely used a Reyne Rebellion to capture their lands and castles.

1. You argued that any great house who fought for the Blackfyres would likely not be great today. That is contradicted by the notion that there was a policy of leniency towards the rebels.

2. As a man who frequently argues against people making assumptions, I find it strange you know for a certain what House Lannister would do if the Reynes fought for the Black Dragon. The Martells and Yronwoods have been feuding for centuries yet I see no evidence that Yronwood was severely depleted or that House Martell capitalized on their treason.

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However I would think that a shrewd man like Randyll Tarly would see it as a win-win situation to send the head of a traitor to the King.

Exactly, sending the head costs him literally zero effort and has no risk at all attached to it. It may not have won him any favor with Aerys but it might have. Thus it's what people in the gambling world call a "freeroll" = no risk, possible reward.

When you do something with no risk that requires no effort, it's not good evidence of devotion or loyalty.

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1. You argued that any great house who fought for the Blackfyres would likely not be great today. That is contradicted by the notion that there was a policy of leniency towards the rebels.

2. As a man who frequently argues against people making assumptions, I find it strange you know for a certain what House Lannister would do if the Reynes fought for the Black Dragon. The Martells and Yronwoods have been feuding for centuries yet I see no evidence that Yronwood was severely depleted or that House Martell capitalized on their treason.

1. And I stand by that. Notice the fact that I said likely, which is not an absolute. Additionally, I go back to the fact that aside from the aside from House Yronwood, you cannot name a single one of the houses that are considered to be great, that fully supported Daemon Blackfyre. This demonstrates that those with the most to lose stayed loyal to King Daeron.

By the time of the battle of the Redgrass Field (the decisive battle), Baelor Breakspear took control of the armies from the Stormlands and Dorne. Ser Gwayne Corbray of the KG led the Vale army into battle. Maekar led the rest. Aside from Daemon Blackfyre, his sons, and Bittersteel, the rebels had no one else of note.

Baelor Breakspear wanted leniency for the rebels, while Bloodraven wanted to crush them utterly. Since Baelor was the king's heir and soon after his Hand, its a safe assumption that Baelor won out. To sum up, its pretty clear that Daemon's support came from the lesser lords and knights. This is me using the information given to me to make an assertion. No contradiction here.

2. I don't frequently argue the making of assertions. I frequently argue against those who make unsupported assertions, which in turn is nothing more than mere speculation.

My assertion of what House Lannister would do is supported by ample evidence:

1. House Reyne was without a doubt the second most powerful house in the Westerlands and a rival to House Lannister. Castamere is rich in goldmines and gave the Reyens their own source of immense wealth.

2. A Lord Paramount would jump at the chance to rid itself of a dangerous rival that had allowed itself to become so vulnerable by supporting a failed rebellion. See Mace Tyrell ridding himself of the Florents by demanding their lands and titles, and then giving them to his younger son.

3. If House Reyne supported Daemon Blackfyre, it was more than likely with a foot in both camps like the Hightowers, Tarbecks, and more than likely the Yronwoods.

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Exactly, sending the head costs him literally zero effort and has no risk at all attached to it. It may not have won him any favor with Aerys but it might have. Thus it's what people in the gambling world call a "freeroll" = no risk, possible reward.

When you do something with no risk that requires no effort, it's not good evidence of devotion or loyalty.

This is of course your interpretation and you are welcome to it. But a man as shrewd Lord Randyll would show his loyalty to his king by sending him the head of a traitor who first fought for the king and then against him. He equally showed loyalty to his liege lord by allowing him to claim the credit for the victory all of these years.

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This is of course your interpretation and you are welcome to it. But a man as shrewd Lord Randyll would show his loyalty to his king by sending him the head of a traitor who first fought for the king and then against him. He equally showed loyalty to his liege lord by allowing him to claim the credit for the victory all of these years.

You're pretty much agreeing with me. Randyll did what he had to do, it wasn't about some sense of devotion or inherent loyalty. He played it smart and pragmatic.

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1. And I stand by that. Notice the fact that I said likely, which is not an absolute. Additionally, I go back to the fact that aside from the aside from House Yronwood, you cannot name a single one of the houses that are considered to be great, that fully supported Daemon Blackfyre. This demonstrates that those with the most to lose stayed loyal to King Daeron.

By the time of the battle of the Redgrass Field (the decisive battle), Baelor Breakspear took control of the armies from the Stormlands and Dorne. Ser Gwayne Corbray of the KG led the Vale army into battle. Maekar led the rest. Aside from Daemon Blackfyre, his sons, and Bittersteel, the rebels had no one else of note.

Baelor Breakspear wanted leniency for the rebels, while Bloodraven wanted to crush them utterly. Since Baelor was the king's heir and soon after his Hand, its a safe assumption that Baelor won out. To sum up, its pretty clear that Daemon's support came from the lesser lords and knights. This is me using the information given to me to make an assertion. No contradiction here.

2. I don't frequently argue the making of assertions. I frequently argue against those who make unsupported assertions, which in turn is nothing more than mere speculation.

1. The problem isn't that "I can't name them" it's more that we simply don't know where *most* of the houses stood in the BF rebellions, period. Something like 80% of the houses in Westeros, we simply don't know who they fought for.

I find it highly unlikely that "half the realm" somehow didn't include at least a few major houses. Nor have you actually made it clear that Daemon's support came mostly from lesser lords and knights. As you have said to me, you're welcome to that assumption. :)

2. My assertion was supported by logic: out of all the houses that fought for the Black Dragon, after 100 years, surely some of them have gained/re-gained some power, *especially if they were treated leniently, and especially given that some *might* have won favor with Robert during his rebellion*. Nothing in that statement is a stretch, nor am I calling it a certainty.

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My assertion of what House Lannister would do is supported by ample evidence:

1. House Reyne was without a doubt the second most powerful house in the Westerlands and a rival to House Lannister. Castamere is rich in goldmines and gave the Reyens their own source of immense wealth.

2. A Lord Paramount would jump at the chance to rid itself of a dangerous rival that had allowed itself to become so vulnerable by supporting a failed rebellion. See Mace Tyrell ridding himself of the Florents by demanding their lands and titles, and then giving them to his younger son.

3. If House Reyne supported Daemon Blackfyre, it was more than likely with a foot in both camps like the Hightowers, Tarbecks, and more than likely the Yronwoods.

1. You're right about what they'd *want* to do, perhaps, but that isn't the same as what they are *able* to do. The King and/or his Hand would decide the punishment for the Reynes, not House Lannister.

2. He'd jump at the chance, but you're assuming that chance existed. Far from certain. Mace Tyrell is an outlier because he has massive sway at court thanks to the royal marriage.

3. Fighting on both sides may not be as common as you're making it out to be. (it could be, we don't really know). Out of several rebellions we only have a handful of examples of houses playing both sides. Not only that, but smaller houses play both sides as well. House Smallwood did so during Robert's Rebellion and so did House Swann.

In Yronwood's case this doesn't make sense at all. They rose with Bittersteel 2 or 3 times. Assuming they played both sides each of those times is bizarre.

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