Theon Kinslayer

[Valyrian Spoon]

Yeah they are refering to the Starks, although a ward and Hostage. to any visitor Theon is treated like family he trains with the Stark children, he eats with the Starks, he has freedom to ride and hunt. If you look at Roberts visit to Winterfell to the casual observer he would have seemed like more a member of the family than Jon Snow who's kept in the shadows.

[Consigliere]

All three are referring to the Starks...some of you are looking too deeply into this and can't see the obvious.

Agreed.

I don't see how they could be referring to anyone except Bran and Rickon.

[Little Balerion]

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Theon did "tumble" the miller's wife. So the miller's sons could be his. But other than the kinslayer title by the hooded man (who wasn't wearing a hood) there is no other evidence that the boys were his or that Theon suspected as much.

As to Mors Umber's use in WINDS, Mors has clearly learned that Theon did not kill Bran and Rickon. He didn't want Theon to deny kinslaying because the wrong folks (Stannis) might then find out Bran and Rickon were not killed by Theon. But this shows that the kin slayed were supposedly Bran and Rickon. Theon certainly thought of Robb as a brother and he had an affection for the little ones as well. Others saw Ned raising Theon as his ward--his foster son, so they would have perceived Theon Turncloak as a kinslayer for murdering Bran and Rickon. All three crimes, the betrayal, the murders, and the kinslaying, were all wrapped up together.

The spearwives would have picked up on this during their time in WF. They would have come to think of Theon as a betrayer and a kinslayer as well. Theon may have been thinking he didn't kill Bran and Rickon when he denied kinslaying to Rowan but she understood his denial to be based on the lack of blood relationship and rejected his denial. Again the kin were Bran and Rickon.

The HM was the ghost of Theon's former self. It is known. His former self acused Theon of betraying his "brother" rob and kinslaying--Bran and Rickon. Theon's denial was not about whom he actually killed but was based on the lack of blood relationship. The ghost of his former self knew better and threw it back in his face.

[Sullen]

They really weren't his family none of the Starks thought of him as their family and they only tolerated him because he was their father's ward.

Robb did, but I agree it's pretty much it.

If I had to guess, I'd say they are blaming Theon for the death of Robb.

[Little Balerion]

There is an interesting/crackpot parallel here,

“Theon Turncloak.” Rowan grabbed his ear, twisting. “You had to have two heads, did you?”

Theon is referring to the miller's boys. But the 'two heads' phrase reminds me of this quote from Tyrion's chapter,

In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime,

hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

I never understood what the 'two heads' dream was in Tyrion's chapter. And it reminded me of a comment by Apple Martini somewhere of Tyrion being a chimera. A chimera is a mythical creature with two heads. One of a lion, another of a goat. In humans, chimeras are formed by merging of non identical twins, the differences are subtle like mismatched eye colors. Here is the quote:

To shift to Tyrion and the idea of kinslaying, I recall seeing a theory a few days ago — I can't remember whose it was, I apologize — suggesting that Tyrion was a chimera, a twin who "absorbed" (read: killed) his other twin in the womb. That would be one possible explanation for his mismatched eyes, and there is an obvious precedent for twins in the family. If Tyrion is a chimera, he would, in theory, have been a kinslayer since before he was even born. A superstitious sort might say that Tyrion's dwarfism and the contempt his family has for him is a "result" of the kinslaying "curse" that he doesn't even know he's committed. And that's only a theory — as you say, him killing Tywin actually happened.

Unless, Theon is some sort of kinslayer in the same sense.

But most likely the kinslaying comment was for the Starks.

[MotherMerciless]

Yeah I think he's being called a kinslayer for killing the boys, nothing more.

[Light a wight tonight]

All three are referring to the Starks...some of you are looking too deeply into this and can't see the obvious.

In these books the obvious is too often a red herring to be accepted at face value. It's "obvious" that the Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn and sent the assassin for Bran. It's "obvious" that Jon is Ned's bastard son.

[Thendel]

My take is that wards are usually considered kin to their lords: Gyles Rosby's unnamed ward is a lead contender for the vacant Rosby seat, Theon is considered entitled to give fake-Arya away before the heart tree, and Lady Waynwood's permission is needed for "Alayne" marrying Harrold Hardyng.

In light of these examples, it is actually no wonder that Theon is named kinslayer: being some lord's ward is considered a bond as close as true familial bonds, and Theon being Eddard Stark's ward makes his killing of Bran and Rickon as good as kinslaying.

[Sullen]

There is an interesting/crackpot parallel here,

Theon is referring to the miller's boys. But the 'two heads' phrase reminds me of this quote from Tyrion's chapter,

I never understood what the 'two heads' dream was in Tyrion's chapter. And it reminded me of a comment by Apple Martini somewhere of Tyrion being a chimera. A chimera is a mythical creature with two heads. One of a lion, another of a goat. In humans, chimeras are formed by merging of non identical twins, the differences are subtle like mismatched eye colors. Here is the quote:

Unless, Theon is some sort of kinslayer in the same sense.

But most likely the kinslaying comment was for the Starks.

A chimera technically has three heads, the snake counts as well.

Just saying.

[IRON BANK]

I always kind of thought that even though Bran and Rickon aren't related to him, he was still raised with them and the Starks. So when he killed "Bran and Rickon" it was kind of like Kinslaying. Idk I never gave too much thought to it

I agree this is what I think to.

[Godoka]

I know this is a bit of a necro bump, and I'm sorry. I'm glad I found the thread though because I've been confused about this during my recent (first time D:) read through of DwD. Throughout Theon's chapters once "Arya" shows up, a lot is made of the mess inside Theon's head regarding his crimes and what he did VS what he'll own up to doing. The "kinslayer" comments always made me pause, because not only is it not true in a strict definition (he wasn't related to the Starks and he really didn't kill the boys -- not that many others know that, though), but because it seems that the people around him making these accusations are overlooking the really obvious fact that Theon was a hostage. He chooses a nicer word for it when talking with Roose, using "ward" instead, but in another passage he also admits that there was still the threat of death hanging over him no matter how kindly Ned treated him. So clearly people aren't at a loss as to what most "wards" of higher ranking families are. Jaime himself in an earlier chapter in DwD barters for the trading of hostages when he's dealing with Bracken and Blackwood. He even flat out uses the word, and Lord Tytos does as well:

Jaime: "...The price of rebellion. I'll claim a hostage as well." (DwD, 636).

Jaime: "Done, then. But for one last thing."

Tytos: "A hostage." (DwD, 640)

So really, it seems to me that in this situation (or just this society in general?) people seem to pick and choose when they want to take a moral high ground when it comes to the whole ward VS hostage/captive word usage. Accuse Theon of being a kinslayer even though for almost half his life he was a hostage, conveniently forget the latter point when you want to make the former. How disturbing that it's Roose Bolton of all people to rightly identify Theon's situation for what it was.

What confuses me about that, though, is that Rowan the wilding woman uses the term. What does she care? Why does she care? Unless she's just got a super strong sense of justice and I overlooked that bit of her character.

I don't know what the point of this post is. Sorry. I guess it's just grating on me that people keep using the 'kinslayer' term to insult Theon, and all I can think of is Inigo Montoya's "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

You could, I suppose, make a loose argument that the 63 Ironborn at Moat Cailin who Theon convinces to surrender counts as kinslaying under the feudal idea that he, as a Greyjoy, is their lord and their prince and thus he has a father-like responsibility to them as their leader/better. Which he betrays by leading them to their slaughter, acting as the Judas Lamb (even down to the parallel of being trained for the role by the slaughterer, Ramsay).

But it's Bran and Rickon. Why? Dramatic Irony, of course.

When he's called Kinslayer for killing them he begins to protest and is cut off.

The assumption characters make is he's excuse making. He's "not a kinslayer" because Bran and Rickon technically are not his kin, even though he was raised alongside them "like a brother." All the while we the audience know what Theon actually means is he's not a kinslayer because Bran and Rickon ARE NOT DEAD and he didn't kill them.

[Godoka]

Ah yes, dramatic irony. I forget these terms when I'm reading this story because I get too emotionally invested in some of the characters. I'm also kind of stupid, so.

I do really like the idea that he'd be held accountable for the Ironborn at Moat Cailin and that the enmity could also stem from there, though the outrage over the supposed Bran and Rickon murders are clearly taking precedence. I think I'll just focus on that sad part.

[Laime Jannister]

My take is that wards are usually considered kin to their lords: Gyles Rosby's unnamed ward is a lead contender for the vacant Rosby seat, Theon is considered entitled to give fake-Arya away before the heart tree, and Lady Waynwood's permission is needed for "Alayne" marrying Harrold Hardyng.

In light of these examples, it is actually no wonder that Theon is named kinslayer: being some lord's ward is considered a bond as close as true familial bonds, and Theon being Eddard Stark's ward makes his killing of Bran and Rickon as good as kinslaying.

Doesn't "Kinslayer" have legal meaning? I imagined it did. In a world where your reputation is your life, and your life is your reputation, being accused of being a kinslayer (in a world governed by blood ties) seems to be a very serious charge, and one that shouldn't be leveled lightly. It seems odd that people would use kinslaying in the broad sense you are talking about. Wouldn't that demean the actual instances of kinslaying?

In Theon's case, he literally and figuratively is NOT a kinslayer. He literally didnt kill Bran and Rickon, and even if he did, they weren't his kin. If Theon were kin, he could inherit Stark lands. He can't be kin just because he was raised with the Starks.

I see your points, and I initially thought the same thing as you, but it bugs me that the northmen would just throw around "kinslayer" so lightly. I have no clue why GRRM would have people call him kinslayer...

[jon stark I]

Theon was treated badly by his brothers they bullied him that is all he remembers about them.Theon himself says Robb was a more of a brother then his own brothers.Ofcourse Ned and Cat were a bit cold to him but he wasn't treated badly there.

[watadam20]

I've always put it down to people considering the Stark's to be Theon's family given they raised him for longer than Balon did. And he repaid the kindness they showed him by "killing" Bran & Rickon. There may well be a deeper meaning to it but I doubt it.

[Ahura Mazda]

I always kind of thought that even though Bran and Rickon aren't related to him, he was still raised with them and the Starks. So when he killed "Bran and Rickon" it was kind of like Kinslaying. Idk I never gave too much thought to it

:agree: this 100,01%

[Gizzelle]

It’s somewhat of a tangent but Rowan is the most puzzling part of aDwD for me. Her comments suggest she knows that Theon didn’t consider Bran and Rickon family and possibly even that he didn’t kill them (as she overhears him talking to the weirwood) yet persists with kinslayer. Her impassioned defence of Eddard is completely at odds with other wildlings we have met as well. I know the secret identity trope is wearing thin but she can’t be simply an anonymous spearwive.

The other 2 quotes could easily be taken at face value as murdering Bran + Rickon = kinslayer. (Mors Umber hasn’t yet had face time with Manderly so doesn't know about their continued existence)

[James Arryn]

I'm not a fan of Theon or Reek or his redemption arc, but I think Theon gets royally screwed in the story and by fans. I will now employ a number of rhetorical questions to make my point annoyingly clear.

He was a hostage, not a guest, and certainly not a family member. Was he free to go back to Pyke if he wanted? No he wasn't. He had to be kept do that, in theory, Ned could have him at hand to kill in case Balon acted like Balon.

Which brings me to the sense that he was lucky to be treated as he was. Was he? No, of course not. In the scheme of Westeros nobility, these are his exact contemporaries as he grows up:

Robb Stark.

Robert Arryn.

Edmure Tully.

Tyrion Lannister (or Jaime, depending)

Joffrey Baratheon

Willas Tyrell

Arianne Martell.

That's it. He is heir to one of the Great Houses. Oh, but his House rebelled? Well, so did the Arryns and Starks and Tullys and Lannisters and Baratheons. Or, seen from the other side, the Martells and Tyrells. And many lesser houses whose sons were not given over to hostage as a lifetime calling.

So, considering his contemporaries, was he treated well? No, he had zero power, little privilege or freedom, and was essentially a very well kept prisoner with hunting rights in a foreign land. And of course they treated him more like family than his own did: his own were not allowed to see him, because he was a Stark hostage.

Which brings me to the war. Did he choose for the Starks and Greyjoys to be at war? No. Not at all. In fact he tried to prevent it. But, again, someone else decided Theon's fate and he was held to blame.

So, the war being true, what was his right course? What could he do and not be despised?

If he fights for his family, he is despised as a traitor, turncoat, and kinslayer, right? And if he fights for the Starks...? He is despised as a traitor, turncoat and potentially kinslayer. Even by many in the North.

And if he refuses to fight for either? Despised as a coward and traitor.

So what, exactly, was his road to not being despised once his father rejected his pleas and went to war?

At worst he betrayed Robb, to whom he did swear allegiance, and who came the closest to actually treating him like family. Now the question of his fate if he refused to swear allegiance is interesting...he might not exactly have felt free to choose...but that I think we can at least pit down as a questionable move in that he did not think he was swearing allegiance against his own family, and I think there is an assumption of allegiance to his own father, so tough spot again.

Attacking Winterfell? Well, he had chosen his blood family. Would he be more honourable if he half asses it? Is he not honour bound to do his best to win? What happens if his family loses, again?

And the miller's boys. About which he holds some blame, but he was again on the horns of a dilemma, and no war leader in the story has bloodless hands or did not choose the death of children at some point, directly or indirectly. Still, cold blooded murder of children doesn't get a pass.

But that was really his only wrong, IMO. And by then he was so fucked by choices made FOR him, about which he had no out, and he was STILL trying to find the right way and save Bran and Rickon...

He's hated because he caused the downfall of the most beloved family in the series, period. We buy all the 'traitor' stuff with much more of an unquestioning ear than we normally give proclamations made by biased character in the series because emotionally we WANT Theon to blame, because we want someone. And we relish his torture for far less wrongs with far less control than we give others a pass on.

One of the things I hate about his redemption arc is that he's buying into the narrative about himself that only really applies because of WHO he is supposed to have wronged rather than how wrong he actually was.