Theon Kinslayer

[-Ghost-]

I thought they were talking about the Starks too. Like when Theon is talking to the HM he says that he was Ironborn like hes saying hes not a Stark, the same way he kept reminding the Ironborn that he wasnt a Stark when he came back.

[Phonzadellika]

I'm not a fan of Theon or Reek or his redemption arc, but I think Theon gets royally screwed in the story and by fans. I will now employ a number of rhetorical questions to make my point annoyingly clear.

He was a hostage, not a guest, and certainly not a family member. Was he free to go back to Pyke if he wanted? No he wasn't. He had to be kept do that, in theory, Ned could have him at hand to kill in case Balon acted like Balon.

Which brings me to the sense that he was lucky to be treated as he was. Was he? No, of course not. In the scheme of Westeros nobility, these are his exact contemporaries as he grows up:

Robb Stark.

Robert Arryn.

Edmure Tully.

Tyrion Lannister (or Jaime, depending)

Joffrey Baratheon

Willas Tyrell

Arianne Martell.

That's it. He is heir to one of the Great Houses. Oh, but his House rebelled? Well, so did the Arryns and Starks and Tullys and Lannisters and Baratheons. Or, seen from the other side, the Martells and Tyrells. And many lesser houses whose sons were not given over to hostage as a lifetime calling.

So, considering his contemporaries, was he treated well? No, he had zero power, little privilege or freedom, and was essentially a very well kept prisoner with hunting rights in a foreign land. And of course they treated him more like family than his own did: his own were not allowed to see him, because he was a Stark hostage.

Which brings me to the war. Did he choose for the Starks and Greyjoys to be at war? No. Not at all. In fact he tried to prevent it. But, again, someone else decided Theon's fate and he was held to blame.

So, the war being true, what was his right course? What could he do and not be despised?

If he fights for his family, he is despised as a traitor, turncoat, and kinslayer, right? And if he fights for the Starks...? He is despised as a traitor, turncoat and potentially kinslayer. Even by many in the North.

And if he refuses to fight for either? Despised as a coward and traitor.

So what, exactly, was his road to not being despised once his father rejected his pleas and went to war?

At worst he betrayed Robb, to whom he did swear allegiance, and who came the closest to actually treating him like family. Now the question of his fate if he refused to swear allegiance is interesting...he might not exactly have felt free to choose...but that I think we can at least pit down as a questionable move in that he did not think he was swearing allegiance against his own family, and I think there is an assumption of allegiance to his own father, so tough spot again.

Attacking Winterfell? Well, he had chosen his blood family. Would he be more honourable if he half asses it? Is he not honour bound to do his best to win? What happens if his family loses, again?

And the miller's boys. About which he holds some blame, but he was again on the horns of a dilemma, and no war leader in the story has bloodless hands or did not choose the death of children at some point, directly or indirectly. Still, cold blooded murder of children doesn't get a pass.

But that was really his only wrong, IMO. And by then he was so fucked by choices made FOR him, about which he had no out, and he was STILL trying to find the right way and save Bran and Rickon...

He's hated because he caused the downfall of the most beloved family in the series, period. We buy all the 'traitor' stuff with much more of an unquestioning ear than we normally give proclamations made by biased character in the series because emotionally we WANT Theon to blame, because we want someone. And we relish his torture for far less wrongs with far less control than we give others a pass on.

One of the things I hate about his redemption arc is that he's buying into the narrative about himself that only really applies because of WHO he is supposed to have wronged rather than how wrong he actually was.

+1

[Mithras]

I never thought they were referring to Stark children. Three very different people accusing Theon of kinslaying in this order is a clue left by GRRM.

[Duckfield]

Ned and Cat never treated him like a son...

But the Stark children DID treat him like a brother, and that's why they call him a kinslayer.

[Mithras]

Ned and Cat never treated him like a son...

But the Stark children DID treat him like a brother, and that's why they call him a kinslayer.

How can a wildling woman possibly know that kind of detail?

[Duckfield]

How can a wildling woman possibly know that kind of detail?

Why else would she say that? How could she know about the miller's boys? and Balon died after Ramsay took him.

Maybe Mance told her, he's been to Winterfell before and he knows the Starks, so he probably knew who Theon was.

[Mithras]

This is the most in depth explanation, which covers up every detail in a reasonable way.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

I'm not a fan of Theon or Reek or his redemption arc, but I think Theon gets royally screwed in the story and by fans. I will now employ a number of rhetorical questions to make my point annoyingly clear.

snip

I agree. Theon is actually the character I feel the most for, because he really wants to belong to something. He's the outkast. No matter what he does, he doesn't belong to anything, and no matter what he does, it's ALWAYS wrong. All the other characters have a side/belong to a side, or at least start out with a side they belong to. Everything Theon does comes from the desire to please either the Starks or his daddy, he never does anything with the intention to HURT others (yes he does hurt and kill people, but it stems from a desperate intention to please, not to harm).. in that sense one could even argue that Arya is a much more evil character than Theon, because she's determined to kill a whole bunch of people. Surely they deserve to die, but her intention is definitely to harm.

In the end I don't think you can compare these characters, or their motives, but I don't think it's fair to decide one is better than the other either, just because they belong to the right (most beloved) family by default.

[Lost Melnibonean]

This is the most in depth explanation, which covers up every detail in a reasonable way.

Sorry but that author spent a bunch of time talking about how Theon couldn't recognize the HM since his hood covered his head. The hood was NOT up. It was flapping behind him.

[Sullen]

I'm not a fan of Theon or Reek or his redemption arc, but I think Theon gets royally screwed in the story and by fans. I will now employ a number of rhetorical questions to make my point annoyingly clear.

He was a hostage, not a guest, and certainly not a family member. Was he free to go back to Pyke if he wanted? No he wasn't. He had to be kept do that, in theory, Ned could have him at hand to kill in case Balon acted like Balon.

Which brings me to the sense that he was lucky to be treated as he was. Was he? No, of course not. In the scheme of Westeros nobility, these are his exact contemporaries as he grows up:

Robb Stark.

Robert Arryn.

Edmure Tully.

Tyrion Lannister (or Jaime, depending)

Joffrey Baratheon

Willas Tyrell

Arianne Martell.

That's it. He is heir to one of the Great Houses. Oh, but his House rebelled? Well, so did the Arryns and Starks and Tullys and Lannisters and Baratheons. Or, seen from the other side, the Martells and Tyrells. And many lesser houses whose sons were not given over to hostage as a lifetime calling.

So, considering his contemporaries, was he treated well? No, he had zero power, little privilege or freedom, and was essentially a very well kept prisoner with hunting rights in a foreign land. And of course they treated him more like family than his own did: his own were not allowed to see him, because he was a Stark hostage.

Which brings me to the war. Did he choose for the Starks and Greyjoys to be at war? No. Not at all. In fact he tried to prevent it. But, again, someone else decided Theon's fate and he was held to blame.

So, the war being true, what was his right course? What could he do and not be despised?

If he fights for his family, he is despised as a traitor, turncoat, and kinslayer, right? And if he fights for the Starks...? He is despised as a traitor, turncoat and potentially kinslayer. Even by many in the North.

And if he refuses to fight for either? Despised as a coward and traitor.

So what, exactly, was his road to not being despised once his father rejected his pleas and went to war?

At worst he betrayed Robb, to whom he did swear allegiance, and who came the closest to actually treating him like family. Now the question of his fate if he refused to swear allegiance is interesting...he might not exactly have felt free to choose...but that I think we can at least pit down as a questionable move in that he did not think he was swearing allegiance against his own family, and I think there is an assumption of allegiance to his own father, so tough spot again.

Attacking Winterfell? Well, he had chosen his blood family. Would he be more honourable if he half asses it? Is he not honour bound to do his best to win? What happens if his family loses, again?

And the miller's boys. About which he holds some blame, but he was again on the horns of a dilemma, and no war leader in the story has bloodless hands or did not choose the death of children at some point, directly or indirectly. Still, cold blooded murder of children doesn't get a pass.

But that was really his only wrong, IMO. And by then he was so fucked by choices made FOR him, about which he had no out, and he was STILL trying to find the right way and save Bran and Rickon...

He's hated because he caused the downfall of the most beloved family in the series, period. We buy all the 'traitor' stuff with much more of an unquestioning ear than we normally give proclamations made by biased character in the series because emotionally we WANT Theon to blame, because we want someone. And we relish his torture for far less wrongs with far less control than we give others a pass on.

One of the things I hate about his redemption arc is that he's buying into the narrative about himself that only really applies because of WHO he is supposed to have wronged rather than how wrong he actually was.

http://boards.420chan.org/m/src/1382546697570.gif

One of the best posts I've yet to see on these boards.

[Dryhtscipe]

Attacking Winterfell? Well, he had chosen his blood family. Would he be more honourable if he half asses it? Is he not honour bound to do his best to win? What happens if his family loses, again?

While you do make plenty of good points in an excellent post... this point right here?

Not one of them. Nobody told him to attack Winterfell. He chose to. Because of his enormous ego. Nothing more, nothing less.

There is also the fact that, not too put to fine a point on it, Theon was always a complete arsehole. This view has nothing to do with the Starks, really; it has to do with the fact that he treated people like dirt, constantly. He saw women as objects to use; he saw warriors as objects to dispose of on his route to kinghood. The only person who mattered to Theon, quite plainly, was Theon. Not to mention that when he didn't get his own way, he had a tendency to take it out on the nearest smallfolk available, preferably one with nice boobs.

The reason some people dislike Theon, I'm quite sure, is just because he was a dick.

I didn't even like the Starks much (except Arya, primarily because she reminds me of some characters from books in my childhood) - they're, heheheh, lionised far too much.

[DrunkSister]

Sorry but that author spent a bunch of time talking about how Theon couldn't recognize the HM since his hood covered his head. The hood was NOT up. It was flapping behind him.

The hooded cloak is flapping behind him, where the hood is is anybody's guess.

[shade2379]

Hey, I'm fairly new to SoIaF and very new to this forum - patience please. Also I'm repeating a lot stuff that's already been stated above, so apologies in advance.

Theon does act like a prick on a pretty regular basis and does some very vile things - including the murder of two children (two different children, yes, but from a moral standpoint that's inconsequential), Nevertheless I've grown very fond of him over the course of the series and feel compelled to add my two cents to his defense.

First off this is someone who's spent the second half of his life paying for the sins of his father. True, he's treated decently by the Starks, but at the same time he never truely a member of the family. He's not a ward in the same way Ned and Robert were wards to John Arryn or LF was a ward to Hoster Tully. He's a hostage, someone who may, at any point, be executed by his foster "father". That's a pretty traumatic situation for someone to grow up under, and the real kicker is he has absolutely no control over the situation. Whether or not he lives or dies depends not on his own behavior but the behavior of his sire, a man he no longer has any contact with and has already once proven himself prone to rebellion.

So then Theon returns to the Iron Islands, hoping to welcomed by his kindred, to experience a sense of homecoming after 10 years in exhile - and he recieves the exact opposite response. The few people who even recognize him treat him like garbage, or an outsider, somehow tainted by his prolonged (but involuntary) residence with the Starks. In the end, there's no place he fits in; no person with whom he doesn't feel the constant pressure to prove himself, no group in which he isn't marked as a black sheep. (I also get the sense that Theon's formative years on Pyke, even before his dislocation, were pretty miserable)

Now does this excuse Theon's crimes? By no means, but I do think these are mitigating factors. And of course, it should not be forgotten that though Theon commits many terrible sins, he also suffers terribly. He's subject to some of the worst brutality and dedgredation in a series infamous for scenes of brutality and degredation. Finally, unlike say, Ramsey Bolton or LF or Joffrey (outright fiends in my estimation) Theon has a conscience. Especially toward the end of DwD he shows himself capable of great guilt and contrition. He's already started to make amends by participating in the plot to rescue Jayne Poole (at great risk to his own person). For my own part, I'm really hoping he'll continue in this vein and at least partially redeem himself before bidding us goodbye. And I hope to God he doesn't backslide and become a compleat monster! That might be a deal breaker.

[Lord Damian]

Some ppl think one of the Miller boys might have been his son. But how do these 3 characters know it...

You may have been on to something as the Miller's wife used to have sexy time with theon (before she married) around the time she was about to marry. I tend to think it more about his closeness to the starks. Mance Rayder was good at reconaisance and would have noticed how close Theon was to the children( the spearwife). Mors I am sure was a frequent visitor and would notice (Mors as himself). The hooded man (Benjen?)

[Swordofthemornin]

First read I assumed and never had any other thought that it was the Stark's they were talking of. Read the thread title and after reading the different replies I still think the Stark's are the so-called "kin".

I think Rowans being sarcastic. It was plain to see how much Robb thought of Theon, at his side/counsel from the start of the war. Ned and Catelyn did take good care of him, theres no mention of the any similar level of harshness Catelyn afforded Jon Snow. Theons is also a "hostage" remember, Ned would have had to had that separation.

Fact is Theon is correct in that they were not his own blood. Though a "next of kin" interpretation it could be construed the Starks, which is my personal opinion.

Effectively he betrayed the people (the whole North) he had eaten, joked, played, slept with for the past 10 years.

[Lost Melnibonean]

The hooded cloak is flapping behind him, where the hood is is anybody's guess.

Wow, you're right. Duh. In the first Theon chapter in Clash, was his cloak ever described as "flapping?"

[Lee-Sensei]

While you do make plenty of good points in an excellent post... this point right here?

Not one of them. Nobody told him to attack Winterfell. He chose to. Because of his enormous ego. Nothing more, nothing less.

There is also the fact that, not too put to fine a point on it, Theon was always a complete arsehole. This view has nothing to do with the Starks, really; it has to do with the fact that he treated people like dirt, constantly. He saw women as objects to use; he saw warriors as objects to dispose of on his route to kinghood. The only person who mattered to Theon, quite plainly, was Theon. Not to mention that when he didn't get his own way, he had a tendency to take it out on the nearest smallfolk available, preferably one with nice boobs.

The reason some people dislike Theon, I'm quite sure, is just because he was a dick.

I didn't even like the Starks much (except Arya, primarily because she reminds me of some characters from books in my childhood) - they're, heheheh, lionised far too much.

Didn't he save Bran's life? And he never even considered betraying Robb and the Starks until he met up with his Balon. Yeah. Theon was a jerk. Just like most characters in the ASoIaF. He's the rule not the exception.

[The Sleeper]

snip

First a minor nitpick. "Traitor" refers to backnig the wrong side. "Turncloak" refers to changing sides in the middle of a conflict. If you recall at some point Davos is called (at White Harbor) "rebel, traitor and turncloak", Davos bristles only at the last and says that he had always been a king's man. The former two are certainly true, at least so far as someone who is on the other side is concerned.

While much of what you said I agree with, it is only half the part of the story. We see from his own POV that the reasons you gave are only half the truth and he uses them as rationalizations himself. Much of what motivates him is his own pride and arrogance. You also forget that apart from killing two innocent boys to cover up his failure, he also has his own men killed to cover up the secret and executes farlen to cover up the murders. While other factors have pushed him into the spiral, he makes every effort to go at it further.

Capturing Winterfell was a stroke of brilliance. Holding on to it against all reason, despite the excellent options Asha told him he had and the out she gave him speak volumes. It wasn't willingness to further his family's cause that motivated to take this action, but a fucked up mixture of ambition, desire to belong and sticking it up to the people who had held him hostage.

I'm not sure if he is supposed to be going through a redemption arc as well. He doesn't seem to repent his actions much, only what befell him and he realized that he went against the only person that ever gave a crap about him. It is intersting that as he originally killed two fake Starks, he now saves a fake one. I don't think he has changed much. His quest for self-validation is still what dirves him although it is far less ambitious.

The point of his arc is in my view, not redemption but a challenge to our views of retribution and I also think a challenge to the notion of whether suffering truly changes a person disposition.

[thegloriousedd]

I read a very long theory about a month ago on the hooded man in winterfell, but to make a long story short. One of the points made was that when theon killed the two boys he killed his son. I don't have any books with me but theon does admit to himself that he had sex with their mother.

[jet199]

And the miller's boys. About which he holds some blame, but he was again on the horns of a dilemma, and no war leader in the story has bloodless hands or did not choose the death of children at some point, directly or indirectly. Still, cold blooded murder of children doesn't get a pass.

...

One of the things I hate about his redemption arc is that he's buying into the narrative about himself that only really applies because of WHO he is supposed to have wronged rather than how wrong he actually was.

I think Theon saying he needed two heads is him still not taking responsibility. He was in the horns of a dilemma but that means he had choices. He also says he did it so people wouldn't laugh at him so it wasn't really a life or death dilemma. Unless a person is in a slavery type situation, do what you're told or die, then they have to take some responsibility. I don't mean they have to hate themselves and go into depression they just have to acknowledge it was their decision otherwise they are just going to keep repeating their mistakes and blaming circumstance (quite a few of the major characters in asoiaf do this).

For me this is the main thing he still needs to do to break good is to take responsibility for these murders, not the Stark betrayal. Until he says "I took the decision to kill those boys, I didn't have to do it and it was probably the wrong decision" Theon will always be the idiot youth who thought he could be Prince of Winterfell through force alone. I don't think that Theon is buying into the idea he betrayed his "real" family. I think he is going through all the choices he made to see where he went wrong. Facing up to the fact he betrayed Robb was actually pretty easy for him as it was a case of abandoning his one true friend which then left him at the mercy of false friends. The miller's boys, however, are still a sticking point for Theon as their deaths were due to a fault within his character. He cares too much about how others think of him and acts accordingly, from playing the smart guy with the Stark kids right up to the point of killing innocent people to instil fear. GRRM takes this to the extreme when Theon becomes enslaved to Ramsay's every whim and completely loses his own identity. With this mistake it is not just a question of seeing the cause and effect. He needs to change the way he thinks. So we may see Theon thinking about how lovely the Starks were but this is only because he is still avoiding the real problem.