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R + L = J v 63


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Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v 58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v 59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v 60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v 61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v 62" (thread sixty-two)

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I have no lead pipe in my Clue. :blushing:

You know until Dance the three eyed crow had been downplayed somewhat by Martin. But he is the one person with the ability to make things unfold the way he needs them to that crosses all the generations that would be needed. He would know how to wake dragons because he can learn that from the trees. Ancient wierwoods are immortal they live for ever, he can learn about Azor Ahai through them, he can view just about anything on any country he wants. If he needs someone to win a joust, it would be easy for him to make it happen. If he needs to place a thought in someones head or make someone not worry about doing something, like deposing his father, he can do it on a whim.

We know he understands the blood lines of Greenseers, it's first man blood isn't it. He is half Blackwood a house in the river lands rich with first man blood and sworn to the old gods. Bran, Jon, all the Stark children come from one of the oldest first men blood lines in the country. Who is the other known prophetic family? The Targaryens, it would be a hell of mix putting the two most magical lines in the world together. He knew it was a powerful combination because he is just that mix, first man and Targaryen. It's also suggested he can see the future and Bran as well.

"The hour grows late."

You're right. Bloodraven has the potential to be a character that's behind quite a few things that have happened so far, but I guess what we should be wondering is how far those greenseers are supposed to go. I think they're the only ones who can skinchange into people successfully, which is a pretty scary thought. Are they supposed to push bigger chess pieces in the right direction, or are they only allowed to do little things that benefits them/their goal?

Something to wonder, if you believe that he's also in the direwolves: Nymeria, is she moving from her own instinct with the making of the pack (and the eating of the Lannisters/Freys), or has she been given a nudge? Is he setting up a Wight-eating wolf pack to be used when the Other-puppets reach those lands she's in? I think you could go slightly crazy if you're starting to wonder what's been real, and what's been a hint in your head that you followed.

I think I've once seen a person state that they thought Arya had been influenced like that in a few decisions that she made. Unfortunately I don't have any quotes. If such a thing were to be true, I guess there truly is a reason behind the semi-madness she's gotten herself in? As usual, we can only wait until we see where her storyline is going to go/end. (And it better not end end. I need a Jon/Arya reunion right there, or before it. :crying: )

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This is also a question I've allready seen several people asking:

How can Jon be a half stark half Targaryen if he has black hair?

He is clearly Robert's son.

He has the Stark look because his mother was a Stark. I really don't see why that's so complicated. There are examples of other half-targ/half-something else who do not have the targ look: Rhaenys, Bittersteel, Baelor Breakspear, to name a few.

By that logic, someone should tell Ned that Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon aren't his, as neither of them looks like a Stark.

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My only observation, and keep in mind I ADORE Kit Harrington, is that the images from the graphic magazine show his features as more angular and more aquiline than the rest of the Stark males.

Kits features, while certainly handsome, seem a little more "baby faced."

This isn't the image from the graphics, (Frozenfire3 where are you?), but this a piece that makes me think this is a little more what he would look like. I also imagine his hair more straight.


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They do, you can see it especially through their eyes, but the nose is definitely more what you would think of as aristocratic aquiline, say compared to depictions of Brandon and Ned, whose features look a little more "brawny."

It's been pointed out that the Jon and Lyanna in the Graphic Novel of AGOT look like eachother.

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I thought Jon has brown hair and darker than the Stark grey eyes? He doesn't look like Robert either.

Yes; "Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black (...)"

And interestingly enough, Dunk describes Egg's eyes as "blue eyes, Dunk saw, very dark, almost purple." and as very dark in another instance.

People see what they expect to see, blue eyes are common so Dunk assumes Egg's are blue, Starks have grey eyes, it's what one expects to see when looking at Jon. I honestly would not be surprised if Jon's eyes appeared a little purple in the right light when closely observed.

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Purple eyes, like blonde hair, could be a recessive trait. It makes perfect sense for brown hair to override blonde, and for eyes to become a mix of grey and purple or even a new color entirely. Using Jon's appearance as evidence against R+L=J is ludicrous and shows a lack of basic genetics knowledge. This is directed at those who argue against it, obviously, not anyone here in particular.

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