R + L = J v 63

[Alia of the knife]

To: Princess Lyanna (i.e., SISTER wife)!

From: Princess Elia (i.e., SISTER wife)!

Dear Lyanna,

I am NOT coming back any time soon.

Rhaella is with me but she isn't coming back either - if you ask her, NEVER. I am working on it, though.

The Red Keep will be a very sad place to live in without my dear MIL (now our MIL).

I don't expect that you'll know it already but she's the only one who can put up with my (our) husband,

His Grace King Rhaegar when he's in one of his especially sad moods. What, you didn't know how bad those could be?

Ah, love is sweet, dearest Lyanna, but it cannot change one's nature. Anyway, Rhaella is the only one who can be trusted

not to kill herself with grief at the weeping of his harp. I think that's thanks to my (our) FIL,

the late and unmourned King Aerys. He's taught her to endure far worse.

I think Rhaella is having a tough case of 'now, I am a single woman, yay me!' syndrome.

There are two Dornish lords that are falling head over heels for her, one of them younger

than Rhaegar. Isn't it lovely? It cannot be expected to last forever, of course. I'll need her at KL!

I am sure the kids are in good hands with you, dear. It's good for you to have some practice

with what the life of a princess and mother really entails. You should have asked me beforehand.

Oh but you asked Rhaegar and he assured you it'll be all fun and adventures? So sorry, dear.

Rhaegar is all wise and wonderful but he isn't very practical. Again, I could have told you.

For now, Rhaella and I are staying here. We deserve a nice long holiday after being stuck with housesitting duty

the entire last year while you and our dear Rhaegar were, ahem, adventuring. And the house was quite big,

even if it's I who say so!

I have to run now, dear. We're having a party at the Water Gardens.

Oh, and what was that about Aldo? You need to hire some better spies, my dear.

Aldo fell out of favour last week. For now, I am weeping over my solitude at Arthur Dayne's shoulder...

and what a nice broad shoulder it is!

We'll come back, never bother. I can't miss my own coronation!

We'll bring you some nice presents! Now, go kiss the kids from me.

SINCERELY

Princess "Life is sweet" Elia

Dear Princess "Life is sweet" Elia,

Then I demand a raise, or a cost-of-living adjustment. The expense report you based my allowance on was bogus, and didn't account for everyone's kids.

Sincerely,

Princess "I've been had in more ways than one," Lyanna.

[Alia of the knife]

This again?

Aemon in the study with a revolver.

;)

:bowdown:

[Alia of the knife]

New to the forum and the theory and I like it.

To me, the best piece of evidence for the R+L=J Theory is the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy.

You all know the conversation, so I won't repeat it here.

But here's a question that I'd ask naysayers: Why else would the three Kingsguards still be at the Tower of Joy after Rhaegar and Aerys were dead? Wouldn't their oath compel them to travel across the sea to Viserys and guard him since he's lawfully the heir to the Targaryen dynasty?

Even if they were supposed honorable enough to follow their crown prince's last order to the death, it would be a violation of their oaths as Kingsguards. Their duty to their king should be priority over everything else including their personal honor as pointed out when Jamie objected to Aerys raping the queen.

So why are that at the Tower of Joy? The most logical answer is that they're there to defend Rhaegar's unborn child...a child who to their knowledge is the true heir to the Targaryen dynasty. It's also very stupid for Rhaegar to not bring your three best warriors with you when you go to war. Why would he leave them with some Stark girl unless she was pregnant with his child? I'd personally have taken at least one of them with me and left two with Lyanna, but why else would Rhaegar leave out three ummatched trump cards? If they had gone with him, then Robert may not have been able to touch Rhaegar.

Just my thoughts...that's all...

I think because at THAT point, Aegon being the next in line to be king, the question is why Rhaegar didn't take the three with him to ensure his victory?

They stayed in the end because Jon was the last true heir, but the best defense would have been Rhaegars victory. Even if Lyanna still died in childbirth, he could have secured the Kingdom, and went back for Jon.

Hightowers statement to Ned, alluding to the fact that had they been there, Aerys at least would still be king seems to reflect some frustration that bound by their oath to Rhaegar, they couldn't leave the TOJ.

What does everyone make of the Reed's perplexity that Bran had never heard the KotLT story? Why did they expect Ned to have told him? Family lore? A snapshot of his aunt's character? Or was it a clue to readers that Bran SHOULD have known about it, thus it bears a little closer scrutiny?

Does it follow, then, that bc the Reed's know about Lyanna & Harrenhal, they? know R+L=J

I think it's as you say, it's the Authors way of giving the reader a clue by the reaction of the family who would be the next best source of truth for Jons parentage, and R+L.

It also alludes to, in the surprised reaction of the Reeds that the Stark children have not been told, but believe the Berantheon "spin," that Ned had been expected to tell the truth, and are surprised he did not, which also gives some nuance to Benjens almost aggressive stance in telling Jon that it was a good thing he was not his father.

I've always read that as Benjens way of differentiating himself from Ned's decisions regarding Jon. If Benjen had not been bound by the Wall, he might have fought for Jons birthright when he came of age, rather than hide him as Benjen may have had the same "wolfs blood" as Brandon and Lyanna.

Remember, when Ned relates that story about Rickard, his children and the "wolfs blood," Ned is left out of that equation, though he was Roberts best general, and likely did kill Ser Arther without any "cheating" on Howlands part.

[King Tyrion VIII]

What year did Benjen take the black? I was thinking maybe an argument between him and Ned over Jon couldve led to him joining the NW.

[Alia of the knife]

What year did Benjen take the black? I was thinking maybe an argument between him and Ned over Jon couldve led to him joining the NW.

Not sure, but that is something that had not occurred to me.

Good call, definitely a different angle.

[Ser Creighton]

Not sure, but that is something that had not occurred to me.

Good call, definitely a different angle.

Ben was a couple years younger than Lyanna, and was sure Jon was to young to join the Watch. I would guess it was a couple of years before he left for the Wall. He was around 13-14 when the Rebellion ended. The Greyjoy rebellion, was Robb The Lord of Winterfell while his dad was away back then? I think he was. So between the two rebellions Ben went to the wall but I can't imagine Ned let his 13-14 year old brother run off to the wall.

[Ser Creighton]

The answer to the clue killer is Sansa in the Ballroom with a poisoned lemon cake. Professor Baelish was the unfortunate victim.

[Ghost's Shadow]

I always thought Benjen joined around Jon's age, that's why he can say it's too early for Jon to join since he missed out on everything he lists that he thinks Jon should do.

PS: It was Messer in Ballistics with methylene blue.

[Anath]

Dear Princess "Life is sweet" Elia,

Then I demand a raise, or a cost-of-living adjustment. The expense report you based my allowance on was bogus, and didn't account for everyone's kids.

Sincerely,

Princess "I've been had in more ways than one," Lyanna.

Dear Disgruntled Princess,

You seem to be misled, dearest. I had nothing to do with your allowance. This was our sweet Rhaegar's decision. And everyone knows that there's only one woman he's ever loved and sadly, it is not me. He didn't trust me with calculating your allowance. He took his mother's council. Now, I might have told Rhaella a word or three but, I am sad to say it, she's furious with you for ruining her golden, err, silver boy even without my hypothetical interference. I'll speak to her as soon as I can catch her on her own - without those lords who drool after her. Meanwhile, their number increased to five, so it won't be easy.

And besides, dearest, may I gently suggest that you could have just told your brothers 'no'? I don't know about Cat but my sweet Ashara wouldn't have let her kid out in the cold simply because you don't want it.

I'm afraid you've really been had in myriad ways, dearest. When I come back, we'll start a brief 'A Queen: Protect Your Ass and Your Assets" course, I promise.

All my love,

Princess "This is even better than I thought" Elia

[Alia of the knife]

Dear Disgruntled Princess,

You seem to be misled, dearest. I had nothing to do with your allowance. This was our sweet Rhaegar's decision. And everyone knows that there's only one woman he's ever loved and sadly, it is not me. He didn't trust me with calculating your allowance. He took his mother's council. Now, I might have told Rhaella a word or three but, I am sad to say it, she's furious with you for ruining her golden, err, silver boy even without my hypothetical interference. I'll speak to her as soon as I can catch her on her own - without those lords who drool after her. Meanwhile, their number increased to five, so it won't be easy.

And besides, dearest, may I gently suggest that you could have just told your brothers 'no'? I don't know about Cat but my sweet Ashara wouldn't have let her kid out in the cold simply because you don't want it.

I'm afraid you've really been had in myriad ways, dearest. When I come back, we'll start a brief 'A Queen: Protect Your Ass and Your Assets" course, I promise.

All my love,

Princess "This is even better than I thought" Elia

:laugh: We could go all day. I suppose I am moved to find some humor in a story so horrifically, and heart-breakingly tragic. But on that note of historical figures, I don't know how I ever missed this BBC show, "Pieces of 8.0."

It stars Brian Blessed, one of my favorite British Actors aside from John Hurt and Derek Jacobi, who also appeared in "I Claudius." Blessed and Mark Addy both have similar "bombastic" characteristics, but the synopsis of the story is that he plays Henry the VII, who with his last wife, Catherine Parr survive into modern times, along with the King of France and Pope Gregory, and they bedevil each other on Twitter and Facebook.

Catherine Parr seems to have adapted and dresses in modern styles while Henry pretty much stays the same. Very funny.

I always thought Benjen joined around Jon's age, that's why he can say it's too early for Jon to join since he missed out on everything he lists that he thinks Jon should do.

PS: It was Messer in Ballistics with methylene blue.

The prevailing theory that Benjen took the Black out of sort of guilt is still a strong theory, but the alternative idea that Benjen, young though he may have been, might have disagreed with Ned on Jons future is interesting too.

The adult Benjen that we see doesn't necessarily strike me as someone who exhibits "contrite" mannerisms, but still seems to be carrying strongly-held beliefs regarding Jon.

I wonder if it's possible if Ned didn't banish Benjen to the Wall for whatever complicity he might have had in R+L, AND to keep him from scheming, plotting, and talking?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

It stars Brian Blessed, one of my favorite British Actors aside from John Hurt and Derek Jacobi, who also appeared in "I Claudius." Blessed and Mark Addy both have similar "bombastic" characteristics, but the synopsis of the story is that he plays Henry the VII, who with his last wife, Catherine Parr survive into modern times, along with the King of France and Pope Gregory, and they bedevil each other on Twitter and Facebook.

Catherine Parr seems to have adapted and dresses in modern styles while Henry pretty much stays the same. Very funny.

I don't know how I missed that either! I love Brian Blessed, although my favorite role of his is Richard IV in Black Adder :lol:

[Mladen]

To: Lyanna Stark

From: His Grace Aerys Targaryen, King of Andals, Rhoynar and First Men Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, popularly called Mad King

Subject: Welcome to the family

My dearest second daughter-in-law,

Allow me to congratulate you on the happy events that took place this month. I was so joyous and proud to hear that my boy, whom I have doubted for so long, has returned to Targaryen old ways and proved that his papa was right all along. For which father wouldn't be so excited to find out his son has now two wives. Between us, I hope you will prove to be more high maintenance than my dear first daughter-in-law, and that you will occupy my dearest boy in activities that will take his mind from plotting against me. I am forever in your debt for you did amazing job in pointing out that my son would be as good and righteous King as I am, and that there is no need for replacement.

Further more, I have the saddest duty to inform you about tragic events that occurred after you eloped with my dearest son. Your brother, blessed be his memory, has come to King's Landing and was arrested on terrorist charges. My dear, I did everything in my power to show him the righteousness of my ways, but he was so stubborn in getting some sword. Unfortunately, in his attempt to catch a sword his necklace, you know the one you gave him, goit stuck to a machinery I brought from Free Cities. Sadly, he was pushing harder and harder, until he met all his forefathers. But, my dear, that isn't all. Your father also came in King's Landing to represent his son. Due to unknown circumstances, your father had died from severe case of dehydration. Some of my Kingsguard knights watched it, and they were so sick of grief, they actually got sick. But, I hope these tragic events, of whom I am wrongly accused of participating will not interfere in our loving father/daughter relationship. For, trust me, I have never been so grateful to anyone as I am to you...

You, now, only father,

Aerys

[Anath]

To: Rhaegar Targaryen

From: Her Grace Rhaella Targaryen. Queen of Andals, Rhoynar and so on, you know the style

Subject: A family visit

My dearest son,

I miss you terribly. Without you, the Red Keep is even a sadder place than with you in it. There are some lords constantly coming and going, and looking for you. I think they miss you, too. Actually, your new goodfamily pretty much died out of sadness of not being to contact you.

Things are not looking good, my dearest Rhaegar. The children are uncontrollable. Elia keeps crying when she thinks there's no one watching. I am pretty much pissed off with her. I tried to get Lewyn to take her and the children to Dorne so they could become dear Doran's problem but your sweet father has become quite attached to them and wouldn't let them go, so I have to put up with them.

Oh and dearest? This prophecy you've been talking about since you were a child? You are aware that it only says "The PWWP would be born of Aerys and Rhaella's line", right? There's no mentioning of you there. And since your father has recently become so fond of my company, I suggest you get your sorry ass here ASAP before someone else steals the prophecy from you, Besides, I could really use some help since the KG would not meddle into little family quarrels.

Your (angry) mother

Rhaella

[Ygrain]

New to the forum and the theory and I like it.

To me, the best piece of evidence for the R+L=J Theory is the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy.

You all know the conversation, so I won't repeat it here.

But here's a question that I'd ask naysayers: Why else would the three Kingsguards still be at the Tower of Joy after Rhaegar and Aerys were dead? Wouldn't their oath compel them to travel across the sea to Viserys and guard him since he's lawfully the heir to the Targaryen dynasty?

Even if they were supposed honorable enough to follow their crown prince's last order to the death, it would be a violation of their oaths as Kingsguards. Their duty to their king should be priority over everything else including their personal honor as pointed out when Jamie objected to Aerys raping the queen.

So why are that at the Tower of Joy? The most logical answer is that they're there to defend Rhaegar's unborn child...a child who to their knowledge is the true heir to the Targaryen dynasty. It's also very stupid for Rhaegar to not bring your three best warriors with you when you go to war. Why would he leave them with some Stark girl unless she was pregnant with his child? I'd personally have taken at least one of them with me and left two with Lyanna, but why else would Rhaegar leave out three ummatched trump cards? If they had gone with him, then Robert may not have been able to touch Rhaegar.

Just my thoughts...that's all...

Indeed. Yet, some people will argue to the death that they also swore to obey orders and that the vow to follow orders is somehow on the same level as the vow to protect the king, that they cannot choose, know the Targs are done, commit suicide fighting... Oh, and let's not forget it's-just-a-dream-argument. Here you go the content of all the ToJ battles in a nutshell :-)

[Anath]

Indeed. Yet, some people will argue to the death that they also swore to obey orders and that the vow to follow orders is somehow on the same level as the vow to protect the king, that they cannot choose, know the Targs are done, commit suicide fighting... Oh, and let's not forget it's-just-a-dream-argument. Here you go the content of all the ToJ battles in a nutshell :-)

Personally, I think they were protecting their new king. Yet it just occurred to me that they couldn't have known it would be a king. Jon was either born almost immediately before Ned's arrival or shortly after.

How could have the KG known that the child would be a king and not a princess? As far as we can say, Rhaegar probably expected a Visenya. No one there could have known whether the baby would be a boy. For all the KG knew, after the sack of KL Viserys might have become their new king, yet they stood to guard Lyanna and her baby.

I'd say Rhaegar's orders were pretty important. The KG couldn't have known that they were not breaking their vow to protect the king right to the moment the child was born. There definitely was some sort of conflict and they obviously chose what path to follow since it was not clear cut.

[Ygrain]

Personally, I think they were protecting their new king. Yet it just occurred to me that they couldn't have known it would be a king. Jon was either born almost immediately before Ned's arrival or shortly after.

How could have the KG known that the child would be a king and not a princess? As far as we can say, Rhaegar probably expected a Visenya. No one there could have known whether the baby would be a boy. For all the KG knew, after the sack of KL Viserys might have become their new king, yet they stood to guard Lyanna and her baby.

I'd say Rhaegar's orders were pretty important. The KG couldn't have known that they were not breaking their vow to protect the king right to the moment the child was born. There definitely was some sort of conflict and they obviously chose what path to follow since it was not clear cut.

Actually, if we are right in our estimate that Lyanna's feverish condition refers to childbed fever, then Jon was born a good few days prior Ned arrived and the KG knew clearly where their priorities were.

[The guy from the Vale]

Personally, I think they were protecting their new king. Yet it just occurred to me that they couldn't have known it would be a king. Jon was either born almost immediately before Ned's arrival or shortly after.

How could have the KG known that the child would be a king and not a princess? As far as we can say, Rhaegar probably expected a Visenya. No one there could have known whether the baby would be a boy. For all the KG knew, after the sack of KL Viserys might have become their new king, yet they stood to guard Lyanna and her baby.

I'd say Rhaegar's orders were pretty important. The KG couldn't have known that they were not breaking their vow to protect the king right to the moment the child was born. There definitely was some sort of conflict and they obviously chose what path to follow since it was not clear cut.

Jon was probably born 1 to 2 weeks before Ned's arrival. Lyanna died of a fever, probably puerperal fever, which kills the mother withing that frame after giving birth.

ETA: :ninja:'d by Ygrain. As usual :D

[Ygrain]

:ninja: :P

[Anath]

Actually, if we are right in our estimate that Lyanna's feverish condition refers to childbed fever, then Jon was born a good few days prior Ned arrived and the KG knew clearly where their priorities were.

Makes sense. Actually, I meant "immediately before" as "a few days before Ned's arrival". So, anyone estimated how long it took Ned to arrive at the ToJ? How much time did the news have to arrive before him?

[The guy from the Vale]

Makes sense. Actually, I meant "immediately before" as "a few days before Ned's arrival". So, anyone estimated how long it took Ned to arrive at the ToJ? How much time did the news have to arrive before him?

Most estimates put Ned's arrival at two weeks to a month after the Sack. Meaning, news had at best two weeks to travel to the KG.